CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 5)

[pussinboots]

Willhire89 said:

You wait 146 months and come up with that as a maiden post ......top lurking

I wonder what the record is?

[TheJimi]

monkfish1 said:

pussinboots said:

If everyone wore masks and practised a bit of social distancing and good hygiene, then life could continue as normal. We don't need a full lockdown. I'm not sure why so many people refuse to wear one. We don't need concrete proof of their effectiveness. Wearing a mask is only a very mild inconvenience.

I think you are clutching at straws.

Compliance is high. Very high.

Lots of people grumbling, but still complying.

If you genuinely think that the few % not complying would have made the virus go away, you are deluded.

Yup, here is Scotland, compliance with mask use is very very high - with quite a lot of people choosing to wear them outdoors as well. I refuse to believe that infections are due to a very small minority not wearing masks.

[irc]

Usual good stuff on daily updsate at https://lockdownsceptics.org/

What jumped out at me was this take on the magic charts being used to justify people losuing their jobs in hospitality etc etc.




For example that one. Ooh! Hospital admissions up! Hide behind the sofa!

"But what this chart doesn’t show – and which no journalist asked about, unfortunately – is that Covid admissions in the North West are no higher than admissions would be for other respiratory illnesses in a normal year. Yes, Covid admissions are up, but admissions for pneumonia are down. Indeed, hospital admissions for all respiratory illnesses in the North West were about half the five-year average at the end of September. What looks to be happening is that elderly patients who would normally be admitted for flu and pneumonia are being admitted for COVID-19 instead. Which means that hospitals in the North West are nowhere close to being overwhelmed. If that’s the rationale for placing Greater Manchester in Tier 3 – protect the NHS – it doesn’t stack up."

[Andy888]

So with Northern Ireland in the midst of a country-wide 4 week Circuit Break, the ex Finance Minister for the country speaks out about "Flimsy Evidence".


"The NI Chamber's chief executive Simon Hamilton said much of the evidence appeared to be "anecdotal" and posed "massive questions" for the executive."


Be good if he ruffles up a few feathers but like most, I'm sure his opinion will be mostly ignored. Cos you know, people dying blah blah.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-546...

[EddieSteadyGo]

pussinboots said:

... To me it's just common sense that wearing masks may help reduce infection rates, and at worst does very little. The alternatives are either harsh lockdowns, or large number of deaths. I think the choice is clear?

I'm afraid it isn't as simple as that.

The downsides could be giving a false sense of security, decreasing the chances of someone properly social distancing as they believe they are "protected", together with poor handing procedures + poor mask fitting which could increase the method of some ways of becoming infected.

It could also increase the changes of people with symptomatic covid continuing their normal daily activity as they believe they are complying with the rules.

So you need to weigh in these downsides when making public policy. And judging by the increasing rate of new cases, these downsides could well be a factor why mask wearing doesn't align with suppressing new cases.

[MikeT66]

Taylor James said:

This thread is getting close to redundant. No minds are changed and it has become an echo chamber for people to agree with each other that the current strategy is wrong. Yet we're on volume 5.

Apologies for selective quoting.

You are right about that statement, though. As evidence and other professional voices have emerged, I'm not sure I could say that anyone's pro-lockdown stance has changed or even questioned. People have invested their whole belief system into both sides of the argument. I've certainly not been convinced by any pro-lockdown/mask evidence (not that there's a lot ).

However, the thread has kept me sane and my often incoherent ramblings and rages have at least helped me let off steam. It's good to know there are other voices out there other than the government/MSM angle - and long may that continue.

[Twinfan]

pussinboots said:

I think it's very much cultural. If you look at the East Asian countries, wearing masks is much more prevalent. Although difficult to prove any causal link, the Asian countries are doing far better in controlling the virus than the West. These countries are much more densely populated and have not instituted the kind of lockdowns to the same extent as here. They have not made mask wearing mandatory because they don't need to - it's become a social norm. To me it's just common sense that wearing masks may help reduce infection rates, and at worst does very little. The alternatives are either harsh lockdowns, or large number of deaths. I think the choice is clear?

Another view is that the Asian countries have been exposed to more similar viruses in the past therefore they have a level of immunity already.

So under that theory, it has cock all to do with masks.

[V1nce Fox]

MikeT66 said:

Taylor James said:

This thread is getting close to redundant. No minds are changed and it has become an echo chamber for people to agree with each other that the current strategy is wrong. Yet we're on volume 5.

Apologies for selective quoting.

You are right about that statement, though. As evidence and other professional voices have emerged, I'm not sure I could say that anyone's pro-lockdown stance has changed or even questioned. People have invested their whole belief system into both sides of the argument. I've certainly not been convinced by any pro-lockdown/mask evidence (not that there's a lot ).

However, the thread has kept me sane and my often incoherent ramblings and rages have at least helped me let off steam. It's good to know there are other voices out there other than the government/MSM angle - and long may that continue.

Agreed. I've found this thread very reassuring.

[richardxjr]

pussinboots said:

The alternatives (to mask wearing) are either harsh lockdowns, or large number of deaths. I think the choice is clear?

No, no it's not clear.

It's a virus. Not deadly for 99.x% of us, and wearing a mask or having harsh lockdowns ain't gonna see it go away. This isn't the mask thread ty the way, this is the cure worse than the disease thread. We are concerned about the collateral damage in a world where, increasingly, only covid cases matter.

[Ntv]

Twinfan said:

MDMetal said:

Clearly we should do whatever we can to ensure nobody needlessly dies from any cause but we surely at a moral level can't start inflicting death and pain and suffering on people who would otherwise be "fine" to resolve an emergent crisis.

This is the crux of the issue to me. Transferring the pain, suffering and death onto a different group of people to the group it's directly affecting is completely unacceptable.

Very true

And there is no moral equivalence between C amount of harm as a result of an act of god, and X amount of harm as a result of wilful action by politicians

[johnboy1975]

isaldiri said:

JagLover said:

If Coronavirus carries you off when you reach that point then it is a natural end to a life hopefully well lived, not something to be feared or avoided.

All very true but that's a rather big 'if' there isn't it? If covid was simply bopping off oldies that were going to die soon as is often said here, we should have been seeing far lower excess deaths over summer into now.

We haven't and given 50+k excess deaths happened over March to June, that 'if' doesn't seem quite so plausible looking at what has happened subsequently.

I think, from looking at stats, deaths have been tailing off over the past few years. Basically, we are keeping people alive for longer, and the deaths are falling to pretty much record lows, even accounting for s growing population. All well and good on paper, but that's a very rickety house of cards to build. Something like a pandemic would smash it to pieces......

Hopefully we can rebuild. Not a new normal. An old normal but with enhancements (technology).

My hope us 2021 is a record year for growth and we put all this behind us.

My fear is that when we emerged from this in 2024 there is pretty much nothing left of the old normal, and unemployment rates are still at elevated levels

[CABC]

Twinfan said:

pussinboots said:

I think it's very much cultural. If you look at the East Asian countries, wearing masks is much more prevalent. Although difficult to prove any causal link, the Asian countries are doing far better in controlling the virus than the West. These countries are much more densely populated and have not instituted the kind of lockdowns to the same extent as here. They have not made mask wearing mandatory because they don't need to - it's become a social norm. To me it's just common sense that wearing masks may help reduce infection rates, and at worst does very little. The alternatives are either harsh lockdowns, or large number of deaths. I think the choice is clear?

Another view is that the Asian countries have been exposed to more similar viruses in the past therefore they have a level of immunity already.

So under that theory, it has cock all to do with masks.

i can believe that masks stop infected people spreading the disease, to a degree. However, there's a lot more to low mortality in places like Vietnam (is it 6?) than masks. too many people jumping to hard conclusions way too early. media could investigate causality a bit more, at least to open the discussion.

[anonymous-user]

When the show graphs they should show the last 5 years before as well, to give an honest comparison.

[Jordan210]

O F off Kier we dont need a circuit break

[MDMetal]

The Spruce Goose said:

When the show graphs they should show the last 5 years before as well, to give an honest comparison.

Hows that going to help them make their points? :P

[grumbledoak]

pussinboots said:

If everyone wore masks and practised a bit of social distancing and good hygiene, then life could continue as normal. We don't need a full lockdown. I'm not sure why so many people refuse to wear one. We don't need concrete proof of their effectiveness. Wearing a mask is only a very mild inconvenience.

It is genuinely educational.

Just how old some of these bot accounts are.

[Boringvolvodriver]

Jordan210 said:

O F off Kier we dont need a circuit break

We can only hope that if Labour are wanting one, the Tories will say no!

[grumbledoak]

As Ireland gets locked down for weeks and weeks this is apparently Mater hospital, Dublin, on Friday 16th -
https://twitter.com/Scifiscreen/status/13177733723...

All looks normal.

For a zombie movie.

[anonymous-user]

The Spruce Goose said:

When the show graphs they should show the last 5 years before as well, to give an honest comparison.

I wouldn’t hold your breath!

[B'stard Child]

pussinboots said:

Willhire89 said:

You wait 146 months and come up with that as a maiden post ......top lurking

I wonder what the record is?

I think I can help a mate of mine on here who reads on here every day

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/profile.asp?me...

1 Post in 212 months (17 and 1/2 years)

And the post wasn't actually a post but a wiki entry