CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 5)
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
TonkerThe Times article alludes to papers it has seen about these decisions. These will look very bad with the benefit of hindsight.
In March, I could see how and why these things were being advised, no one knew what was coming, but after mid April I definitely think we should have got back to how we normally function in the NHS.
Easter weekend was the moment I thought we have got this wrong, we have over reacted, and I have done ever since.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That is exactly what it was. The Govt wanted to avoid the distressing scenes we saw from Italy. However, they chose to do so by ruthlessly triaging behind the scenes so the really sick people never even made it to hospital.
This is one of those things that are brutal, but could make sense in the 'fog of war'.
Unfortunately, they refused to pivot when it became clear that millions of younger people were not getting sick. They maintained the strategy right through the lockdown, building the Nightingales and then never using them. Maintaining restrictions to show they never intended to use them.
We are still in that strategy now. They have never once acknowledged that the need for hospitalisation was less than expected. Because that would call the lockdown into question. So we continue with the charade and people continue to die to protect the NHS.
pneumothorax said:
I still think that the big thing we could have done in early March that could have changed what's happened since to the NHS was dedicated hospitals for cases. It's an idea that has many easily seen flaws, but it would imo have made a big difference to the overall death rate (collateral ones mainly)
I think you are bang on. The reason COVID puts healthcare capacity under pressure is infection control. More resources are being used to keep people away from COVID patients than on treatment.Saweep said:
johnboy1975 said:
b0rk said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
What’s interesting is that none of journals have come out and said why they’re not prepared to publish, is the study flawed in some way? The answer being inconvenient would surely not see publication withheld. After all the now discredited MMR / autism study was first published in the lancet.
Surely the paper and its findings are of scientific interest, and thus everyone in that community wants it publishing and analysing??
Me and my quaint old fashioned common sense view of how the world should work is taking a battering. Not for the first time during this pandemic
I am going to post an article from this morning again, because I think it has been missed and it is quite extraordinary.
Sweden has just recorded its lowest ever all cause death toll for Sept:
https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/10/24/how-dead...
Its not just that they have no excess deaths. Less people died in Sweden last month than in any previous year.
They have no mask mandates and nothing even remotely close to our lockdown.
It does not look as if October is going to be any different:
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explor...
But hey .. lets continue to ignore them.
Sweden has just recorded its lowest ever all cause death toll for Sept:
https://sebastianrushworth.com/2020/10/24/how-dead...
Its not just that they have no excess deaths. Less people died in Sweden last month than in any previous year.
They have no mask mandates and nothing even remotely close to our lockdown.
It does not look as if October is going to be any different:
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explor...
But hey .. lets continue to ignore them.
ORD said:
Of the 5 or 6 doctors and 2 nurses I know well, only 1 says he will take the vaccine if it’s voluntary.
The usual NHS policy and terms and conditions are that vaccinations are compulsory for some roles but not all. That of course does not take into account pressure that can be applied by management.The NHS is overwhelmingly pro-vax. Anyone objecting is likely to get a very tough time in one form or another. Speaking out about it will get you fired or referred to the HCPC/GMC.
isaldiri said:
Yes I remember you did mention that previously but you might have misread my post slightly. I suppose I am just wondering if the triaging to try to prevent treatment that you did see had continued post hospital admission into another set of decisions to try to avoid ICU as I would still have thought there's something further ICU was capable of providing help for covid patients between whatever that was available in a normal ward and full blown invasive ventilation. Or would ICU always mean ventilation? However given Boris was put into ICU but without ventilation I'd always assumed ICU had a couple more tricks up their sleeve...
Yep, Boris was treated (supported really) with NIV (non invasive ventilation) as were many of my Patients, they often had bipap or simply 02 via a mask. Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 25th October 17:18
ICU has many other tricks though. 02 supply is just one of them, It's the ability the environment gives you to really monitor Patients closely that saves lives, it means that you can make fairly dramatic medical interventions and see if they work or not, but almost as importantly, that the treatment can be tolerated, ie it's not worse than the disease.
df76 said:
The Spruce Goose said:
pocty said:
It still amazes me how many people still don't know how harmful the flu jab is.
Go on then how harmful is a flu jab?Elysium said:
I think you are bang on. The reason COVID puts healthcare capacity under pressure is infection control. More resources are being used to keep people away from COVID patients than on treatment.
I also think that it was illogical that we did not do this at the beginning, when we actually thought the IFR was so high.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Another illustration of why I regard NHS management as the most incompetent I have ever seen.They have a policy, strategy and procedure document for everything. Once we get to having to take some responsibility and solve a problem - slope shouldered paralysis. Here we are, six months on and still bleating and unprepared. There'll be some strategy documents floating about though.
Elysium said:
pneumothorax said:
I still think that the big thing we could have done in early March that could have changed what's happened since to the NHS was dedicated hospitals for cases. It's an idea that has many easily seen flaws, but it would imo have made a big difference to the overall death rate (collateral ones mainly)
I think you are bang on. The reason COVID puts healthcare capacity under pressure is infection control. More resources are being used to keep people away from COVID patients than on treatment.How do you keep your covid free hospital covud free? By doing exactly the sort of checks and cleaning that has slowed the NHS to a crawl. If you are arguing against testing and cleaning, I doubt you will stay covid free for long. The obvious problem with an asymptomatic case is potential to spread it to others who may not be so lucky to get an asymptomatic or even mild dose
Seeing as Sweden gets a lot of mentions, how did they do it? And the US? Spain? Italy? France? Etc
If covid had run rampant through hospitals, could we be looking at even more deaths?
Taylor James said:
Another illustration of why I regard NHS management as the most incompetent I have ever seen.
They have a policy, strategy and procedure document for everything. Once we get to having to take some responsibility and solve a problem - slope shouldered paralysis. Here we are, six months on and still bleating and unprepared. There'll be some strategy documents floating about though.
Absolutely. They have a policy, strategy and procedure document for everything. Once we get to having to take some responsibility and solve a problem - slope shouldered paralysis. Here we are, six months on and still bleating and unprepared. There'll be some strategy documents floating about though.
johnboy1975 said:
The problem as you say is easy to see. But much harder to do anything about. I'm not saying "ok well let's do nothing for 6 months" is an acceptable answer (government's solution, pretty much)
How do you keep your covid free hospital covud free? By doing exactly the sort of checks and cleaning that has slowed the NHS to a crawl. If you are arguing against testing and cleaning, I doubt you will stay covid free for long. The obvious problem with an asymptomatic case is potential to spread it to others who may not be so lucky to get an asymptomatic or even mild dose
Seeing as Sweden gets a lot of mentions, how did they do it? And the US? Spain? Italy? France? Etc
If covid had run rampant through hospitals, could we be looking at even more deaths?
"If covid had run rampant through hospitals, could we be looking at even more deaths?""How do you keep your covid free hospital covud free? By doing exactly the sort of checks and cleaning that has slowed the NHS to a crawl. If you are arguing against testing and cleaning, I doubt you will stay covid free for long. The obvious problem with an asymptomatic case is potential to spread it to others who may not be so lucky to get an asymptomatic or even mild dose
Seeing as Sweden gets a lot of mentions, how did they do it? And the US? Spain? Italy? France? Etc
If covid had run rampant through hospitals, could we be looking at even more deaths?
I think it did anyway.
A respectful newspaper article about yesterdays protest in London
The Express said:
If this very British Covid rebellion spreads no power in the world will stop it
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1351854/UK-lockdown-rules-covid-19-coronavirus-latest-news-what-is-tier-3-tier-2-tier-1pneumothorax said:
Elysium said:
I think you are bang on. The reason COVID puts healthcare capacity under pressure is infection control. More resources are being used to keep people away from COVID patients than on treatment.
I also think that it was illogical that we did not do this at the beginning, when we actually thought the IFR was so high.https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-reestablish...
Deep Thought said:
Are we really that close to having a "vaccine" that its likely that they will be in a position to start rolling it out to NHS staff before Christmas (which gives them about 6 weeks...?)
They might be, might not be safe though. NHS staff who find themselves pushed by their department managers to be the guinea pigs will do well to remember the H1N1 vaccine side effects.https://www.buzzfeed.com/shaunlintern/these-nhs-st...
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff