CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 5)

[isaldiri]

Elysium said:

I am more than happy to debate things with people who behave fairly and reasonably, but you just misrepresent, exaggerate and distort.
It’s ridiculous.

Pot meet the kettle.

You are right about the last bit of your post with regards to rather a lot of the certainties based on mistruths and wild extrapolations you constantly spew as absolute fact.

[Elysium]

johnboy1975 said:

Sophisticated Sarah said:

LeighW said:

More evidence that the cure is worse than the disease:

From London Ambulance Service NHS Trust, "Sadly, the number of suicide and attempted suicide incidents we attend are increasing.
Our crews now attend an average of 37 suicides or attempted suicides per day, compared to 22 in 2019 and 17 five years ago"

37 per day in London alone.

Tallies with what my wife is seeing at the hospital think I mentioned the suicide of a young woman who’d tested positive for Covid despite not having symptoms.

So thats a covid death then

Although Isaldari pointed out the difference between PHE reporting (death within 28 days of a positive test) and ONS (is covid an underlying cause of death?)

So hopefully ONS would not record it as such

The ONS and PHE would record it as a COVID death. The death certificate would not show COVID as a main or underlying cause of death, but it would almost certainly be mentioned and so included in the tally.

[Red Devil]

Harry H said:

JagLover said:

It is not a "big mistake" as all the data shows that for the majority it accelerates deaths rather than causes them. Hence "with" rather than "of".

Out of all the deaths recorded so far only just over a thousand didn't have a serious comorbidity. It may not be a matter of months that Covid accelerated their death, but if it was going to happen anyway in the next year or so then a more realistic portrayal is "with" rather than "of".

50% of those who died in carehomes had dementia for example
https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/news/2020-07-03/ons-...

Once you get to that stage it is time to go.

This is what I've been trying to get to the bottom of. Where did you get this data ? And of those thousand deaths what was the age groups?

Why is nobody in the main stream media shouting about this if true?.

I try and dish out this type of argument to all the sheeple but they keep coming back, if this it true why are most other governments in the western world behaving the same as ours.

PeteinSQ said:

Can I ask though what people on here think is motivating this (and just about every other) government to pursue these strategies? A lot of people seem to imply (or outright claim) that there is some dark reason behind all this. This idea about the great big reset for example.

Is that what you believe?

Personally I think the government doesn't know what to do for the best, is fumbling around desperately hoping a vaccine will be along before too long and praying they don't go bankrupt before then.

If anyone thinks the reset is imaginary they need to get real. Klaus Schwab. If you don't know who he is you really should get up to speed pdq. I'll leave this direct quote of his here.

"The pandemic represents a rare but narrow window of opportunity to reflect, reimagine, and reset our world".

This is all about manipulation. The mechanism is simple. Create a climate of fear, divide society, and impoverish a huge swathe of the population making them dependent on the state.
Use propaganda and psychological conditioning to further that aim. Anyone who dares to disagree is promptly ridiculed/marginalised/demonised. Ring any bells?

Make no mistake, this is about power and control.

Lord Acton said:

If there is any presumption it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it.

Ayn Rand said:

There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.

Lastly, something to lighten the mood in these dark times. Humour but with a kernel of truth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58OBTi18bsY

[Elysium]

JagLover said:

I know we have probably discussed this before but worth reiterating (from Spectator TV)





The curves are tracking the forecast, just a few weeks to the left because we didnt have the "circuit breaker" lockdown they assumed.

All the "circuit break" was designed to accomplish then was to have the exact same cases, one month later on. I mean just why?, it is the most pointless thing ever.

Are they doing the one for cases? Because SAGE predicted the current situation with cases much lower than we have now.

For me the key point is that cases now are not the same as they were at the start because we are doing insane amounts of additional testing.

In much the same way, admissions and deaths are not comparable either.

[JagLover]

Elysium said:

JagLover said:

I know we have probably discussed this before but worth reiterating (from Spectator TV)





The curves are tracking the forecast, just a few weeks to the left because we didnt have the "circuit breaker" lockdown they assumed.

All the "circuit break" was designed to accomplish then was to have the exact same cases, one month later on. I mean just why?, it is the most pointless thing ever.

Are they doing the one for cases? Because SAGE predicted the current situation with cases much lower than we have now.

Coped from another thread so i'm afraid I dont know.

If cases are much higher than forecast to produce those numbers then hopefully the curves will stop rising soon.

[Uncle John]

Saw my Mother & Father in law today.

BBC 1 o’ clock news, some bloke saying he will not go out of the house due to the ‘killer disease’.

I piped up that Project Fear vol 51 was in full effect then, cue its bad, blah blah, no beds left, blah blah, we’re doomed blah blah.

I said where are all the bodies piling up in the street then? Didn’t go down well. The media have a lot to answer for.

Oh, & they’re not coming over for Christmas.

[Elysium]

isaldiri said:

Elysium said:

I am more than happy to debate things with people who behave fairly and reasonably, but you just misrepresent, exaggerate and distort.
It’s ridiculous.

Pot meet the kettle.

You are right about the last bit of your post with regards to rather a lot of the certainties based on mistruths and wild extrapolations you constantly spew as absolute fact.

The thing is that this is a serious and important subject. It’s not the time or place for this sort of stuff.

Why not give the insults and snide comments a rest for a bit? It’s nonsense and unnecessarily unpleasant.

[rustyuk]

smashing said:

Elysium said:

Nottingham’s spike is over, just as they are entering tier 3:



The spike was caused by mass testing of asymptomatic students:

https://www.researchprofessionalnews.com/rr-he-age...

Someone obviously wanted to show off and now all of Nottinghamshire is shut down.

This is where the whole thing makes no sense, when we test for COVID we find a load of it, but if it was that infectious it would be everywhere by now. The PCR test has to be suspect.

Yup nottingham uni were doing weekly surveillance testing in the halls, what did they expect?

Also noticing people on SM complaining more and more about restrictions now the free money tree isn't providing as much as last time!

It's probably worth pointing out Notts Uni have a very large Chinese Student population.

[WindyCommon]

Elysium said:

isaldiri said:

Elysium said:

I am more than happy to debate things with people who behave fairly and reasonably, but you just misrepresent, exaggerate and distort.
It’s ridiculous.

Pot meet the kettle.

You are right about the last bit of your post with regards to rather a lot of the certainties based on mistruths and wild extrapolations you constantly spew as absolute fact.

The thing is that this is a serious and important subject. It’s not the time or place for this sort of stuff.

Why not give the insults and snide comments a rest for a bit? It’s nonsense and unnecessarily unpleasant.

I would welcome Isaldiri posting some of his own original thoughts and ideas rather than just being an ambush predator.

[isaldiri]

Elysium said:

The thing is that this is a serious and important subject. It’s not the time or place for this sort of stuff.

Why not give the insults and snide comments a rest for a bit? It’s nonsense and unnecessarily unpleasant.

well, as i said previously I'm more than happy to give it a rest when you stop wilfully portraying something that isn't at all conclusive as a dead cert. Anyway fine I'll try to bite my tongue until you next come up with something that is just so egregious that i feel compelled to point out isn't exactly fact.

[sim72]

Elysium said:

Nottingham’s spike is over, just as they are entering tier 3:



The spike was caused by mass testing of asymptomatic students:

https://www.researchprofessionalnews.com/rr-he-age...

Someone obviously wanted to show off and now all of Nottinghamshire is shut down.

This is where the whole thing makes no sense, when we test for COVID we find a load of it, but if it was that infectious it would be everywhere by now. The PCR test has to be suspect.

Yep, most of the student areas are showing big drops (although they're quite often still showing a relatively high case rate).

Problem is that a huge swathe of pretty-much-student-free Nottinghamshire now has big numbers as well (the purple areas are 400+).

[Elysium]

isaldiri said:

Elysium said:

The thing is that this is a serious and important subject. It’s not the time or place for this sort of stuff.

Why not give the insults and snide comments a rest for a bit? It’s nonsense and unnecessarily unpleasant.

well, as i said previously I'm more than happy to give it a rest when you stop wilfully portraying something that isn't at all conclusive as a dead cert. Anyway fine I'll try to bite my tongue until you next come up with something that is just so egregious that i feel compelled to point out isn't exactly fact.

You could just politely disagree with me without all the hyperbole.

I don’t think I post anything as a ‘dead cert’. I just give my opinions and say what I think is happening. All opinions can be challenged.

[Elysium]

WindyCommon said:

I would welcome Isaldiri posting some of his own original thoughts and ideas rather than just being an ambush predator.

That would be great.

[anonymous-user]

Another balanced BBC story....NOT

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-mancheste...

Covid: Anti-masker who caught virus had 'worst two weeks'

[zetec]

ITV London News tonight headlining the issue of young homeless in London. They interview Mikey, who, after leaving university struggled to find work in Yorkshire so came to London, immediately found himself homeless and spent 2 months on the streets. He spoke of the shame of sitting on a sleeping bag outside St Pancreas and the frustration of needing food but when someone brought him food he couldn’t eat it as he is vegetarian.

Sorry, but, really?

[isaldiri]

WindyCommon said:

I would welcome Isaldiri posting some of his own original thoughts and ideas rather than just being an ambush predator.

Ok i was going to leave it but I take issue with this.

Ambush predator or not, i find manifestly false claims or extremly selective numbers jumping to absurd conclusions portrayed as the absolute truth generally exceptionally irritating and outright unhelpful to being able to have a sensible debate about the whole bloody mess. As have been some of the more grandiose claims of championing liberty vs evil.

You have been quite sensible and logical about the whole thing so far, far more so probably than I have. Do you really not see why I sometimes end up replying the way I do?

[V1nce Fox]

Can I have a bullsh*t check on this please...

https://thewashingtonstandard.com/world-leaders-ar...

[Alucidnation]

The Spruce Goose said:

Another balanced BBC story....NOT

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-mancheste...

Covid: Anti-masker who caught virus had 'worst two weeks'

Do you think this is more propaganda?

[TeamD]

Stay in Bed Instead said:

Oakey said:

What happens when they want paying?

Or they make a compensation claim having fallen down the stairs.

Can I refer you to the zero hours bit of the contract? Besides, the youngest lad is already an employee, as is my daughters other half, plus my mother and my wife being directors so only a couple more to add, not sure how the grandchildren will fit into the scheme though

Plus the insurances are paid up.

Edited by TeamD on Friday 30th October 18:31

[markyb_lcy]

Alucidnation said:

The Spruce Goose said:

Another balanced BBC story....NOT

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-mancheste...

Covid: Anti-masker who caught virus had 'worst two weeks'

Do you think this is more propaganda?

Wikipedia said:

Propaganda is communication that is used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda, which may not be objective and may be presenting facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis or perception, or using loaded language to produce an emotional rather than a rational response to the information that is presented

I’d say so.

It’s not the actual facts that are being reported that make it propaganda. It’s the reason it’s being reported and the presentation style of it.

Ask yourself ... if this guy wasn’t an anti masker, would it be reported to us? (I suspect not). Then ask yourself “why” it’s being reported “because” he was an “anti-masker”. It can only be to either elicit an emotional response or to influence opinion.

I’d say it fits the definition of propaganda quite well.

TBF taking that definition, you could easily say the vast majority of “news” is propaganda. There is very little objective reporting left.

By the way, not all propaganda is nefarious. Some of it is well-intentioned. I pass no specific comment on this particular piece other than it’s a bit of hot air.

Edited by markyb_lcy on Friday 30th October 18:27