Laurence Fox - New Political Party
Discussion
chrispmartha said:
You’re both missing and proving his point there.
I dont think I am.chrispmartha said:
You’re happy with ‘virtue signalling’ (horrible phrase) when it’s something you agree with.
Really? Am i? Odd conclusion to make since you dont know what Im happy with.chrispmartha said:
Theres no need to wear a poppy to do anything you have described
Its a symbol of rembrance, sympathy and ultimately respect, usually by those whose family members got shot and blown to bits.Theres no similarity with the kind of hand wringing blue haired wokenism so often displayed by the bandwagoners of today who just want to be a part of "something".
Dont Panic said:
chrispmartha said:
You’re both missing and proving his point there.
I dont think I am.chrispmartha said:
You’re happy with ‘virtue signalling’ (horrible phrase) when it’s something you agree with.
Really? Am i? Odd conclusion to make since you dont know what Im happy with.chrispmartha said:
Theres no need to wear a poppy to do anything you have described
Its a symbol of rembrance, sympathy and ultimately respect, usually by those whose family members got shot and blown to bits.Theres no similarity with the kind of hand wringing blue haired wokenism so often displayed by the bandwagoners of today who just want to be a part of "something".
Youve got no idea what these ‘blue haired wokeist bandwaggoners’ (how old are you?) reasons are but you use these daft pejorative words to describe them because you personally disagree with what you think their reasons are
Johnnytheboy said:
Randy Winkman said:
Johnnytheboy said:
This is 2020.
The best way to combat racism - apparently - is to treat people differently on the basis of their race.
No, I don't get it either.
I'm not sure it's possible to combat racism without acknowledging different races. The best way to combat racism - apparently - is to treat people differently on the basis of their race.
No, I don't get it either.
chrispmartha said:
You’re happy with ‘virtue signalling’ (horrible phrase) when it’s something you agree with. Theres no need to wear a poppy to do anything you have described
Ooh I love/hate this “poppy as virtue signalling” argument, that’s given me something to think about, thank you!Kawasicki said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Randy Winkman said:
Johnnytheboy said:
This is 2020.
The best way to combat racism - apparently - is to treat people differently on the basis of their race.
No, I don't get it either.
I'm not sure it's possible to combat racism without acknowledging different races. The best way to combat racism - apparently - is to treat people differently on the basis of their race.
No, I don't get it either.
Only when they are a bit less clumsy!
BurtonLazars said:
chrispmartha said:
You’re happy with ‘virtue signalling’ (horrible phrase) when it’s something you agree with. Theres no need to wear a poppy to do anything you have described
Ooh I love/hate this “poppy as virtue signalling” argument, that’s given me something to think about, thank you!But then again I have no issue with anyone wearing something or showing appreciation for something they believe in, that would be you know, hypocritical.
Johnnytheboy said:
This is 2020.
The best way to combat racism - apparently - is to treat people differently on the basis of their race.
No, I don't get it either.
The best way to combat racism - apparently - is to treat people differently on the basis of their race.
No, I don't get it either.
I think you would need to benefit from racism to get it !! hence as just about everyone becomes colour blind and sees people of other races as equals and a another person in your life like a doctor , delivery driver etc ,
from the stone age comes BLM or some clowns from the left to stir things and justify their grubby agenda...
chrispmartha said:
BurtonLazars said:
chrispmartha said:
You’re happy with ‘virtue signalling’ (horrible phrase) when it’s something you agree with. Theres no need to wear a poppy to do anything you have described
Ooh I love/hate this “poppy as virtue signalling” argument, that’s given me something to think about, thank you!But then again I have no issue with anyone wearing something or showing appreciation for something they believe in, that would be you know, hypocritical.
Virtue Signalling = Showing Appreciation
Not quite, whether the phrase (virtue signalling) is liked or not it involves very visible posturing not (just) appreciating which can be a quiet personal affair.
Meanwhile, what about Fox and this new Party thing?
turbobloke said:
doesthiswork said:
Interesting, and in the case of the chart, pretty depressing. Now compare that chart with a chart of average salary by race for the UK.
But... what's any of that got to do with the subject in hand?
- Laurence Fox is allowed to say what he likes, obviously. <snip>
That's what it's got to do with the subject (as discussed in this thread), allegedly Fox is in no position to comment due to white male privilege, which description may or may not be wholly accurate but it rings hollow in the bigger picture.But... what's any of that got to do with the subject in hand?
- Laurence Fox is allowed to say what he likes, obviously. <snip>
Not sure what was implied by the comment put in bold, but it's not clear cut and certainly BME are ahead in salary in the 27,000 to 35,999 bands. This is for 18 months after graduation, published June 20.
Overall comments for the chart using different filters being...
At an overall level, the £24,000-£26,999 band contains the highest proportion of graduates in full-time paid UK employment.
A higher proportion of females were earning more than males in bands under £27,000. The gap trend is even more apparent for undergraduates.
Following a similar trend, a higher proportion of those with a known disability were earning more than those with no known disability in bands under £27,000.
For all graduates, the pay band containing the most respondents for those aged 20 and under was £18,000-£20,999.
For those aged 21 and older this was £24,000-£26,999 and for those aged 25 and over, £39,000+.
Graduates who are White outnumbered BME graduates in lower salary bands. However, there are more BME graduates than White graduates in salary bands between £27,000 and £35,999.
chrispmartha said:
For the record I have no issue at all with anyone wearing a poppy.
I totally understand, and same. It was the (entirely obvious in retrospect) reframing of the the poppy wearing as virtue signalling that I enjoyed - from an argument/ counter-argument debate perspective.Dont Panic said:
Its a symbol of rembrance, sympathy and ultimately respect, usually by those whose family members got shot and blown to bits.
Theres no similarity with the kind of hand wringing blue haired wokenism so often displayed by the bandwagoners of today who just want to be a part of "something".
That seems to me to be a very short-sighted viewpoint. (To be clear about my position, I abhor the extreme left just as I abhor the extreme right, but...) Much of the misplaced solutions on the left are driven in response to the suffering of vulnerable people in society some of whom have lost or taken their lives as a result. To state there’s no similarity really isn’t giving sufficient critical thought to the topic.Theres no similarity with the kind of hand wringing blue haired wokenism so often displayed by the bandwagoners of today who just want to be a part of "something".
turbobloke said:
Meanwhile, what about Fox and this new Party thing?
I've given my thoughts on this little pet project for Laurence Fox earlier in the thread, to repeat, anything that stops him creating 'music' can only be a plus for society.I will be deeply disappointed if his cousin has similar views as him, she'd go right down in my estimation.
Another thing on Fox, he showed his true colours when he posted a private conversation between him ad his supposedly close friend Rebecca Front for everyone to see on twitter, something about him being 'cancelled' when in reality she had personally message him to state her reason for disagreeing with him on his politics.
A Winner Is You said:
doesthiswork said:
- On this particular subject (what racism is not) I am much less likely to give weight to the opinion of someone who has clearly never been a victim of racism
How do you know he hasn't?Depressing that there might actually be a following for these people who gain popularity by encouraging the easily led and reactionary to blame everyone else for their dissatisfaction.
turbobloke said:
FiF said:
Just a thought on this white male privilege schtick.
Just look where White British boys, especially those who get free school meals sit on this chart.
In keeping with that data and as I know you know, white working class pupils - boys in particular - have been very near the bottom of the educational achievement pile for some time. An appropriate amount of lip service is paid, given that schools and the system as a whole are data rich and it can't possibly be missed, but they're still in the same boat. It's almost as though there's no genuine sense of urgency.Just look where White British boys, especially those who get free school meals sit on this chart.
2020
"Education and Attainment of White Working-Class Boys"
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2020-02-12/d...
2019
"Half of universities have fewer than 5% poor white students"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-47227157
2018
"Why are white working class boys underachieving in our schools?"
https://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/201...
2017
"The under-achievement of white working class boys in England is well documented"
https://www.bera.ac.uk/blog/setting-and-the-academ...
2016
"Schools must focus on struggling white working-class pupils"
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/nov/10/...
2015
"Underachievement by white working class children..."
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/neoliber...
2014
Underachievement in Education by White Working Class Children (pdf)
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cms...
2013
"Working class boys: schools must work with parents to raise their attainment"
https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/teache...
That's enough privilege to be going on with before 7am.
It's easy to blame the system, but the uncomfortable truth is that it's white working class parents failing their children.
chrispmartha said:
I've given my thoughts on this little pet project for Laurence Fox earlier in the thread, to repeat, anything that stops him creating 'music' can only be a plus for society.
I will be deeply disappointed if his cousin has similar views as him, she'd go right down in my estimation.
Another thing on Fox, he showed his true colours when he posted a private conversation between him ad his supposedly close friend Rebecca Front for everyone to see on twitter, something about him being 'cancelled' when in reality she had personally message him to state her reason for disagreeing with him on his politics.
Indeed. Posting a private conversation with a friend just to make a political points was just scummy. Especially scummy when you read exactly what was said. She makes a very reasonable point and then wishes him well, and Fox uses it to wail on Twitter about being 'cancelled':I will be deeply disappointed if his cousin has similar views as him, she'd go right down in my estimation.
Another thing on Fox, he showed his true colours when he posted a private conversation between him ad his supposedly close friend Rebecca Front for everyone to see on twitter, something about him being 'cancelled' when in reality she had personally message him to state her reason for disagreeing with him on his politics.
Fox: "Why would you block me? Have I said anything that could upset you? What a shame. Anyway, you are never blocked from me.”
Front: "Oh Lol, I think it was the #AllLivesMatter stuff that finally tipped me over the edge. It seems to me so glaringly obvious that All Lives Matter – you’d have to be a psychopath to disagree – that it should be equally obvious it doesn’t need a slogan. Black Lives are systematically undervalued. Their work opportunities are fewer, their health outcomes far worse, the criminal justice system works against them. I think the least we can do is let them have a f***ing slogan. But there are many, many things we clearly disagree on and, fond as I am of you, looking at your Twitter feed I just felt uncomfortable about the company you’re keeping. I’m sorry. I wish you and your lovely boys well. We’ll just have to agree to differ.”
Fox: "The least we’re can do is let them have a f***ing slogan. Jesus."
I watched an interview with Fox on Talk Radio recently, and he sat there in dark sunglasses, a leather jacket, and smoking cigarettes whilst making increasingly 'edgy' comments. He clearly wants to reinvent himself as some kind of 'bad boy of politics'.
Oh well, I suppose he needs to try to find work now that he's trashed his own acting career.
tangerine_sedge said:
It's not for lack of white male privilege, it's despite it. They have the same access to schooling, housing stock and social services as their BAME peers, but trail them academically - why?
It's easy to blame the system, but the uncomfortable truth is that it's white working class parents failing their children.
If they have "the same access to schooling, housing stock and social services as their BAME peers" then where is the privilege that they are failing "despite of"?It's easy to blame the system, but the uncomfortable truth is that it's white working class parents failing their children.
It also isn't strictly accurate that they have the same access to schooling because resources allocated to education aren't spread evenly across the country and some areas are historically underfunded and others receive more (inner city London in particular).
tangerine_sedge said:
It's not for lack of white male privilege, it's despite it. They have the same access to schooling, housing stock and social services as their BAME peers, but trail them academically - why?
It's easy to blame the system, but the uncomfortable truth is that it's white working class parents failing their children.
Sneering elitist! It's easy to blame the system, but the uncomfortable truth is that it's white working class parents failing their children.
Can’t be the parents fault. It’s all down to Marxists, BAME people, the BBC, Lily Allen and pc gone mad.
FiF said:
Don't have to hand an approved chart with the same breakdown for salary, but here is something from HESA Graduate outcomes, salary and ethnicity. Just white vs BAME. When you drill down into the BAME figures there are some interesting differences, particularly in respect of Black African vs say Chinese, Indian, Pakistani et al.
Not sure what was implied by the comment put in bold, but it's not clear cut and certainly BME are ahead in salary in the 27,000 to 35,999 bands. This is for 18 months after graduation, published June 20.
Overall comments for the chart using different filters being...
At an overall level, the £24,000-£26,999 band contains the highest proportion of graduates in full-time paid UK employment.
A higher proportion of females were earning more than males in bands under £27,000. The gap trend is even more apparent for undergraduates.
Following a similar trend, a higher proportion of those with a known disability were earning more than those with no known disability in bands under £27,000.
For all graduates, the pay band containing the most respondents for those aged 20 and under was £18,000-£20,999.
For those aged 21 and older this was £24,000-£26,999 and for those aged 25 and over, £39,000+.
Graduates who are White outnumbered BME graduates in lower salary bands. However, there are more BME graduates than White graduates in salary bands between £27,000 and £35,999.
I'm sure I'll have to defer to your expertise, but right now I can't see the relationship between the first chart you posted and the second one - my comment was implying that despite the 'white British' group being at the bottom of your original chart, they manage to turn things around when you look at overall average earnings in the UK, coming either second or third, after Chinese and Indian groups.Not sure what was implied by the comment put in bold, but it's not clear cut and certainly BME are ahead in salary in the 27,000 to 35,999 bands. This is for 18 months after graduation, published June 20.
Overall comments for the chart using different filters being...
At an overall level, the £24,000-£26,999 band contains the highest proportion of graduates in full-time paid UK employment.
A higher proportion of females were earning more than males in bands under £27,000. The gap trend is even more apparent for undergraduates.
Following a similar trend, a higher proportion of those with a known disability were earning more than those with no known disability in bands under £27,000.
For all graduates, the pay band containing the most respondents for those aged 20 and under was £18,000-£20,999.
For those aged 21 and older this was £24,000-£26,999 and for those aged 25 and over, £39,000+.
Graduates who are White outnumbered BME graduates in lower salary bands. However, there are more BME graduates than White graduates in salary bands between £27,000 and £35,999.
In your second chart my immediate reaction would be that the Chinese ethnicity group is artificially boosting the BME results, but having said that, why would you expect any difference at all?
doesthiswork said:
I was originally commenting on this particular upper class, wealthy, privileged white man, but to be honest, most upper class, wealthy, privileged white men are going to be on the back foot if they take it upon themselves to deny racism is a problem when it's somewhat unlikely they will have suffered it themselves.
Then your original note on it was clumsily worded.If you'd noted that people who cannot express their arguments well will get less air time, or people who by their own admission are too stupid to have the debate are likely to be dismissed, then you would have agreement.
As it is, you specifically mentioned race, class and privilege. Those things do not automatically make your opinion less valuable. Or shouldn't. As you note, he should have paid more attention in class. Or spent his free time reading up on topics he wants to have a debate about.
However, it seems to me that the stated aim of this new party would be to give all sides a voice. If we are to get long lasting solutions, it's imperative we do this. IMO. Even if (especially if) some of those opinions challenge our views.
doesthiswork said:
Interesting, and in the case of the chart, pretty depressing. Now compare that chart with a chart of average salary by race for the UK.
...
That particular line starts to go down the path of "equality of outcomes" versus "equality of opportunity". Which is a very slippery slope....
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