How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 15)
Discussion
don'tbesilly said:
roger.mellie said:
don'tbesilly said:
roger.mellie said:
don'tbesilly said:
Johnson wasn't in any position to agree the WA two years ago, Johnson didn't become PM until end of July 2019, which is some 15 months ago.
Johnson's involvement with the WA occurred some months after taking up his position as PM, so realistically a year ago.
You got in before/during my edit Johnson's involvement with the WA occurred some months after taking up his position as PM, so realistically a year ago.
.Feel free to address my point.
You are increasingly looking like a character from 'Viz' Roger, have your parents had a word yet?
I do enjoy an oul’ ad hom as it’s usually evidence of a lack of a strong argument. Since you’re fond of giving it I’ll retort. You’re increasingly failing to live up to your username
roger.mellie said:
No we’re not. I’m saying I’m in a position to compare and contrast the two jurisdiction’s approach and I’ve a strong opinion on which has done the better job. Would all those google hits have been there two years ago when there was the real prospect of failing to agree the WA?, I don’t know but I doubt it. I do know the Irish gov we’re sending out warning signals to industry at the time.
With the exception of some making comments disagreeing with your comment/opinion, can you point out specifically which poster/s took offence at your comment, or perhaps you think you're opinion trumps anybody else's opinion, and a comment challenging your opinion is someone taking offence?Edited by roger.mellie on Sunday 25th October 10:17
Does the opinion expressed based on what you thought two years ago and under an administration that ceased to exist 15 odd months ago still have any relevance today?
The amount/level of information available today in regards Brexit and the preparations required by UK businesses has been on the Govt website for months, some for years, (two at least).
I haven't looked at what's available for Irish businesses (not overly interested in honesty) so I can't comment on whether the info under either administration is better than the other, and I'm not sure how one could judge it, but if you think the Irish Govt have done a better job than the UK Govt, bully for you, would a chocolate teapot suffice as an award?
Should my opinion expressed on a gov from 2 years ago change because a different leader is in charge? Boris being made leader has not changed what happened 2 years ago so the answer is obviously a big fat no. Does it have relevance today, yes as I've not seen anything to indicate he has done a better job than May. This is an opinion. You're entitled to a different one. You're also entitled to explain why you think I'm wrong and if you do a good job of it I'll maybe even agree with you.
The info may well have been there for months. I'll re-iterate. It doesn't change in the slightest who I think has done the better job of prep. I'll also re-iterate (although I expressed this less explicitly last time), I suspect a large part of the reason was not a lack of competence but was a case of wanting to avoid certain headlines. My view is that politicking has hampered the response.
First time I've checked PH recently and this thread wasn't on the front page of NP&E. Indicative of how little has happened in the headlines recently I suppose. Not a bad thing.
rockin said:
Sway said:
Yours?
Automotive, food & beverage, oil industry.I would never suggest for one moment that the minefield of tariffs, regulations and practicalities is simple to navigate.
For instance, what do you do when your truck full of (a) perishable foodstuffs, or (b) just in time components for a car factory is stuck 136 trucks back in the queue for Calais?
Then sit and wait for an unquantified time, assured in the fact all the planning was based on an unquantified worse case scenario.
Then, phone up the supplier asking them to send another truck or to fly the product to the UK, as UK Gov have advised there 'shouldn't' be delays at airports.
No doubt this will blow over quite quickly once the amount of trade has reduced, I suppose COVID will help too.
Sit back and relax.
Project fear, anyone??
roger.mellie said:
don'tbesilly said:
roger.mellie said:
don'tbesilly said:
roger.mellie said:
don'tbesilly said:
Johnson wasn't in any position to agree the WA two years ago, Johnson didn't become PM until end of July 2019, which is some 15 months ago.
Johnson's involvement with the WA occurred some months after taking up his position as PM, so realistically a year ago.
You got in before/during my edit Johnson's involvement with the WA occurred some months after taking up his position as PM, so realistically a year ago.
.Feel free to address my point.
You are increasingly looking like a character from 'Viz' Roger, have your parents had a word yet?
I do enjoy an oul’ ad hom as it’s usually evidence of a lack of a strong argument. Since you’re fond of giving it I’ll retort. You’re increasingly failing to live up to your username
roger.mellie said:
No we’re not. I’m saying I’m in a position to compare and contrast the two jurisdiction’s approach and I’ve a strong opinion on which has done the better job. Would all those google hits have been there two years ago when there was the real prospect of failing to agree the WA?, I don’t know but I doubt it. I do know the Irish gov we’re sending out warning signals to industry at the time.
With the exception of some making comments disagreeing with your comment/opinion, can you point out specifically which poster/s took offence at your comment, or perhaps you think you're opinion trumps anybody else's opinion, and a comment challenging your opinion is someone taking offence?Edited by roger.mellie on Sunday 25th October 10:17
Does the opinion expressed based on what you thought two years ago and under an administration that ceased to exist 15 odd months ago still have any relevance today?
The amount/level of information available today in regards Brexit and the preparations required by UK businesses has been on the Govt website for months, some for years, (two at least).
I haven't looked at what's available for Irish businesses (not overly interested in honesty) so I can't comment on whether the info under either administration is better than the other, and I'm not sure how one could judge it, but if you think the Irish Govt have done a better job than the UK Govt, bully for you, would a chocolate teapot suffice as an award?
Should my opinion expressed on a gov from 2 years ago change because a different leader is in charge? Boris being made leader has not changed what happened 2 years ago so the answer is obviously a big fat no. Does it have relevance today, yes as I've not seen anything to indicate he has done a better job than May. This is an opinion. You're entitled to a different one. You're also entitled to explain why you think I'm wrong and if you do a good job of it I'll maybe even agree with you.
The info may well have been there for months. I'll re-iterate. It doesn't change in the slightest who I think has done the better job of prep. I'll also re-iterate (although I expressed this less explicitly last time), I suspect a large part of the reason was not a lack of competence but was a case of wanting to avoid certain headlines. My view is that politicking has hampered the response.
First time I've checked PH recently and this thread wasn't on the front page of NP&E. Indicative of how little has happened in the headlines recently I suppose. Not a bad thing.
mike9009 said:
rockin said:
Sway said:
Yours?
Automotive, food & beverage, oil industry.I would never suggest for one moment that the minefield of tariffs, regulations and practicalities is simple to navigate.
For instance, what do you do when your truck full of (a) perishable foodstuffs, or (b) just in time components for a car factory is stuck 136 trucks back in the queue for Calais?
Then sit and wait for an unquantified time, assured in the fact all the planning was based on an unquantified worse case scenario.
Then, phone up the supplier asking them to send another truck or to fly the product to the UK, as UK Gov have advised there 'shouldn't' be delays at airports.
No doubt this will blow over quite quickly once the amount of trade has reduced, I suppose COVID will help too.
Sit back and relax.
Project fear, anyone??
The only reason Dover has had additional measures put in place was because it's the one port that simply had no contingency or resilience...
Hull/Grimsby/Felixstowe/Southampton/Tees/CoL and more are all (Hull excepted) larger than Dover today - and crucially all have much easier abilities to handle surges in volumes or reductions in throughput.
gooner1 said:
Lovely, great and smashing but who actually took offence. Just the username(s) will suffice, we can supply our own ?? If required.
Is that a royal we or do you think you’re part of a gang? I know this game, ignore my point and aim for internet brownie points by picking on one sentence. Still haven’t seen you post anything to refute the more relevant part of my post but that’s not the game you’re playing.
JNW1 said:
To be honest I see no reason why we shouldn't agree to something on state aid along similar lines to what's included in our recent FTA with Japan. Realistically I think it's difficult to enter an FTA whilst demanding an open-ended right to subsidise companies as in theory they are then able to undercut those of the other party as a consequence of the handouts they're receiving - we wouldn't be happy if UK companies were losing orders and contracts to EU companies who were being propped-up by government money and logically the same is going to apply in reverse!
However, IMO we do need to be clear about how any level playing field is enforced; in the event of a dispute there needs to be a mechanism for independent arbitration and that means final decisions cannot be a matter for EU institutions or courts.
Nobody is requesting open ended-ness on subsidies However, IMO we do need to be clear about how any level playing field is enforced; in the event of a dispute there needs to be a mechanism for independent arbitration and that means final decisions cannot be a matter for EU institutions or courts.
The Japan deal is based upon WTO mechanisms. I'd be happy with something like the Japan clauses if needed (which do add a couple of tweaks to WTO provisions to tighten them up).
The EU aren't happy with those provisions where we are concerned, it seems.
Let's see what the next week delivers.
Sway said:
Minimal contingency?
The only reason Dover has had additional measures put in place was because it's the one port that simply had no contingency or resilience...
Hull/Grimsby/Felixstowe/Southampton/Tees/CoL and more are all (Hull excepted) larger than Dover today - and crucially all have much easier abilities to handle surges in volumes or reductions in throughput.
^This.The only reason Dover has had additional measures put in place was because it's the one port that simply had no contingency or resilience...
Hull/Grimsby/Felixstowe/Southampton/Tees/CoL and more are all (Hull excepted) larger than Dover today - and crucially all have much easier abilities to handle surges in volumes or reductions in throughput.
It's not as if Operation Stack is a novel concept. The fact it existed before 2016 (first implemented in 1988, but it was used most intensively in summer 2015) highlights the issue being chronic and in need of a longer term solution.
rockin said:
...
For instance, what do you do when your truck full of (a) perishable foodstuffs, or (b) just in time components for a car factory is stuck 136 trucks back in the queue for Calais?
What do you do now when your trucks are stuck in Kent due to the weather, French bloody mindedness or any other snarl up?For instance, what do you do when your truck full of (a) perishable foodstuffs, or (b) just in time components for a car factory is stuck 136 trucks back in the queue for Calais?
Ahhhh, but Murph that only happens now and then.
I'd argue that if you think something is going to be consistent, it's much easier to plan for than when you have "random" issues...
roger.mellie said:
....
The ROI proactively (the key word) helped me in getting some info, the uk didn’t, the movement of goods was not something I needed to know about.
To facetiously paraphrase, you sound like you therefore want your hand held? For the info not only to be available on that witchcraft that is the internet, but for someone to come to your office and show you where to find it?The ROI proactively (the key word) helped me in getting some info, the uk didn’t, the movement of goods was not something I needed to know about.
I guess if they made you a coffee and brought you a biscuit at the same time, and perhaps wiped your bum too you'd have an even warmer feeling about how prepared the government are and how much they're helping you.
mike9009 said:
rockin said:
Sway said:
Yours?
Automotive, food & beverage, oil industry.I would never suggest for one moment that the minefield of tariffs, regulations and practicalities is simple to navigate.
For instance, what do you do when your truck full of (a) perishable foodstuffs, or (b) just in time components for a car factory is stuck 136 trucks back in the queue for Calais?
Then sit and wait for an unquantified time, assured in the fact all the planning was based on an unquantified worse case scenario.
Then, phone up the supplier asking them to send another truck or to fly the product to the UK, as UK Gov have advised there 'shouldn't' be delays at airports.
No doubt this will blow over quite quickly once the amount of trade has reduced, I suppose COVID will help too.
Sit back and relax.
Project fear, anyone??
we were installing and servicing German equipment , now its equivalent non EU we are looking at
we also have a non EU vehicle policy too,
Sit back and relax ...
Murph7355 said:
roger.mellie said:
....
The ROI proactively (the key word) helped me in getting some info, the uk didn’t, the movement of goods was not something I needed to know about.
To facetiously paraphrase, you sound like you therefore want your hand held? For the info not only to be available on that witchcraft that is the internet, but for someone to come to your office and show you where to find it?The ROI proactively (the key word) helped me in getting some info, the uk didn’t, the movement of goods was not something I needed to know about.
I guess if they made you a coffee and brought you a biscuit at the same time, and perhaps wiped your bum too you'd have an even warmer feeling about how prepared the government are and how much they're helping you.
roger.mellie said:
Not at all. I'm in danger of becoming a stuck record on this so this'll hopefully be the last time I comment on this subject. It's hardly a major controversial point. Do I think the UK could have made a better fist of informing companies? Yes. Do I think other countries have done a better job? Yes. Do I think this is because the UK have more reason than any other EU country to obfuscate the potential negative impacts of brexit? Yes.
We hear you. And as you note, there's nowt wrong with your opinion.It also doesn't make the other responses you've had invalid either.
Sway said:
mike9009 said:
rockin said:
Sway said:
Yours?
Automotive, food & beverage, oil industry.I would never suggest for one moment that the minefield of tariffs, regulations and practicalities is simple to navigate.
For instance, what do you do when your truck full of (a) perishable foodstuffs, or (b) just in time components for a car factory is stuck 136 trucks back in the queue for Calais?
Then sit and wait for an unquantified time, assured in the fact all the planning was based on an unquantified worse case scenario.
Then, phone up the supplier asking them to send another truck or to fly the product to the UK, as UK Gov have advised there 'shouldn't' be delays at airports.
No doubt this will blow over quite quickly once the amount of trade has reduced, I suppose COVID will help too.
Sit back and relax.
Project fear, anyone??
The only reason Dover has had additional measures put in place was because it's the one port that simply had no contingency or resilience...
Hull/Grimsby/Felixstowe/Southampton/Tees/CoL and more are all (Hull excepted) larger than Dover today - and crucially all have much easier abilities to handle surges in volumes or reductions in throughput.
I accept your statement about the size of the ports, but do they have the necessary infrastructure, people, IT systems, logistics installed to aid speedy clearances?
I couldn't get an answer to this question when asked of various UK agencies last week......I am glad you assert they have got large port side facilities to store the containers for a while......
mike9009 said:
Sway said:
mike9009 said:
rockin said:
Sway said:
Yours?
Automotive, food & beverage, oil industry.I would never suggest for one moment that the minefield of tariffs, regulations and practicalities is simple to navigate.
For instance, what do you do when your truck full of (a) perishable foodstuffs, or (b) just in time components for a car factory is stuck 136 trucks back in the queue for Calais?
Then sit and wait for an unquantified time, assured in the fact all the planning was based on an unquantified worse case scenario.
Then, phone up the supplier asking them to send another truck or to fly the product to the UK, as UK Gov have advised there 'shouldn't' be delays at airports.
No doubt this will blow over quite quickly once the amount of trade has reduced, I suppose COVID will help too.
Sit back and relax.
Project fear, anyone??
The only reason Dover has had additional measures put in place was because it's the one port that simply had no contingency or resilience...
Hull/Grimsby/Felixstowe/Southampton/Tees/CoL and more are all (Hull excepted) larger than Dover today - and crucially all have much easier abilities to handle surges in volumes or reductions in throughput.
I accept your statement about the size of the ports, but do they have the necessary infrastructure, people, IT systems, logistics installed to aid speedy clearances?
I couldn't get an answer to this question when asked of various UK agencies last week......I am glad you assert they have got large port side facilities to store the containers for a while......
Ports are in huge competition to be as efficient and speedy as possible - yes, I'm absolutely confident those ports will continue to be able to smash Dover out the water when it comes to such things. There's a reason they're already handling much greater volumes and you never hear of issues at them.
They've also pretty much all been investing in additional capacity - frankly, they're all adoring the opportunity to nick further market share off Dover!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grimsbytelegraph....
That's just one small example.
There's very little rationale for there being a bottleneck and large delays for containers.
Legacywr said:
Just a quick note, I don’t know about other ports, but, Southampton isn’t a ferry port, so, there’ll be no lorries coming through there.
True.It's got quite a big container port, though;
https://www.dpworldsouthampton.com/
mike9009 said:
Legacywr said:
Just a quick note, I don’t know about other ports, but, Southampton isn’t a ferry port, so, there’ll be no lorries coming through there.
Red funnel? I am sure Newhaven and Pompey are prepared though even though HMRC and BEIS are not aware.
You’re right, just get some Nigerian stowaways to hijack a cross channel ferry, and Bob’s your uncle
It's been a slow couple of news days on brexit so here's a question I wondered about today. A few on this thread have stated reasons for movement of goods and point of origin being overplayed as issues. I don't claim to know enough on that so rarely bother getting involved in those technical discussions.
How right or wrong is Tony here? - https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1320634383...
See also the followup comment on a parliamentary question - https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1320716856...
Taking that thread at face value it would appear to be a worst of both worlds situation for some NI businesses.
I'm genuinely asking, I'm making no assertions on whether he's right or wrong.
How right or wrong is Tony here? - https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1320634383...
See also the followup comment on a parliamentary question - https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1320716856...
Taking that thread at face value it would appear to be a worst of both worlds situation for some NI businesses.
I'm genuinely asking, I'm making no assertions on whether he's right or wrong.
roger.mellie said:
It's been a slow couple of news days on brexit so here's a question I wondered about today. A few on this thread have stated reasons for movement of goods and point of origin being overplayed as issues. I don't claim to know enough on that so rarely bother getting involved in those technical discussions.
How right or wrong is Tony here? - https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1320634383...
See also the followup comment on a parliamentary question - https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1320716856...
Taking that thread at face value it would appear to be a worst of both worlds situation for some NI businesses.
I'm genuinely asking, I'm making no assertions on whether he's right or wrong.
For anyone that (understandably) doesn't like twitter - https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/1026/1173929-n...How right or wrong is Tony here? - https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1320634383...
See also the followup comment on a parliamentary question - https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1320716856...
Taking that thread at face value it would appear to be a worst of both worlds situation for some NI businesses.
I'm genuinely asking, I'm making no assertions on whether he's right or wrong.
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