TFL to extend Congestion Charge Zone...?!

[anonymous-user]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Maybe I’ve missed your point, but as an example, Clapham which is roughly the boundary on the south end of this proposal, is 14 miles from the M25. In the other direction its 4 miles right into the centre. The proposed area looks like it’s about one fifth of the total area inside the M25?

[JagLover]

mstrbkr said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Maybe I’ve missed your point, but as an example, Clapham which is roughly the boundary on the south end of this proposal, is 14 miles from the M25. In the other direction its 4 miles right into the centre. The proposed area looks like it’s about one fifth of the total area inside the M25?

With the extension south of the river it is bringing in many areas without a tube network. A very poor idea and not thought through.

[Gecko1978]

I was thinking not an issue for me in normal times as I take the train to the city. Looked at the map realised IKEA in Tottenham is inside the area...£15 to go buy a Billy bookcase....think I won't bother, same with visiting Westfields, the excel centre, the dome etc.

I have no choice for work all the other things are optional. Doubt getting the extra £1bn will do much other than bring about another call for a bailout at xmas

[CourtAgain]

Gecko1978 said:

I was thinking not an issue for me in normal times as I take the train to the city. Looked at the map realised IKEA in Tottenham is inside the area...£15 to go buy a Billy bookcase....think I won't bother, same with visiting Westfields, the excel centre, the dome etc.

I have no choice for work all the other things are optional. Doubt getting the extra £1bn will do much other than bring about another call for a bailout at xmas

They would have to inform residents, set up infrastructure first. You will have sufficient time to get your bookcase from Tottenham IKEA, unless you go to the Lakeside or Croydon one. I wonder if technically the Wembley branch wont incur charges as it is outside the North Circular and sits just north of the road?

It can't go on like this. Unless there's London Weighting to support anyone working in the capital, it will have greater impact on jobs and businesses. It will mean more people working from home (or not at all), and no one going into London, despite pleas in future for people to return to the offices if Coronavirus ever ends.

[Monkeylegend]

Makes the argument for a quick exit from London and HS2 look more compelling.

[Gecko1978]

CourtAgain said:

Gecko1978 said:

I was thinking not an issue for me in normal times as I take the train to the city. Looked at the map realised IKEA in Tottenham is inside the area...£15 to go buy a Billy bookcase....think I won't bother, same with visiting Westfields, the excel centre, the dome etc.

I have no choice for work all the other things are optional. Doubt getting the extra £1bn will do much other than bring about another call for a bailout at xmas

They would have to inform residents, set up infrastructure first. You will have sufficient time to get your bookcase from Tottenham IKEA, unless you go to the Lakeside or Croydon one. I wonder if technically the Wembley branch wont incur charges as it is outside the North Circular and sits just north of the road?

It can't go on like this. Unless there's London Weighting to support anyone working in the capital, it will have greater impact on jobs and businesses. It will mean more people working from home (or not at all), and no one going into London, despite pleas in future for people to return to the offices if Coronavirus ever ends.

Your last point was what i was getting at (i don't actually need a bookcase but i do go to that ikea a few times a year). If you make travelling to work more expensive, are people not more inclined to then wfh an extra day or 2 which leads to lower income for TFL.

Retial and support business then see less demand and close make people redundant and again fair income falls.

[pquinn]

A bit of XR style 'direct action' is quite capable of terminating the entire system if people really cared enough - it's only people and tech that make it work, not magic.

Though again it's difficult to really blame Khan for this, he's just the scapegoat. This is someone driving policy in the same way all the 'green' traffic schemes suddenly popped up. You just need to find the nutter who hates the plebs and their cars so much.

[TheDrBrian]

15 quid a day to use your car?
Would this recover all the savings/loss from fuel duty when everyone goes electric.......

[Helicopter123]

TheDrBrian said:

15 quid a day to use your car?
Would this recover all the savings/loss from fuel duty when everyone goes electric.......

I've never driven in London - found TfL covers every base with the odd taxi/Uber.

Is this a realistic alternative for a resident rather than business traveller?

[Timberwolf]

All politics IMO. The government are keen to saddle Khan with the equivalent of electoral suicide ahead of May, and know TfL is an ideal opportunity. Either he ends up the mayor who let TfL collapse, or he's the one who got rid of free travel and extended the CC zone.

It therefore makes sense for City Hall to brief that the government are looking for outrageous options (24/7/365 well into the outer boroughs) so they can sell anything less as a negotiating win and avoid being painted as the bad guys.

That said, I am wondering whether £15 to take the car out would be worth it for empty roads and not having to listen to the crackle map brigade every evening... I imagine with such a zone catching both Westfields, IKEA, City Airport and countless smaller retail parks a few commercial property landlords would be up in arms though.

[Misanthrope]

Helicopter123 said:

I've never driven in London - found TfL covers every base with the odd taxi/Uber.

Is this a realistic alternative for a resident rather than business traveller?

You don't NEED a car, true. However if all you ever got was what some bureaucrat decided that you needed, your life would be pretty miserable.

[Mojooo]

Since the central London CC went up to 24/7 and £15 I have avoided going there totally. Not just avoided using my car but not going there at all. I would generally go when the CC stopped. Which I suppose is what they wanted to some extent.

Extending it out of the central areas will be pretty killer though. Presumably though they will also have to increase the central zone by even more so there is a difference - otherwise lots of cars will be able to enter the central zone having paid their outer london fee.

This would also be a killer for people who drive their cars in from outside London

[Newc]

Such a large expansion will collapse under its own consequences. Put aside the correct analyses above about this being really just politics and Johnson trying to take out Kahn, and look at the practical impact of the proposal.

It can only work over such a large area if there are significant residents' discounts. If you do have the discounts, then the discouragement of the existing CCZ disappears and it becomes liable to congestion again because a much larger set of people can drive in without penalty. This takes you inexorably to multiple CCZs - zone 1, zone 2, and so on.

If you don't offer the discounts, then you kill off so much discretionary economic activity that the losses in rates and taxes far exceed the gains from the CCZ fees. This is especially true in south London with its much worse rail systems. No matter how much the city hall veganistas might wish it, there is not an enormous pent up demand for walking and cycling that just needs a nudge to have it head out on a wet Saturday afternoon in February to run some errands and grab a coffee. If the choice is 'cycle in the wet or pay £15 or stay home', then people will stay home.

A practical example. I live in central London. If I'm around on Sunday mornings I quite often go to a French bakery in Hammersmith for a healthy breakfast of apple turnovers and baguettes. It takes me 15 - 20 mins in the car, it would be at least twice that on public transport. If I have to pay £15, then I'm simply not going. It's not worth the £15 charge or an hour on a bus to me. Multiply that tiny decision by everyone else inside the zone who has a choice about a discretionary spend and that's billions of pounds of lost economic activity.

[anonymous-user]

The OP is surprised by this??

As soon as the congestion charging zone was created and shown to raise revenue it was inevitable it would expand. I think Buzz Lightyear summed it up 'to infinity and beyond!!!'

[NomduJour]

Newc said:

If I have to pay £15, then I'm simply not going

Same, and for everyone else I know given the current CC situation - this appears to be entirely lost to the apologists on the ULEZ thread.

[pquinn]

NomduJour said:

Same, and for everyone else I know given the current CC situation - this appears to be entirely lost to the apologists on the ULEZ thread.

I assume the apologists are the usual mix of yogurt knitters and comfortably wealthy socialists who can afford to carry on as usual.

[fishseller]

I cant see the Gov going ahead with ULEZ expansion north / south circular it will affect millions of people who will probably not have jobs or moved to part time, through covid we could also have mass unemployment how will people afford to upgrade to new complying vehicles , it will be like the pole tax riots when people realize the financial implications

[NomduJour]

ULEZ expansion is very much still happening, the cameras are going up now.

[Jiebo]

As someone who drives a car and lives in inner london, I think this is a great scheme. It will cut down the traffic substantially.

I can easily afford to pay the residents 10% charge (90% discount almost certainly will come back), and it will get rid of all the homeboys from council estates driving around in leased cars, because they are already stretching to afford the £350pm payments.

Cut down pollution, make people healthier, make london much more pleasant. I’m all for it.

[Jiebo]

fishseller said:

I cant see the Gov going ahead with ULEZ expansion north / south circular it will affect millions of people who will probably not have jobs or moved to part time, through covid we could also have mass unemployment how will people afford to upgrade to new complying vehicles , it will be like the pole tax riots when people realize the financial implications

This has been planned for years, why would they not go ahead with it now? The fact people are not commuting into work makes the transition even easier for the crybabies who’s world is about to collapse because they need to buy a 2005 petrol car.
It absolutely wont be like poll tax, and there wont be riots. People make far too many short journeys in London, there are statistics that show most trips are <1 mile. People will just start to walk to their local shops instead of driving for 2 minutes.

The people who complain are almost entirely older people too. Ive not met a single person <40 that doesn’t want to reduce pollution in London and stop all these short trips.