Teacher decapitated in Paris by enraged parent.
Discussion
El stovey said:
jakesmith said:
France has had a large number of these now. Why so many in France? Colonial links or something?
Puts paid to the idiots who say 'we brought it upon ourselves as a result of foreign policy' when France didn't join the Iraq war as an example.
French forces were definitely in gulf war 1 and Afghanistan. Puts paid to the idiots who say 'we brought it upon ourselves as a result of foreign policy' when France didn't join the Iraq war as an example.
They’ve got a large Muslim population almost 6million (largest in Europe) due to their historic links with Algeria and Morocco and huge imports of workers in the 60s and 70s who then became french and had their families come over.
It’s been kicking off recently after the carton attacks in Paris and subsequent government clampdowns on radical Islam and some new laws brought regarding imams and doctors which are seen as anti Muslim by some.
There’s also socio economic problems where many of these Muslims are in poorer areas which are like ghettos stoking up radicalism and “Islamic separatism” as macron describes it.
Very difficult to resolve and not that different to problems occurring in the U.K. or Belgium where radicalisation (for whatever reason) hasn’t completely gone away.
I’d hoped the fall of isis and decrease in operations in the Middle East would help end all this madness but it seems like it doesn’t take much for radical Muslims to start beheading again.
It seems like many western countries have recognised that radicalisation was happening at certain mosques and targeted those leaders, maybe now there’s still problems with ghettos and groups being attracted to radical Islam due to socio economic issues like lack of father figures and poor economic outcomes etc.
voyds9 said:
Strange when we go to their country we are told their country their rules
But when they come here we have to pander to their feelings
Those people haven’t just “come here” though. They’re usually french nationals with french parents who were immigrants. These are often second or third generation french Muslims. It’s their country just that they think their religion trumps french law.But when they come here we have to pander to their feelings
Immigrants come legally from a poor country to France U.K. or wherever to work in a factory in the 60s or 70s
Kids grow up in poor area surrounded by other immigrants and their kids. They don’t integrate and are less well off than the rest of the country, they go to worse schools and get worse jobs and crime and violence become more common. Some bad imam comes along and says it’s not your fault come to my mosque and this is what the Koran teaches and gives them something to belong to and be part of and they become radicalised.
Then a newspaper in Paris publishes a cartoon of Alah and radicalisation gets worse or the government clamp down on imams or their mosque and they get really angry.
What’s the solution? Make them integrate? Ban their religion? Somehow improve their future chances?
Every country has poor areas and young people who are disenfranchised, if you add the right elements of religion or ideology it’s probably not hard to get recruits for your group if you’re recruiting.
s1962a said:
El stovey said:
jakesmith said:
France has had a large number of these now. Why so many in France? Colonial links or something?
Puts paid to the idiots who say 'we brought it upon ourselves as a result of foreign policy' when France didn't join the Iraq war as an example.
French forces were definitely in gulf war 1 and Afghanistan. Puts paid to the idiots who say 'we brought it upon ourselves as a result of foreign policy' when France didn't join the Iraq war as an example.
They’ve got a large Muslim population almost 6million (largest in Europe) due to their historic links with Algeria and Morocco and huge imports of workers in the 60s and 70s who then became french and had their families come over.
It’s been kicking off recently after the carton attacks in Paris and subsequent government clampdowns on radical Islam and some new laws brought regarding imams and doctors which are seen as anti Muslim by some.
There’s also socio economic problems where many of these Muslims are in poorer areas which are like ghettos stoking up radicalism and “Islamic separatism” as macron describes it.
Very difficult to resolve and not that different to problems occurring in the U.K. or Belgium where radicalisation (for whatever reason) hasn’t completely gone away.
I’d hoped the fall of isis and decrease in operations in the Middle East would help end all this madness but it seems like it doesn’t take much for radical Muslims to start beheading again.
It seems like many western countries have recognised that radicalisation was happening at certain mosques and targeted those leaders, maybe now there’s still problems with ghettos and groups being attracted to radical Islam due to socio economic issues like lack of father figures and poor economic outcomes etc.
fesuvious said:
Brigitte Gabriel had been banging the accurate - correct drum for years
It's hard to disagree with that to be honest. All of the evidence supports it. And, when the security guard at Manchester arena suspected the terrorist but didn't say anything for fear of being branded rascist, you know just how much trouble we are in. 
El stovey said:
French forces were definitely in gulf war 1 and Afghanistan.
They’ve got a large Muslim population almost 6million (largest in Europe) due to their historic links with Algeria and Morocco and huge imports of workers in the 60s and 70s who then became french and had their families come over.
It’s been kicking off recently after the carton attacks in Paris and subsequent government clampdowns on radical Islam and some new laws brought regarding imams and doctors which are seen as anti Muslim by some.
There’s also socio economic problems where many of these Muslims are in poorer areas which are like ghettos stoking up radicalism and “Islamic separatism” as macron describes it.
Very difficult to resolve and not that different to problems occurring in the U.K. or Belgium where radicalisation (for whatever reason) hasn’t completely gone away.
I’d hoped the fall of isis and decrease in operations in the Middle East would help end all this madness but it seems like it doesn’t take much for radical Muslims to start beheading again.
It seems like many western countries have recognised that radicalisation was happening at certain mosques and targeted those leaders, maybe now there’s still problems with ghettos and groups being attracted to radical Islam due to socio economic issues like lack of father figures and poor economic outcomes etc.
Gulf war 1 was not seen as a western invasion / regime change though in the way that the 2nd invasion was. They were there ostensibly to liberate Kuwait & they left Saddam's Sunni regime (which is where the terrorism comes from) in place. This was not the cause of subsequent terror attacks AIUIThey’ve got a large Muslim population almost 6million (largest in Europe) due to their historic links with Algeria and Morocco and huge imports of workers in the 60s and 70s who then became french and had their families come over.
It’s been kicking off recently after the carton attacks in Paris and subsequent government clampdowns on radical Islam and some new laws brought regarding imams and doctors which are seen as anti Muslim by some.
There’s also socio economic problems where many of these Muslims are in poorer areas which are like ghettos stoking up radicalism and “Islamic separatism” as macron describes it.
Very difficult to resolve and not that different to problems occurring in the U.K. or Belgium where radicalisation (for whatever reason) hasn’t completely gone away.
I’d hoped the fall of isis and decrease in operations in the Middle East would help end all this madness but it seems like it doesn’t take much for radical Muslims to start beheading again.
It seems like many western countries have recognised that radicalisation was happening at certain mosques and targeted those leaders, maybe now there’s still problems with ghettos and groups being attracted to radical Islam due to socio economic issues like lack of father figures and poor economic outcomes etc.
The French contribution (4000 troops, UK was more like 10,000 and US was closer to 100,000) in Afghanistan paled in numbers compared to the UK & US yet (& I haven't done the numbers) I would guess that France is overrepresented in number of Islamic terror attacks and deaths per capita. Italy Germany & Canada sent similar numbers as France & haven't had the terror attacks. That alone can't be the cause.
WinkleHoff said:
I appreciate your sentiments. The problem is that we don't tackle extremism together; there is no clear delineation between extremist nutters on one hand and the rest of the Muslim world upon which you can build a way of tackling this. For example, how many Muslims have sympathies for these acts? How many Muslims live in the west peacefully but will not be friends with non Muslims? These people of course won't carry out such an act, and in that sense are "peaceful", but having a sympathy for an act underpins it and also negates tackling it. How many in islamic countries celebrated 9/11 and other atrocities? Is the Muslim world actually truly unified in condemnation? I suspect it is shades of gray here, and that is what makes it impossible. The future does not look good.
I'd have to disagree with you there. How many muslims have sympathies for these acts? I've never met even one. Any normal human being would be sickened by these acts.
there is no clear delineation between extremist nutters on one hand and the rest of the Muslim world upon which you can build a way of tackling this - there is. Hold the media to account for reporting fairly the sentiment of a country or a balanced view on muslim opinion. 1000 people holding up placards and burning effigies are not representative of a county of x hundred million. Also a rejection of extremist islam and an acceptance of mainstream islam in the west is a step closer.
How many in islamic countries celebrated 9/11 and other atrocities? Is the Muslim world actually truly unified in condemnation? Which countries celebrated 9/11 and other atrocities?
Do you know where the funding for a lot of islamist extremism comes from? We have to tackle our hypocrisy when dealing with said regimes too.
How many in islamic countries celebrated 9/11 and other atrocities? Is the Muslim world actually truly unified in condemnation? Which countries celebrated 9/11 and other atrocities?
Unfortunately, this is correct. My wife was working in Morocco during 9/11 and there were widespread celebrations on the street. She was told by her employer not to come to work and stay home until it was safe for Westerners to emerge. Yes, it died down relatively quickly but the sentiments were always there. I don't want to get into an argument about the US's foreign policy at that time etc but the fact remains that lots of people in the ME saw the attacks as perfectly justified.
Unfortunately, this is correct. My wife was working in Morocco during 9/11 and there were widespread celebrations on the street. She was told by her employer not to come to work and stay home until it was safe for Westerners to emerge. Yes, it died down relatively quickly but the sentiments were always there. I don't want to get into an argument about the US's foreign policy at that time etc but the fact remains that lots of people in the ME saw the attacks as perfectly justified.
jakesmith said:
El stovey said:
French forces were definitely in gulf war 1 and Afghanistan.
They’ve got a large Muslim population almost 6million (largest in Europe) due to their historic links with Algeria and Morocco and huge imports of workers in the 60s and 70s who then became french and had their families come over.
It’s been kicking off recently after the carton attacks in Paris and subsequent government clampdowns on radical Islam and some new laws brought regarding imams and doctors which are seen as anti Muslim by some.
There’s also socio economic problems where many of these Muslims are in poorer areas which are like ghettos stoking up radicalism and “Islamic separatism” as macron describes it.
Very difficult to resolve and not that different to problems occurring in the U.K. or Belgium where radicalisation (for whatever reason) hasn’t completely gone away.
I’d hoped the fall of isis and decrease in operations in the Middle East would help end all this madness but it seems like it doesn’t take much for radical Muslims to start beheading again.
It seems like many western countries have recognised that radicalisation was happening at certain mosques and targeted those leaders, maybe now there’s still problems with ghettos and groups being attracted to radical Islam due to socio economic issues like lack of father figures and poor economic outcomes etc.
Gulf war 1 was not seen as a western invasion / regime change though in the way that the 2nd invasion was. They were there ostensibly to liberate Kuwait & they left Saddam's Sunni regime (which is where the terrorism comes from) in place. This was not the cause of subsequent terror attacks AIUIThey’ve got a large Muslim population almost 6million (largest in Europe) due to their historic links with Algeria and Morocco and huge imports of workers in the 60s and 70s who then became french and had their families come over.
It’s been kicking off recently after the carton attacks in Paris and subsequent government clampdowns on radical Islam and some new laws brought regarding imams and doctors which are seen as anti Muslim by some.
There’s also socio economic problems where many of these Muslims are in poorer areas which are like ghettos stoking up radicalism and “Islamic separatism” as macron describes it.
Very difficult to resolve and not that different to problems occurring in the U.K. or Belgium where radicalisation (for whatever reason) hasn’t completely gone away.
I’d hoped the fall of isis and decrease in operations in the Middle East would help end all this madness but it seems like it doesn’t take much for radical Muslims to start beheading again.
It seems like many western countries have recognised that radicalisation was happening at certain mosques and targeted those leaders, maybe now there’s still problems with ghettos and groups being attracted to radical Islam due to socio economic issues like lack of father figures and poor economic outcomes etc.
The French contribution (4000 troops, UK was more like 10,000 and US was closer to 100,000) in Afghanistan paled in numbers compared to the UK & US yet (& I haven't done the numbers) I would guess that France is overrepresented in number of Islamic terror attacks and deaths per capita. Italy Germany & Canada sent similar numbers as France & haven't had the terror attacks. That alone can't be the cause.
The problems as I said are complex and due to non integration and subsequent ghettoisation of lower paid immigrant groups and other socio economic factors leading to a powder keg of resentment and disillusionment, ignited by bad imams teaching at certain mosques and schools who as part of their radicalisation use western foreign policy and treatment of Muslims to alienate the would be jihadists and embolden their beliefs.
It’s been worse lately due to the cartoon thing and macron apparently supporting the cartoon and free speech and clamping down on bad Imams and their teaching and changing some other laws about doctors providing things like virginity certificates for religious marriages.
Then other world leaders chip in saying France is anti Islam and more french radicals jihadists get fired up.
Madness when you consider that this recent violence is about whether someone should be allowed to draw a Devine being and whether those religious rules based on faith, should trump the laws of a country.
s1962a said:
I'd have to disagree with you there.
How many muslims have sympathies for these acts? I've never met even one. Any normal human being would be sickened by these acts.
It's also difficult to find Trump lawn banners. Doesn't mean he won't get 230 million votes next weekHow many muslims have sympathies for these acts? I've never met even one. Any normal human being would be sickened by these acts.
What is said in public and private can be very different
Iamnotkloot said:
How many in islamic countries celebrated 9/11 and other atrocities? Is the Muslim world actually truly unified in condemnation? Which countries celebrated 9/11 and other atrocities?
Unfortunately, this is correct. My wife was working in Morocco during 9/11 and there were widespread celebrations on the street. She was told by her employer not to come to work and stay home until it was safe for Westerners to emerge. Yes, it died down relatively quickly but the sentiments were always there. I don't want to get into an argument about the US's foreign policy at that time etc but the fact remains that lots of people in the ME saw the attacks as perfectly justified.
Morocco? Wow. I remember sitting at my desk when 9/11 was happening in horror and disbelief, and any muslim I met for months/years afterward had the same impression of it. Unfortunately, this is correct. My wife was working in Morocco during 9/11 and there were widespread celebrations on the street. She was told by her employer not to come to work and stay home until it was safe for Westerners to emerge. Yes, it died down relatively quickly but the sentiments were always there. I don't want to get into an argument about the US's foreign policy at that time etc but the fact remains that lots of people in the ME saw the attacks as perfectly justified.
voyds9 said:
s1962a said:
I'd have to disagree with you there.
How many muslims have sympathies for these acts? I've never met even one. Any normal human being would be sickened by these acts.
It's also difficult to find Trump lawn banners. Doesn't mean he won't get 230 million votes next weekHow many muslims have sympathies for these acts? I've never met even one. Any normal human being would be sickened by these acts.
What is said in public and private can be very different
El stovey said:
The problems as I said are complex and due to non integration and subsequent ghettoisation of lower paid immigrant groups and other socio economic factors leading to a powder keg of resentment and disillusionment, ignited by bad imams teaching at certain mosques and schools who as part of their radicalisation use western foreign policy and treatment of Muslims to alienate the would be jihadists and embolden their beliefs.
It’s been worse lately due to the cartoon thing and macron apparently supporting the cartoon and free speech and clamping down on bad Imams and their teaching and changing some other laws about doctors providing things like virginity certificates for religious marriages.
Then other world leaders chip in saying France is anti Islam and more french radicals jihadists get fired up.
Madness when you consider that this recent violence is about whether someone should be allowed to draw a Devine being and whether those religious rules based on faith, should trump the laws of a country.
The bit in bold is spot on. We need to weed out the people who teach this radicalisation, and especially tackle their funding sources. Take their money away and they wont have the resources to do more damage.It’s been worse lately due to the cartoon thing and macron apparently supporting the cartoon and free speech and clamping down on bad Imams and their teaching and changing some other laws about doctors providing things like virginity certificates for religious marriages.
Then other world leaders chip in saying France is anti Islam and more french radicals jihadists get fired up.
Madness when you consider that this recent violence is about whether someone should be allowed to draw a Devine being and whether those religious rules based on faith, should trump the laws of a country.
Socio economic factors - I think France has created it's own ghetto problem, for which there is no easy fix.
s1962a said:
El stovey said:
The problems as I said are complex and due to non integration and subsequent ghettoisation of lower paid immigrant groups and other socio economic factors leading to a powder keg of resentment and disillusionment, ignited by bad imams teaching at certain mosques and schools who as part of their radicalisation use western foreign policy and treatment of Muslims to alienate the would be jihadists and embolden their beliefs.
It’s been worse lately due to the cartoon thing and macron apparently supporting the cartoon and free speech and clamping down on bad Imams and their teaching and changing some other laws about doctors providing things like virginity certificates for religious marriages.
Then other world leaders chip in saying France is anti Islam and more french radicals jihadists get fired up.
Madness when you consider that this recent violence is about whether someone should be allowed to draw a Devine being and whether those religious rules based on faith, should trump the laws of a country.
The bit in bold is spot on. We need to weed out the people who teach this radicalisation, and especially tackle their funding sources. Take their money away and they wont have the resources to do more damage.It’s been worse lately due to the cartoon thing and macron apparently supporting the cartoon and free speech and clamping down on bad Imams and their teaching and changing some other laws about doctors providing things like virginity certificates for religious marriages.
Then other world leaders chip in saying France is anti Islam and more french radicals jihadists get fired up.
Madness when you consider that this recent violence is about whether someone should be allowed to draw a Devine being and whether those religious rules based on faith, should trump the laws of a country.
Socio economic factors - I think France has created it's own ghetto problem, for which there is no easy fix.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finsbury_Park_Mosque...
s1962a said:
Agreed. I've never met a muslim that has expressed any extremist views, publicly or privately. Have you?
Meet a couple who told me homosexuality should be illegalAnother one who told me I should stop drinking as it was forbidden
And final I would live eternally in Hell as only Muslims go to heaven.
And quite a few who although they didn't specifically condone terrorism thought 'we' only had ourselves to blame.
The former PM of Malaysia (he’s also a medical doctor which make his comments even more abhorrent).
https://twitter.com/chedetofficial/status/13217655...
https://twitter.com/chedetofficial/status/13217655...
voyds9 said:
s1962a said:
Agreed. I've never met a muslim that has expressed any extremist views, publicly or privately. Have you?
Meet a couple who told me homosexuality should be illegalAnother one who told me I should stop drinking as it was forbidden
And final I would live eternally in Hell as only Muslims go to heaven.
And quite a few who although they didn't specifically condone terrorism thought 'we' only had ourselves to blame.
Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.
Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others
Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS
Terrorism - can you expand on what you mean by 'only have ourselves to blame'?
BlackLabel said:
The former PM of Malaysia (he’s also a medical doctor which make his comments even more abhorrent).
https://twitter.com/chedetofficial/status/13217655...
Whew ladhttps://twitter.com/chedetofficial/status/13217655...
s1962a said:
voyds9 said:
s1962a said:
Agreed. I've never met a muslim that has expressed any extremist views, publicly or privately. Have you?
Meet a couple who told me homosexuality should be illegalAnother one who told me I should stop drinking as it was forbidden
And final I would live eternally in Hell as only Muslims go to heaven.
And quite a few who although they didn't specifically condone terrorism thought 'we' only had ourselves to blame.
Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.
Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others
Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS
s1962a said:
Thats really interesting - which social settings did you meet the people that told you these?
Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.
Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others
Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS
Terrorism - can you expand on what you mean by 'only have ourselves to blame'?
I think it’d be worth your time browsing the articles from Pew research.Homosexuality - i've heard this many times, and not only from muslims. My Jamaican friends are quite vocal about this topic.
Drinking? I know muslims that drink - not sure who told you to stop drinking, as it's only forbidden for muslims not to drink, not for others
Going to Hell - that one sounds like BS
Terrorism - can you expand on what you mean by 'only have ourselves to blame'?
It’s generally very high quality work, and does show that a surprisingly large fraction of Muslims hold views that we in the West generally view as problematic. The death penalty for adultery or homosexuality for example, or the need for a wife to always obey her husband.
The acceptance of suicide bombing is the big one. It’s at around 20% of Muslims who feel that it is sometimes acceptable.
In light of the data, it’s not really sensible to express incredulity when someone reports coming across the attitudes that we know to be prevalent.
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