Suspected terror attack in Nice
Discussion
Lotobear said:
It's subtle though and usually takes the form of an evasion of outright condemnation or a defensive condemnation of 'all forms of violence' without directly condeming the ones how go all 'choppy' on the innocents - really means the same thing, namely that they do sympathise. It's a bit like the politicians favourite - "I apologise if my words caused any offence or made you feel that way". Reminds me a bit of Jezza and Ken with the whole Jewish thing
It's called 'doing a Corbyn'.I see the former Prime Minister of Malaysia is trying to calm things down,
"Mahathir Mohamad called Emmanuel Macron "primitive" for blaming Islam and that "Muslims have a right to be angry and to kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past".
Dr Mohamad went on to suggest that the way women dress in the West, and indeed equality between the sexes, are values that are not necessarily compatible with the rest of the world"
This, apparently, on Twitter.
Jeeze,
"Mahathir Mohamad called Emmanuel Macron "primitive" for blaming Islam and that "Muslims have a right to be angry and to kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past".
Dr Mohamad went on to suggest that the way women dress in the West, and indeed equality between the sexes, are values that are not necessarily compatible with the rest of the world"
This, apparently, on Twitter.
Jeeze,
A Winner Is You said:
I'll post a picture, but only if we have have some official confirmation that doing so won't result in my account being suspended or banned.
I was tempted to post the pictures of the Hebdo images as projected on the Toulouse Town Hall last week, but didn't want to risk an outright ban.AJL308 said:
We live in a society the values of which allow us to take the piss out of religion. Don't like it? f
k off somewhere that will enforce that. It really is that simple and politicians needs to start saying it.
we really don't though and we can't do this towards the prophet so almost no one does.k off somewhere that will enforce that. It really is that simple and politicians needs to start saying it. Iamnotkloot said:
...
Dr Mohamad went on to suggest that the way women dress in the West, and indeed equality between the sexes, are values that are not necessarily compatible with the rest of the world"...
He's right though.Dr Mohamad went on to suggest that the way women dress in the West, and indeed equality between the sexes, are values that are not necessarily compatible with the rest of the world"...
We look from our perspective and think everyone who doesn't follow our doctrines is "wrong". We have to realise they are doing the same thing.
We may think it's backward and f
ked up and lacks enlightenment. But saying those things to the other party isn't likely to win them over or change their minds over night 
It's taken us thousands of years to evolve our belief systems in the "West"...and even then much of the enlightenment people often take for granted here has come about in the last 100 years. Hell, some of it in the last decade and we continue to struggle with further elements that even indigenous people here struggle with today.
We should not expect everyone else to believe in the same things we do, and we should take great care in decrying alternative belief systems and what we wish to do about them.
Of course people committing heinous crimes here cannot be tolerated. But all we can do is use our structures to prosecute those who do. The West invited other cultures in, more often than not for very selfish reasons. And in the most part I believe for the better. But that cannot now be undone after an acceleration of immigration over the last 50-60yrs.
We have to try and find smarter ways to deal with it, though I suspect there is no absolute remedy possible.
Murph7355 said:
He's right though.
We look from our perspective and think everyone who doesn't follow our doctrines is "wrong". We have to realise they are doing the same thing.
We may think it's backward and fked up and lacks enlightenment. But saying those things to the other party isn't likely to win them over or change their minds over night
It's taken us thousands of years to evolve our belief systems in the "West"...and even then much of the enlightenment people often take for granted here has come about in the last 100 years. Hell, some of it in the last decade and we continue to struggle with further elements that even indigenous people here struggle with today.
We should not expect everyone else to believe in the same things we do, and we should take great care in decrying alternative belief systems and what we wish to do about them.
Of course people committing heinous crimes here cannot be tolerated. But all we can do is use our structures to prosecute those who do. The West invited other cultures in, more often than not for very selfish reasons. And in the most part I believe for the better. But that cannot now be undone after an acceleration of immigration over the last 50-60yrs.
We have to try and find smarter ways to deal with it, though I suspect there is no absolute remedy possible.
This is all very fair, but as someone with a foot in both camps(ex-muslim, father from a gulf state) I would implore people not to submit to cultural relativism.We look from our perspective and think everyone who doesn't follow our doctrines is "wrong". We have to realise they are doing the same thing.
We may think it's backward and f
ked up and lacks enlightenment. But saying those things to the other party isn't likely to win them over or change their minds over night It's taken us thousands of years to evolve our belief systems in the "West"...and even then much of the enlightenment people often take for granted here has come about in the last 100 years. Hell, some of it in the last decade and we continue to struggle with further elements that even indigenous people here struggle with today.
We should not expect everyone else to believe in the same things we do, and we should take great care in decrying alternative belief systems and what we wish to do about them.
Of course people committing heinous crimes here cannot be tolerated. But all we can do is use our structures to prosecute those who do. The West invited other cultures in, more often than not for very selfish reasons. And in the most part I believe for the better. But that cannot now be undone after an acceleration of immigration over the last 50-60yrs.
We have to try and find smarter ways to deal with it, though I suspect there is no absolute remedy possible.
People should be able to say western, secular, liberal enlightment values are better than Sharia without fear of accusations of racism, fear of prosecution for hatespeech or worse, physical threat from those who hold Sharia more dear than the enlightenment
s1962a said:
I'll try and answer this one.
Publish the pictures, be as satirical as you like, but dont go crying and 'recall ambassadors' as such when people insult you too - like what Macron did when Erdogan said he needs a 'mental check'. Also less of the hypocrisy when it comes to who we do big business with and sell arms too.
You know the Erdogan / Macron beef is rooted in Libya?Publish the pictures, be as satirical as you like, but dont go crying and 'recall ambassadors' as such when people insult you too - like what Macron did when Erdogan said he needs a 'mental check'. Also less of the hypocrisy when it comes to who we do big business with and sell arms too.
Sam.M said:
This is all very fair, but as someone with a foot in both camps(ex-muslim, father from a gulf state) I would implore people not to submit to cultural relativism.
People should be able to say western, secular, liberal enlightment values are better than Sharia without fear of accusations of racism, fear of prosecution for hatespeech or worse, physical threat from those who hold Sharia more dear than the enlightenment
Of course they should just as those who believe otherwise can claim the opposite.People should be able to say western, secular, liberal enlightment values are better than Sharia without fear of accusations of racism, fear of prosecution for hatespeech or worse, physical threat from those who hold Sharia more dear than the enlightenment
That is not the same though as it being automatic that everyone will believe this, because they wont. The liberal belief was that everyone they admitted would recognise the superiority of western values and adopt them.
Despite all its claims to "tolerance" and "multiculturalism" the roots of this lie in the overconfidence of western liberals in the power of their belief system.
JagLover said:
Sam.M said:
This is all very fair, but as someone with a foot in both camps(ex-muslim, father from a gulf state) I would implore people not to submit to cultural relativism.
People should be able to say western, secular, liberal enlightment values are better than Sharia without fear of accusations of racism, fear of prosecution for hatespeech or worse, physical threat from those who hold Sharia more dear than the enlightenment
Of course they should just as those who believe otherwise can claim the opposite.People should be able to say western, secular, liberal enlightment values are better than Sharia without fear of accusations of racism, fear of prosecution for hatespeech or worse, physical threat from those who hold Sharia more dear than the enlightenment
That is not the same though as it being automatic that everyone will believe this, because they wont. The liberal belief was that everyone they admitted would recognise the superiority of western values and adopt them.
Despite all its claims to "tolerance" and "multiculturalism" the roots of this lie in the overconfidence of western liberals in the power of their belief system.
Murph7355 said:
Iamnotkloot said:
...
Dr Mohamad went on to suggest that the way women dress in the West, and indeed equality between the sexes, are values that are not necessarily compatible with the rest of the world"...
He's right though.Dr Mohamad went on to suggest that the way women dress in the West, and indeed equality between the sexes, are values that are not necessarily compatible with the rest of the world"...
We look from our perspective and think everyone who doesn't follow our doctrines is "wrong". We have to realise they are doing the same thing.
We may think it's backward and f
ked up and lacks enlightenment. But saying those things to the other party isn't likely to win them over or change their minds over night It's taken us thousands of years to evolve our belief systems in the "West"...and even then much of the enlightenment people often take for granted here has come about in the last 100 years. Hell, some of it in the last decade and we continue to struggle with further elements that even indigenous people here struggle with today.
We should not expect everyone else to believe in the same things we do, and we should take great care in decrying alternative belief systems and what we wish to do about them.
Of course people committing heinous crimes here cannot be tolerated. But all we can do is use our structures to prosecute those who do. The West invited other cultures in, more often than not for very selfish reasons. And in the most part I believe for the better. But that cannot now be undone after an acceleration of immigration over the last 50-60yrs.
We have to try and find smarter ways to deal with it, though I suspect there is no absolute remedy possible.
andy_s said:
s1962a said:
I'll try and answer this one.
Publish the pictures, be as satirical as you like, but dont go crying and 'recall ambassadors' as such when people insult you too - like what Macron did when Erdogan said he needs a 'mental check'. Also less of the hypocrisy when it comes to who we do big business with and sell arms too.
You know the Erdogan / Macron beef is rooted in Libya?Publish the pictures, be as satirical as you like, but dont go crying and 'recall ambassadors' as such when people insult you too - like what Macron did when Erdogan said he needs a 'mental check'. Also less of the hypocrisy when it comes to who we do big business with and sell arms too.
Iamnotkloot said:
I see the former Prime Minister of Malaysia is trying to calm things down,
"Mahathir Mohamad called Emmanuel Macron "primitive" for blaming Islam and that "Muslims have a right to be angry and to kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past".
Dr Mohamad went on to suggest that the way women dress in the West, and indeed equality between the sexes, are values that are not necessarily compatible with the rest of the world"
This, apparently, on Twitter.
Jeeze,
"Today a little string covers the most secret place, that’s all. In fact, many in the west are totally naked when on certain beaches."Mahathir Mohamad called Emmanuel Macron "primitive" for blaming Islam and that "Muslims have a right to be angry and to kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past".
Dr Mohamad went on to suggest that the way women dress in the West, and indeed equality between the sexes, are values that are not necessarily compatible with the rest of the world"
This, apparently, on Twitter.
Jeeze,
Generally, the west no longer adhere to their own religion. They are Christians in name only"
from my experience hardly anyone I've ever met in the last 15 years is actually christian in the sense that they go to church, read the bible, have any knowledge of the religion or care about it at all.
when people refer to the 'west' has being christian it's b
ks imopeople will wear whatever they want on a beach...
i4got said:
So to summarise - he's right for saying that Western values are incompatible with the rest of the world, we're wrong for suggesting that Islamic values are incompatible with the Western world.
You need to work on your summarisation skills as that is not what he said.He is perfectly within his rights to hold that view and it is technically correct. A large amount of the planet holds views very different to our own.
Equally we are perfectly within our rights to think the more extreme interpretations are retarded.
Now we have our rights out of the way though, how do we tackle the mutual exclusivity of those views?
I suspect the best recourse for us is to apply our rules and justice structures to anyone breaking them. And to do so consistently.
Murph7355 said:
i4got said:
So to summarise - he's right for saying that Western values are incompatible with the rest of the world, we're wrong for suggesting that Islamic values are incompatible with the Western world.
You need to work on your summarisation skills as that is not what he said.He is perfectly within his rights to hold that view and it is technically correct. A large amount of the planet holds views very different to our own.
Equally we are perfectly within our rights to think the more extreme interpretations are retarded.
Now we have our rights out of the way though, how do we tackle the mutual exclusivity of those views?
I suspect the best recourse for us is to apply our rules and justice structures to anyone breaking them. And to do so consistently.
Taylor James said:
Except lines are no longer so clearly drawn. What is acceptable here now? It's clear we've largely allowed ourselves to be intimidated out of risking causing offence to some groups. The lines are very clearly drawn in countries like Saudi, There is no conflict about traditional values there. Try making the argument here and you can be sure it will only get harder. There's always a tipping point so eventually our values can be replaced.
In the heat of the moment I can see where that view comes from.But in reality, is it *really* that bad? Is serious conflict really that prevalent?
I get that "one death is one too many" and genuinely agree with it. But there are whack jobs in every walk of life - look at the cocksocket that killed Jo Cox. Whilst I appreciate some on here would like it to happen, do we round up every Brexit voter and ship them off to gitmo?
As long as the rule of law is followed, and democratic process is followed, we need to be careful how much further we react. Not to say we ignore the challenges, but great care is needed not to throw babies out with bathwater.
Murph7355 said:
i4got said:
So to summarise - he's right for saying that Western values are incompatible with the rest of the world, we're wrong for suggesting that Islamic values are incompatible with the Western world.
You need to work on your summarisation skills as that is not what he said.He is perfectly within his rights to hold that view and it is technically correct. A large amount of the planet holds views very different to our own.
Equally we are perfectly within our rights to think the more extreme interpretations are retarded.
Now we have our rights out of the way though, how do we tackle the mutual exclusivity of those views?
I suspect the best recourse for us is to apply our rules and justice structures to anyone breaking them. And to do so consistently.
Only one side of the argument is advocating cutting peoples heads off if they disagree with them. Slightly lost the moral argument there.
We don't need to give his views any consideration. It's not as though people in France are asking for gay marriage in Saudi. Let backwards countries be run by backwards religions as much as they want. But don't tell the West they have to adjust their standards to fit in with that backward religion.
WCZ said:
"Today a little string covers the most secret place, that’s all. In fact, many in the west are totally naked when on certain beaches.
Generally, the west no longer adhere to their own religion. They are Christians in name only"
from my experience hardly anyone I've ever met in the last 15 years is actually christian in the sense that they go to church, read the bible, have any knowledge of the religion or care about it at all.
when people refer to the 'west' has being christian it's bks imo
people will wear whatever they want on a beach...
Its all people trying to tell others how to live. I think its ridiculous having a beard and wearing what look like sheets or curtains but to date I have resisted getting uppity about it or telling people they are not allowed to do it.Generally, the west no longer adhere to their own religion. They are Christians in name only"
from my experience hardly anyone I've ever met in the last 15 years is actually christian in the sense that they go to church, read the bible, have any knowledge of the religion or care about it at all.
when people refer to the 'west' has being christian it's b
ks imopeople will wear whatever they want on a beach...
We need to make a global list of things we can agree we don't like and use that as the basis of our societies.
Lets start with a few basics :
Don't kill people.
Don't hurt people, physically or mentally.
Don't steal stuff, or money.
Don't cheat or go back on your word.
Don't put your cock in places its not wanted/asked for/is too young/is married to someone else (unless they are cool with it)
This should do for starters, anyone else fancy adding to it ? We don't need a big list. less is more as they say.
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