Why the Corbyn hatred?
Discussion
Kent Border Kenny said:
Chrissyboy555 said:
It’s all very well you powerfully built know it all’s slagging him off. As though what you say is 100% correct lol I’d love to be that self confident .
However labour weren’t that far off getting into power with him when all said and done.
So he obviously had plenty of support.
Not here of course with ya flash cars and look at me aren’t I clever mentalities
He lead them to the largest election defeat in 80 years, giving the Conservatives a big enough majority that they can put through nearly any legislation that they want.However labour weren’t that far off getting into power with him when all said and done.
So he obviously had plenty of support.
Not here of course with ya flash cars and look at me aren’t I clever mentalities
In the 2017 election he returned 55 seats fewer than the Conservatives did. That's far off getting into power.
As for the "clever" but, I am amazed that people still sneer at others because they are intelligent. It's real old Labour to do that, to look down on people with a good level of general intelligence, and to look up to people like Corbyn, who are severely mentally challenged, as this somehow makes them more "real".
Why do you do this? Why do you hold up idiocy as a good thing? It's not anything to criticise someone for, as it's innate, but we don't want people with an 85 IQ heading government.
Biggest mistake? No aspiration. No clear easily explained positive message. Just a long list of "it's not fair"s. Oh, and a 250bn green fund, a 150bn social plan and a 200+bn train set. Anybody with more than one finger to count on could figure out it was nuts.
The quiet majority does sum it up.
This is from another thread which is why the perception of that support can be so skewed from reality - check the second graph :
FiF said:
Biggy Stardust said:
MC Bodge said:
The votes are spread more evenly than here.
Do you prefer UK/US single party dictatorship because you have always known it?
Wasn't there one of those coalition government thingies not so very long ago? I think the conservatives & the lib dems had something going.Do you prefer UK/US single party dictatorship because you have always known it?
k all getting done.MC Bodge said:
It was a long way off in terms of seats, but not so much in terms of the popular vote.
The UK system really is skewed. Look at the numbers of votes compard with the number of seats for the different parties.... The SNP vote punches above its weight (compare with the Greens and the Lib Dems). You need only win a seat by one vote as the biggest minority in a constituency. Labour balls-ed up by not supporting electoral reform when they had the chance.
Of course FPTP typically rewards the party that wins the popular vote with a disproportionate number of seats; that's kind of the point. It also gives local issue parties an outsized number of seats hence the SNP vs. for example UKIP. Just looking at one year tells you very little though, in fact if the electoral boundaries were evened up the Tories would have won far more seats with the same number of votes. The current FPTP boundaries hugely favour Labour with Tories typically needing more votes to win 1 seat. The most egregious example of the skew is the results for England in 2005;The UK system really is skewed. Look at the numbers of votes compard with the number of seats for the different parties.... The SNP vote punches above its weight (compare with the Greens and the Lib Dems). You need only win a seat by one vote as the biggest minority in a constituency. Labour balls-ed up by not supporting electoral reform when they had the chance.
Labour 286 seats 8,043,461 votes
Tory 194 seats 8,116,005 votes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/vote2005/html/eng...
fblm said:
Of course FPTP typically rewards the party that wins the popular vote with a disproportionate number of seats; that's kind of the point. It also gives local issue parties an outsized number of seats hence the SNP vs. for example UKIP. Just looking at one year tells you very little though, in fact if the electoral boundaries were evened up the Tories would have won far more seats with the same number of votes. The current FPTP boundaries hugely favour Labour with Tories typically needing more votes to win 1 seat. The most egregious example of the skew is the results for England in 2005;
Labour 286 seats 8,043,461 votes
Tory 194 seats 8,116,005 votes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/vote2005/html/eng...
Yes, the system should be changed. Labour 286 seats 8,043,461 votes
Tory 194 seats 8,116,005 votes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/vote2005/html/eng...
The SNP have hoovered up seats in Scotland, so only the Tories are in a position to win a mjorit in Westminster under the current system. Their landslide came from 42% of the vote. I.e 58% didn't vote for them, even with the tactical voting against Corbyn.
98elise said:
Biggy Stardust said:
MC Bodge said:
The votes are spread more evenly than here.
Do you prefer UK/US single party dictatorship because you have always known it?
Wasn't there one of those coalition government thingies not so very long ago? I think the conservatives & the lib dems had something going.Do you prefer UK/US single party dictatorship because you have always known it?
k all getting done.It's not as if countries with German, Dutch, Irish or NZ style systems are all basket cases, is it?
MC Bodge said:
Yes, the system should be changed.
The SNP have hoovered up seats in Scotland, so only the Tories are in a position to win a mjorit in Westminster under the current system. Their landslide came from 42% of the vote. I.e 58% didn't vote for them, even with the tactical voting against Corbyn.
I think you miss my point. I can't help thinking we've had this conversation before. The current system is heavily rigged against the Tories. If Labour got the same number of votes they would win an easy majority of seats. Furthermore even if Labour had won every single SNP seat they would have still lost by well over 100 seats. All that said, I agree FPTP is a strange system. But... which electoral system around the world results in demonstrably better governance? German, Swiss maybe? Germans I think have a hybrid PR/FPTP and Swiss lots of referenda on everything and both seem particularly well run to me.The SNP have hoovered up seats in Scotland, so only the Tories are in a position to win a mjorit in Westminster under the current system. Their landslide came from 42% of the vote. I.e 58% didn't vote for them, even with the tactical voting against Corbyn.
fblm said:
I think you miss my point. I can't help thinking we've had this conversation before. The current system is heavily rigged against the Tories. If Labour got the same number of votes they would win an easy majority of seats. Furthermore even if Labour had won every single SNP seat they would have still lost by well over 100 seats. All that said, I agree FPTP is a strange system. But... which electoral system around the world results in demonstrably better governance? German, Swiss maybe? Germans I think have a hybrid PR/FPTP and Swiss lots of referenda on everything and both seem particularly well run to me.
I understood your point about the Tories. I still think the system should be changed. Germany, NZ etc have a vote PR vote and a vote for a representative. It is mostly PR.
fblm said:
MC Bodge said:
Yes, the system should be changed.
The SNP have hoovered up seats in Scotland, so only the Tories are in a position to win a mjorit in Westminster under the current system. Their landslide came from 42% of the vote. I.e 58% didn't vote for them, even with the tactical voting against Corbyn.
I think you miss my point. I can't help thinking we've had this conversation before. The current system is heavily rigged against the Tories. If Labour got the same number of votes they would win an easy majority of seats. Furthermore even if Labour had won every single SNP seat they would have still lost by well over 100 seats. All that said, I agree FPTP is a strange system. But... which electoral system around the world results in demonstrably better governance? German, Swiss maybe? Germans I think have a hybrid PR/FPTP and Swiss lots of referenda on everything and both seem particularly well run to me.The SNP have hoovered up seats in Scotland, so only the Tories are in a position to win a mjorit in Westminster under the current system. Their landslide came from 42% of the vote. I.e 58% didn't vote for them, even with the tactical voting against Corbyn.
I for one like the adversarial format of our parliament. It gets things done. A committee-oriented approach to decision-making leads to erosional compromises.
SpeckledJim said:
In the case of those two countries it may be more to do with national character than the formal structure of their governance which gives the impression of competence and stability?
I for one like the adversarial format of our parliament. It gets things done. A committee-oriented approach to decision-making leads to erosional compromises.
Germans are not vastly different to British people. Neither are Dutch or Danish. I for one like the adversarial format of our parliament. It gets things done. A committee-oriented approach to decision-making leads to erosional compromises.
MC Bodge said:
SpeckledJim said:
In the case of those two countries it may be more to do with national character than the formal structure of their governance which gives the impression of competence and stability?
I for one like the adversarial format of our parliament. It gets things done. A committee-oriented approach to decision-making leads to erosional compromises.
Germans are not vastly different to British people. Neither are Dutch or Danish. I for one like the adversarial format of our parliament. It gets things done. A committee-oriented approach to decision-making leads to erosional compromises.
I used to watch Eurotrash. They're sex people, Lynn.
SpeckledJim said:
You're free to attribute it to the system rather than the people, but I don't think a swap to PR would make the UK feel any more like Germany.
I used to watch Eurotrash. They're sex people, Lynn.
They have a shelf down inside their toilets onto which you pooh, so you can have a bit of a poke around in it before flushing.I used to watch Eurotrash. They're sex people, Lynn.
Kent Border Kenny said:
SpeckledJim said:
You're free to attribute it to the system rather than the people, but I don't think a swap to PR would make the UK feel any more like Germany.
I used to watch Eurotrash. They're sex people, Lynn.
They have a shelf down inside their toilets onto which you pooh, so you can have a bit of a poke around in it before flushing.I used to watch Eurotrash. They're sex people, Lynn.
Down with this sort of thing!
SpeckledJim said:
Kent Border Kenny said:
SpeckledJim said:
You're free to attribute it to the system rather than the people, but I don't think a swap to PR would make the UK feel any more like Germany.
I used to watch Eurotrash. They're sex people, Lynn.
They have a shelf down inside their toilets onto which you pooh, so you can have a bit of a poke around in it before flushing.I used to watch Eurotrash. They're sex people, Lynn.
Down with this sort of thing!
Shudder.
MC Bodge said:
Before we knew it we'd be naked in saunas, speaking second languages, not throwing litter everywhere, riding bikes around town, happier and working closely with our neighbouring countries.
Shudder.
Like they worked closely with Poland, France and Belgium?Shudder.
You can’t really big-up positive national characterstics like that without at least acknowledging the slightly less positive traits too.
Kent Border Kenny said:
MC Bodge said:
Before we knew it we'd be naked in saunas, speaking second languages, not throwing litter everywhere, riding bikes around town, happier and working closely with our neighbouring countries.
Shudder.
Like they worked closely with Poland, France and Belgium?Shudder.
You can’t really big-up positive national characterstics like that without at least acknowledging the slightly less positive traits too.
Maybe PR would result in slimmer people too?
MC Bodge said:
Some people like to look backwards 80 years, others like to look forward. The Germany of today was rebuilt after the dreadful events of the past.
Maybe PR would result in slimmer people too?
Not if the Germans are anything to go by. We’ve an office there, and I visited often before the lockdown. Wonderful people, but not noticeably slim.Maybe PR would result in slimmer people too?
MC Bodge said:
Some people like to look backwards 80 years, others like to look forward. The Germany of today was rebuilt after the dreadful events of the past.
Agreed but imho, care needs to be taken regarding the use of the word forward. Forward in time and beneficial progress don't always go hand in hand.For example, I think Brexit happened because they many in the UK did not consider the EU's long term plan going forward actually constituted progress.
Crackie said:
MC Bodge said:
Some people like to look backwards 80 years, others like to look forward. The Germany of today was rebuilt after the dreadful events of the past.
Agreed but imho, care needs to be taken regarding the use of the word forward. Forward in time and beneficial progress don't always go hand in hand.For example, I think Brexit happened because they many in the UK did not consider the EU's long term plan going forward actually constituted progress.
I chose to vote out as there was insufficient oversight should things be decided against my wishes.
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