How many have been vaccinated so far?

[carreauchompeur]

Almost undoubtedly. There are ongoing trials regarding combining flu jab and COVID jab annually (I was invited to take part but lived too far away to make it practical).

I imagine there’s a lot of data emerging about the longevity of the protection from the original trials too, will be good to see.

[andy43]

IIRC there was a theory that those who’d been through sars in 2003 had the T cells to deal with covid 17 years later. Asia may have coped with covid better than the west because of prior exposure to similar viruses.
You’d hope the current vaccines would leave enough memory in a half decent immune system in a healthy individual to recognise a new variant and give it at least a bit of a kicking.
Drugs manufacturers may not agree.

[turbobloke]

andy43 said:

IIRC there was a theory that those who’d been through sars in 2003 had the T cells to deal with covid 17 years later. Asia may have coped with covid better than the west because of prior exposure to similar viruses.
You’d hope the current vaccines would leave enough memory in a half decent immune system in a healthy individual to recognise a new variant and give it at least a bit of a kicking.
Drugs manufacturers may not agree.

There are a few (4 or 5?) coronaviruses which cause a common cold, compared to many more (100s?) rhinoviruses which do the same. If only there was more common ground with covid.

[isaldiri]

andy43 said:

You’d hope the current vaccines would leave enough memory in a half decent immune system in a healthy individual to recognise a new variant and give it at least a bit of a kicking..

in that case why are people so panicky about variants that mass vaccination of everyone irrespective of risk is being targeted if as you say it's likely there is a good chance there will be sufficient immune menory from the current ones to successfully recognise a new variant......?

[vaud]

vaud said:

Mine was today in Bradford, appropriately in a pharmacy that has been there for 180 years (Rimmingtons) which has a fascinating history.

Flawless organization, in and through in 10 mins

Polite and friendly staff keen to put you at ease.

Side effects: I couldn't get warm on Friday - brain was fine but body was cold (no fever) - so I worked from bed under 2 duvets and a hot water bottle.

Bit stiff this morning and my arm feels like someone punched it (dead-arm playground style) but apart from that it's now all good.

[21st Century Man]

isaldiri said:

andy43 said:

You’d hope the current vaccines would leave enough memory in a half decent immune system in a healthy individual to recognise a new variant and give it at least a bit of a kicking..

in that case why are people so panicky about variants that mass vaccination of everyone irrespective of risk is being targeted if as you say it's likely there is a good chance there will be sufficient immune menory from the current ones to successfully recognise a new variant......?

I read somewhere that a typical mutation is in the order of 3% different, the vaccine can cope with a 30% difference which can't happen in one go anyway, it takes many variants of a variant of a variant to drift that far away from the original. Sorry I can't remember where I read that or I'd post it.

[Vanden Saab]

Getting back to the thread title, everybody over the age of 75 along with health and social care workers have now had their 2nd jab and the over 70s should be done in a week or so.

[superlightr]

Vanden Saab said:

Getting back to the thread title, everybody over the age of 75 along with health and social care workers have now had their 2nd jab and the over 70s should be done in a week or so.

offered.

[NRS]

chip* said:

Biker 1 said:

purplepenguin said:

When will the booster jabs be starting?

I'm guessing they'll need to start rolling it out end of June, 6 months after the programme started - or is 12 months between boosters being suggested?!

Pfizer announced booster is likely to be required between 6-12 months after the second dose.[kerchang!!!]

https://news.sky.com/story/people-will-likely-need...

The vaccination programme started Dec-20 with 2nd jab commencing late Feb-21, so the booster jab could start anytime around late Aug-21.

I'm really skeptical of this whole Pfizer thing. Used public research but still making big profits, basically dumping the company they linked with once they got going (Biotech - i.e. once we've "stolen" your data we don't need you), charging a lot more money than others, put their prices up once AZ and Janssen was blocked, have financial links that weren't declared to the scientists who proved the AZ link (it's being reported as 1:40 000 chance of them here in Norway, as they're not looking at worldwide data) and so on. 4 people have died from it... far less than Covid even here in Norway - but it's been blocked. They've even made a new disease name for it over here.

[mybrainhurts]

15% of NHS staff refusing, 50% of US marines refusing.

[turbobloke]

mybrainhurts said:

15% of NHS staff refusing, 50% of US marines refusing.

Ooh..rah.

[snuffy]

turbobloke said:

mybrainhurts said:

15% of NHS staff refusing, 50% of US marines refusing.

Ooh..rah.

15% of NHs staff remain un-vaccinated:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/17/fear...

[WatchfulEye]

21st Century Man said:

I read somewhere that a typical mutation is in the order of 3% different, the vaccine can cope with a 30% difference which can't happen in one go anyway, it takes many variants of a variant of a variant to drift that far away from the original. Sorry I can't remember where I read that or I'd post it.

That's really not at all how it works.

Immunity works by recognising the shape of the surface of an antigen. Immune responses develop when a new antigen is discovered with a unique shape which is not shared with normal body tissues.

Typical antigens have both surface shape and internal structure - but the immune responses cannot see the internal structure. So any mutations which affect the internal structure, but not the external shape will not have any effect on immunity.

Similarly, much of the external shape of the antigen is fairly generic and blobby and doesn't trigger the immune system particularly vigorously in many people. However, there are other points on the antigen which have quite unique and distinctive shapes, and the immune system preferentially learns these areas. Mutations which affect these unique areas may result in disproportionately strong impacts on immunity.

The mutations which are being reported as variants of concern, are of concern precisely because they represent significant shape changes in the shape of unique parts of the antigen. For example, the SA variant has 3 mutations in key areas, with typically 5-8 additional non-key mutations (out of a total of 1276 possible mutation positions).

There also appears to be interaction between different mutations - e.g. the 3 key SA variant mutations together seem to have a strong effect on antibody recognition (roughly 90% reduction in potency of antibodies developed against the "wild-type" antigen - i.e. vaccine). However, individual single mutations so far seem to result in far less effect.

As a final note, a 90% reduction in antibody potency doesn't necessarily mean that the immunity is ineffective - in most people, the vaccine results in the immune system producing a huge excess quantity of antibody (esp. after the 2nd dose) - so even a bad antibody, if present in plentiful amounts, is likely to be effective.

[21TonyK]

Plenty of NHS staff doing their 15 minute wait with me right now.

[Nimby]

WatchfulEye said:

That's really not at all how it works.

Immunity works by recognising the shape of the surface of an antigen. Immune responses develop when a new antigen is discovered with a unique shape which is not shared with normal body tissues.

Typical antigens have both surface shape and internal structure - but the immune responses cannot see the internal structure. So any mutations which affect the internal structure, but not the external shape will not have any effect on immunity.

That's true for antibodies, but there's more (according to this Steve Mould video).

That says that, as part of normal cellular housekeeping, proteins are chopped up into shorter lengths (and later to their amino acids for reuse). Some of those short lengths of protein are transported outside the surface of the cell and presented to the immune system's killer cells. There will be random selection of protein sections exposed; mostly OK, but if the cell is infected, some alien.

If those fragments aren't recognised, the cell is killed. So it wouldn't matter if the foreign protein segment is from the surface or the interior of the virus.

A secondary immune system mechanism later evolved in mammals*. This also kills the cell if the virus has evolved a way to interfere with the first process, but that's what can lead to the dangerous "cytokine storm" in rare cases.

• oops - just rewatched - it's all vertebrates.

Edited by Nimby on Sunday 18th April 14:46

[spikeyhead]

More progress, daily jabs

First, second total
139,445 499,635 639,080

62.4% first, 18.9% second

[Maximus_Meridius101]

spikeyhead said:

More progress, daily jabs

First, second total
139,445 499,635 639,080

62.4% first, 18.9% second

Good stuff. That’s at or above the level believed to be required for the theoretical ‘herd immunity’ to kick in.

[ukwill]

1st jab yesterday at Epsom Downs. Very smooth, zero issues. Myself and the Mrs done together.

Played golf this morning. Feel a bit like I’ve got a slight cold but it’s really nothing. Covid last March was a lot worse!

Glad to get pinned. Still in awe we have several vaccines one year later.

[spikeyhead]

Maximus_Meridius101 said:

spikeyhead said:

More progress, daily jabs

First, second total
139,445 499,635 639,080

62.4% first, 18.9% second

Good stuff. That’s at or above the level believed to be required for the theoretical ‘herd immunity’ to kick in.

Really? Do you have a source for that?

From my simple sums, if unconstrained R = 3, then with a 100% efficacious vaccine, and 15% of the unvaccinated having immunity from previous infections then we're just about there, albeit we need to wait three weeks for the vaccine effect to kick in.

[Maximus_Meridius101]

spikeyhead said:

Really? Do you have a source for that?

From my simple sums, if unconstrained R = 3, then with a 100% efficacious vaccine, and 15% of the unvaccinated having immunity from previous infections then we're just about there, albeit we need to wait three weeks for the vaccine effect to kick in.

Interviews with people from P.H.E. were the source for my numbers, I hope they’re right, and I hope the vaccines work. I’ve had my first dose today ( OAZ ) now we wait. My vaccinator was one of the G.Ps from the medical centre. I think they’ve revised their thinking to take the Kent variant’s effects into account, and the magic number is closer to 70 percent now.

Edited by Maximus_Meridius101 on Sunday 18th April 17:15