How many have been vaccinated so far?
Discussion
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
I had my first jab a while back, my second one is scheduled for July 4th ( U.S. Independence Day ironically). I’m in no rush to bring it forward. If the scientists think we need to, they’ve screwed up, and are in headless chicken mode ( again ).
I didn’t do it for scientific reasons I did it because I fancy going to Iceland on my days off in August! dmahon said:
Northernboy said:
The thing is, I don’t believe you. Do you have any expertise in virology, immunology or statistics that mean that what you say should be viewed as gospel?
Where is this “believe me” coming from? What’s your insight, how can anyone know whether it’s uninformed speculation or not?
To put it simply, “believe me” implies actual expertise, what is yours?
I have zero expertise in virology and immunology and quite a lot in statistics fwiw but I’m not sure how it’s relevant.Where is this “believe me” coming from? What’s your insight, how can anyone know whether it’s uninformed speculation or not?
To put it simply, “believe me” implies actual expertise, what is yours?
If you are:
- Young and at minimal risk from Covid
- Double vaccinated
- Travelling to a country with less incidence than us
- Live in the UK, a country where everyone vulnerable is vaxxed
- PCR tested 4 times as part of the travel
- Forced to quarantine
Almost anyone can see that is incredibly risk averse response with implications for millions of jobs, £multi billion industries, the wider economy, people’s mental health etc
Do you really disagree some of that could be relaxed if it meant saving a huge strategic industry and thousands of jobs?
If you think the above is a proportionate response purely because an expert in virology says so, I guess we agree to disagree. I personally see huge tradeoffs for extremely minimal risk, but I guess that’s where I differ from many people in this debate since day one.
Edited by dmahon on Friday 18th June 04:56
Does he need to be an expert in virology or similar to conclude on the risks from the above?
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
djc206 said:
And if absolutely necessary those identified as extremely vulnerable being paid and supported in every way necessary to shield.
If the vaccines were doing the job the experts hoped they would, there would be no need to.oyster said:
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
djc206 said:
And if absolutely necessary those identified as extremely vulnerable being paid and supported in every way necessary to shield.
If the vaccines were doing the job the experts hoped they would, there would be no need to.Northernboy said:
isaldiri said:
Until winter when prior vaccine sterilising immunity starts to fade. cases start going up again.
Why would they? Booster shots will be scheduled to happen before immunity drops.Do you have any evidence to suggest that vaccine effectiveness is lost after only twelve months, or is that supposition?
And I ssid 'sterilising immunity starts to fade'. That is not the same as you saying I am suggesting vaccine effectiveness is lost.
isaldiri said:
What booster jabs for the entire adult population again every year forever then?
And I ssid 'sterilising immunity starts to fade'. That is not the same as you saying I am suggesting vaccine effectiveness is lost.
Yes, annual booster shots like annual flu shots. Probably given at the same time.And I ssid 'sterilising immunity starts to fade'. That is not the same as you saying I am suggesting vaccine effectiveness is lost.
And what is your evidence for sterilising immunity starting to fade? Do you have any, or is it supposition?
Northernboy said:
isaldiri said:
What booster jabs for the entire adult population again every year forever then?
And I ssid 'sterilising immunity starts to fade'. That is not the same as you saying I am suggesting vaccine effectiveness is lost.
Yes, annual booster shots like annual flu shots. Probably given at the same time.And I ssid 'sterilising immunity starts to fade'. That is not the same as you saying I am suggesting vaccine effectiveness is lost.
And what is your evidence for sterilising immunity starting to fade? Do you have any, or is it supposition?
Look at what happens to hcov infection cycles. Or perhaps have some interest in the matter and go and look at what some of the virologists like Drosten or Racaniello are/have been saying. There is basically nothing at all that suggests the already not particularly high levels of sterilising immunity shown within 3-6 months of vaccination are likely to last. Human immune response to sars-cov2 is pretty clearly not like something like measles and unsurprisingly like other human coronaviruses.
isaldiri said:
Requiring the entire adult population to repeatedly vax up every year just to prevent infections whether or not otherwise required for protective immunity is an utterly daft idea.
Look at what happens to hcov infection cycles. Or perhaps have some interest in the matter and go and look at what some of the virologists like Drosten or Racaniello are/have been saying. There is basically nothing at all that suggests the already not particularly high levels of sterilising immunity shown within 3-6 months of vaccination are likely to last. Human immune response to sars-cov2 is pretty clearly not like something like measles and unsurprisingly like other human coronaviruses.
So that’s a no then, you don’t actually have any evidence.Look at what happens to hcov infection cycles. Or perhaps have some interest in the matter and go and look at what some of the virologists like Drosten or Racaniello are/have been saying. There is basically nothing at all that suggests the already not particularly high levels of sterilising immunity shown within 3-6 months of vaccination are likely to last. Human immune response to sars-cov2 is pretty clearly not like something like measles and unsurprisingly like other human coronaviruses.
Why is an annual booster shot an issue? You’re facing thousands of novel pathogens every day of your life, why do you have such a concern about this particular one?
Northernboy said:
isaldiri said:
Requiring the entire adult population to repeatedly vax up every year just to prevent infections whether or not otherwise required for protective immunity is an utterly daft idea.
Look at what happens to hcov infection cycles. Or perhaps have some interest in the matter and go and look at what some of the virologists like Drosten or Racaniello are/have been saying. There is basically nothing at all that suggests the already not particularly high levels of sterilising immunity shown within 3-6 months of vaccination are likely to last. Human immune response to sars-cov2 is pretty clearly not like something like measles and unsurprisingly like other human coronaviruses.
So that’s a no then, you don’t actually have any evidence.Look at what happens to hcov infection cycles. Or perhaps have some interest in the matter and go and look at what some of the virologists like Drosten or Racaniello are/have been saying. There is basically nothing at all that suggests the already not particularly high levels of sterilising immunity shown within 3-6 months of vaccination are likely to last. Human immune response to sars-cov2 is pretty clearly not like something like measles and unsurprisingly like other human coronaviruses.
Why is an annual booster shot an issue? You’re facing thousands of novel pathogens every day of your life, why do you have such a concern about this particular one?
We have gone from saving the NHS, flattening the curve and protecting the most vulnerable to protecting the people at less risk, to now basically 0 covid deaths strategy. You even support keeping restrictions and jabbing kids, where it's less than 50 deaths total from memory. Which would be fine if it wasn't affecting the queue for people who need treatment for other stuff like cancer, if it wasn't using vaccines that could save far more lives elsewhere in the world etc etc. Not to mention the social impacts.
Northernboy said:
isaldiri said:
Requiring the entire adult population to repeatedly vax up every year just to prevent infections whether or not otherwise required for protective immunity is an utterly daft idea.
Look at what happens to hcov infection cycles. Or perhaps have some interest in the matter and go and look at what some of the virologists like Drosten or Racaniello are/have been saying. There is basically nothing at all that suggests the already not particularly high levels of sterilising immunity shown within 3-6 months of vaccination are likely to last. Human immune response to sars-cov2 is pretty clearly not like something like measles and unsurprisingly like other human coronaviruses.
So that’s a no then, you don’t actually have any evidence.Look at what happens to hcov infection cycles. Or perhaps have some interest in the matter and go and look at what some of the virologists like Drosten or Racaniello are/have been saying. There is basically nothing at all that suggests the already not particularly high levels of sterilising immunity shown within 3-6 months of vaccination are likely to last. Human immune response to sars-cov2 is pretty clearly not like something like measles and unsurprisingly like other human coronaviruses.
Why is an annual booster shot an issue? You’re facing thousands of novel pathogens every day of your life, why do you have such a concern about this particular one?
And if you might have noticed, the point was that I don't have 'such a concern about this one'. That's why like for the er.. 200-ish other respiratory viruses humans get in circulation around the planet I don't see a particularly good reason to require every other adult person to jab up to attempt to reduce infections permanently. Offer those who need it the booster jab for sure or those who are desperate to take it again if they want. Compel every adult to continually rejab just to attempt to keep on reducing infections forever as you are suggesting - er.. well you're the one that is having 'such a concern about this particular one' not me.
isaldiri said:
Well as I said, feel free to do your own research.
That’s really not how it works champ. You made a positive claim, or rather you made up a positive claim, you don’t get to tell others to do research to back up something that you pulled out of your backside.It’s really a dishonest way to operate. But if that’s how you want to do it, well, you do you.
Northernboy said:
isaldiri said:
Well as I said, feel free to do your own research.
That’s really not how it works champ. You made a positive claim, or rather you made up a positive claim, you don’t get to tell others to do research to back up something that you pulled out of your backside.It’s really a dishonest way to operate. But if that’s how you want to do it, well, you do you.
I have as reqursted pointed you to what lead me to draw the (entirely reasonable imo) conclusion that long term sterilising immunity is very unlikely to exist for covid. I await with bated breath something from you suggesting I am incorrect.
Edited by isaldiri on Friday 18th June 23:44
Northernboy said:
If I were arguing in favour of continuing the lockdown then possibly, yes.
I’m not though, so I’m really not sure what point you are trying to make.
Sorry, must have got mixed up. I’m not though, so I’m really not sure what point you are trying to make.
Matty3 said:
Serious Question?
If I dont have the 'jab' how am risking others? Apart from taking NHS space - which there is plenty at the mo.
Infecting others. It does seem from the behaviour so far most vaccinated people are completely forgetting they can also spread it too though, so I wouldn't be surprised given the numbers vaccinated and likely behaviors if there will be more spread from vaccinated people now. Certainly the oldies near me have been going around like normal, and not thinking about the risk of them infecting young people. If I dont have the 'jab' how am risking others? Apart from taking NHS space - which there is plenty at the mo.
Northernboy said:
isaldiri said:
Well as I said, feel free to do your own research.
That’s really not how it works champ. You made a positive claim, or rather you made up a positive claim, you don’t get to tell others to do research to back up something that you pulled out of your backside.It’s really a dishonest way to operate. But if that’s how you want to do it, well, you do you.
NRS said:
Kinda, but there is no evidence either way, and I don't think I have seen any studies predicting which way it will go either? Isaldri seems to be linking a likely response to other similar virus, which seems as good as any other prediction.
have to say I am a little surprised why that statement i made earlier seems quite as controversial to some.I don't believe I have come across a statement by any virologist or similar stating they are confident of long term sterilising immunity for covid. All the immune response studies I have read suggest very high levels of neutralising antibody titers tend to be required for sterilising immunity - that has repeatedly been shown to be waning over time before levelling off at a (considerably) lower level. None of the closely related betaconviruses humans get (oc43 or hku1) have anything like measles like infection immunity.
Am genuinely curious how or why the earlier poster seems to be so confident what I said was incorrect and would be very keen to see what has lead him to proclaim it's something I made up and/or pulled out from my behind as he posted - as I said am entirely happy to revise my opinion/statement if he can point me to strong evidence of long term sterilising immunity for covid from well...anyone.
It's possibly the "vaccines are only amazing" dogma I think. We're in a weird place where the anti-vax groups are arguing there is now enough protection from the vaccines on the vulnerable so there's no need to have more, and the pro-vaxxers seem to be arguing we can't trust the high level of vaccines and we need to jab even more and keep jabbing them into the future. It's all a bit odd and shows it's just about sides, nothing really to do with the evidence.
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