The Right Honourable Matt Hancock MP
Discussion
They’ve made a mess of this now.
It’s incredibly damaging to business.
Some business owners I know are already saying they probably won’t survive this new tier 4 lockdown and will have to stay closed and fold the business.
The situation with the nightingales is appalling!
The company I work spent a lot of time and effort in the supply and set up of these hospitals.
I find it very hard to believe they can’t staff them using military medics and doctors etc.
There shouldn’t be any covid patients in hospitals. Covid patients can’t have visitors anyway so moving them to a nightingale is the right thing to do.
However we can’t because they are bloody dismantling them !
They have allowed the hospitals to fill up with covid patients and put the service on red alert.
They have walked us straight into the whole country closing.
To still want schools open is just plain crazy. They will just have to sit the year again, it won’t do them any harm.
It’s actually quite shocking and unbelievable, but it’s happening.
Appalling handling at the moment, appalling.
It’s incredibly damaging to business.
Some business owners I know are already saying they probably won’t survive this new tier 4 lockdown and will have to stay closed and fold the business.
The situation with the nightingales is appalling!
The company I work spent a lot of time and effort in the supply and set up of these hospitals.
I find it very hard to believe they can’t staff them using military medics and doctors etc.
There shouldn’t be any covid patients in hospitals. Covid patients can’t have visitors anyway so moving them to a nightingale is the right thing to do.
However we can’t because they are bloody dismantling them !
They have allowed the hospitals to fill up with covid patients and put the service on red alert.
They have walked us straight into the whole country closing.
To still want schools open is just plain crazy. They will just have to sit the year again, it won’t do them any harm.
It’s actually quite shocking and unbelievable, but it’s happening.
Appalling handling at the moment, appalling.
abzmike said:
I see some hospitals are reporting shortages of oxygen again, just like in March. Pretty basic requirement for treating patients is have thought. Now I’m sorry, but shouldn’t they have made sure that didn’t happen again?
Do you have a source for that? If so, terrible management. PDP76 said:
The situation with the nightingales is appalling!
The company I work spent a lot of time and effort in the supply and set up of these hospitals.
I find it very hard to believe they can’t staff them using military medics and doctors etc.
The vast majority of military medics and nurses are reservists who have their primary post in the NHS. The company I work spent a lot of time and effort in the supply and set up of these hospitals.
I find it very hard to believe they can’t staff them using military medics and doctors etc.
SD.
ddom said:
Do you have a source for that? If so, terrible management.
Reported in several places in the last couple of days... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavi...Apparently they get round it by lowering the mix, kind of like diet oxygen. I’d prefer the full fat myself.
powerstroke said:
British management is legendary think BL ...
If the NHS so called mangers are just there to follow
government diktats and policy why not sack a few thousand they aren’t exactly doing very much if they
Can’t run individual hospitals and health authorities by making decisions ,
Maybe change the job titles to reflect this , make them Clarke’s and auditors ???
If only it was that simple.If the NHS so called mangers are just there to follow
government diktats and policy why not sack a few thousand they aren’t exactly doing very much if they
Can’t run individual hospitals and health authorities by making decisions ,
Maybe change the job titles to reflect this , make them Clarke’s and auditors ???
I worked as a police officer and had close friends who were in 'management' at HQ. The general consensus was that their job was to make the Home Office’s requirements work.
I was ‘attached’ to the function for a while, my specific role was to interpret new legislation, marry it up with the HO demands, euphemistically entitled Home Office Guidance, and come up with ways to comply. I started on small bits, did well, and so was presented with the big one, Blunkett’s opus of his Criminal Law Act. It rather oddly had little HO Guidance to go with it. A significant omission.
After a few days’ work I came to the conclusion that it was unworkable, yet it was new law, so we had to comply. Every draft idea I put to the departments affected – virtually all involved in criminal prosecutions – were rejected. I phoned other forces, even the Mets (a sign of desperation), but no one had a workable solution. It wasn’t that we didn’t have the money, it was that there were contradictory demands, dead ends, and nonsensical requirements. In desperation, I went to see one of the resident judges in my area. I’d asked for 20 mins, which gave him the option of not offering tea.
I'd sent a brief outline of my problems, and was surprised to find that I was in the ‘snug’ area of his offices, and tea came in about the same time as I did. I asked him what I should do.
‘Ignore it. It is unworkable. We [courts users] will reject it, and it will have to be replaced. Sugar?’
My tea was barely cold before ‘revisions’ were made.
This is, I am informed, not as unusual as one might think. Cabinet ministers who have no idea of procedures, processes, requirements and legislation, have a good idea, write a memo – in my case legislation – and pass it off to others to sort out. When it all goes wrong, the person has moved on, to be replaced by another idiot who gains praise for doing exactly the same.
No one challenged Blunkett as he did not like being corrected, so the civil servants gave him his head. The HoC couldn’t be bothered to go against the whip, and so it became law.
I spent a considerable amount of time on the report, took up the time of various heads of departments, studied processes and procedures that might be used, and came up with nothing. Reports were typed, sent off, returned, checked, resent with changes, returned, and so on and so it went on. The report was the worst the resident judge had seen in his time, and by a significant margin, and this from a judge who reportedly never criticised but advised. Lovely bloke. Health secretaries tell the NHS what to do, and a whole bureaucracy is required by the NHS to do the HS’s job for him or her.
If a lowly police officer can see the problems, impossibilities in fact, of new legislation, why can’t a Home Sec ask someone in the civil service? I've got no doubt that all the HSs are told what should be done, but they need to look good, and grab headlines. Talk to a headmaster on the subject and you need to keep sharp implements out of reach.
I was told to have a progress report ready in case the HMIC team asked about it, but they must have known what a crock it was because they didn’t ask me to attend. The progress report took a couple of days to write. Required but not needed. A waste in fact.
Claptonian said:
numtumfutunch said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
This is the unsayable truth. The reason that the NHS is ‘stretched to breaking point’ by the current Covid situation is 100% down to them. Not the Govt for being incompetent- though that’s not helping - not the public for being ‘selfish’ but the Them for f
king away a six month long window to properly prepare for the current situation
Exactly how could the NHS have prepared better?king away a six month long window to properly prepare for the current situation The point is that a difficult winter being incoming was known about for months and nothing seems to have been done to prepare for it. It is for the organisation and those who fund and run it to work out how to prepare. Have they increased capacity to deal with the extra numbers? Were the Nightingales fit for purpose?
It takes several YEARS to train them.
If you or anyone else has a solution to this problem, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear it. If you don't, then ...
ATG said:
Claptonian said:
numtumfutunch said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
This is the unsayable truth. The reason that the NHS is ‘stretched to breaking point’ by the current Covid situation is 100% down to them. Not the Govt for being incompetent- though that’s not helping - not the public for being ‘selfish’ but the Them for fking away a six month long window to properly prepare for the current situation
Exactly how could the NHS have prepared better?king away a six month long window to properly prepare for the current situation The point is that a difficult winter being incoming was known about for months and nothing seems to have been done to prepare for it. It is for the organisation and those who fund and run it to work out how to prepare. Have they increased capacity to deal with the extra numbers? Were the Nightingales fit for purpose?
It takes several YEARS to train them.
If you or anyone else has a solution to this problem, I'm sure we'd all be interested to hear it. If you don't, then ...
Here's a scoop for you. CCGs were stripped of most of their decision making powers in March and control over lots and lots of things was given to Public Health England.
PHE is essentially government. The CCGs and Hospital Trusts have tried to muddle through and offered mutual aid to each other whenever possible but their hands have been tied and they have been hamstrung.
PHE are widely regarded as being about as much use as tits on a fish. Still, that won't stop some of you blaming anyone but government.
As you were ...
Red 4 said:
The comments about the problems in the NHS being all of their own making and nothing to do with government shows how some people on here really do talk out of their arse.
Here's a scoop for you. CCGs were stripped of most of their decision making powers in March and control over lots and lots of things was given to Public Health England.
PHE is essentially government. The CCGs and Hospital Trusts have tried to muddle through and offered mutual aid to each other whenever possible but their hands have been tied and they have been hamstrung.
PHE are widely regarded as being about as much use as tits on a fish. Still, that won't stop some of you blaming anyone but government.
As you were ...
Indeed. Sadly every time there is a mention of the NHS on PH, there are those who come out and proclaim how badly it's run, while not accepting that has anything to do with the government at the time.Here's a scoop for you. CCGs were stripped of most of their decision making powers in March and control over lots and lots of things was given to Public Health England.
PHE is essentially government. The CCGs and Hospital Trusts have tried to muddle through and offered mutual aid to each other whenever possible but their hands have been tied and they have been hamstrung.
PHE are widely regarded as being about as much use as tits on a fish. Still, that won't stop some of you blaming anyone but government.
As you were ...
Having worked in it a long time, for sure there are issues but it is also true that - like the police in the interesting post above - the NHS is ultimately run by government, under the control of people who should consult far more than they do. Given Hancock's and Hunt's long standing interest in a good NHS (coughcough), it's not really a surprise the NHS has struggled to cope.
Flip Martian said:
Red 4 said:
The comments about the problems in the NHS being all of their own making and nothing to do with government shows how some people on here really do talk out of their arse.
Here's a scoop for you. CCGs were stripped of most of their decision making powers in March and control over lots and lots of things was given to Public Health England.
PHE is essentially government. The CCGs and Hospital Trusts have tried to muddle through and offered mutual aid to each other whenever possible but their hands have been tied and they have been hamstrung.
PHE are widely regarded as being about as much use as tits on a fish. Still, that won't stop some of you blaming anyone but government.
As you were ...
Indeed. Sadly every time there is a mention of the NHS on PH, there are those who come out and proclaim how badly it's run, while not accepting that has anything to do with the government at the time.Here's a scoop for you. CCGs were stripped of most of their decision making powers in March and control over lots and lots of things was given to Public Health England.
PHE is essentially government. The CCGs and Hospital Trusts have tried to muddle through and offered mutual aid to each other whenever possible but their hands have been tied and they have been hamstrung.
PHE are widely regarded as being about as much use as tits on a fish. Still, that won't stop some of you blaming anyone but government.
As you were ...
Having worked in it a long time, for sure there are issues but it is also true that - like the police in the interesting post above - the NHS is ultimately run by government, under the control of people who should consult far more than they do. Given Hancock's and Hunt's long standing interest in a good NHS (coughcough), it's not really a surprise the NHS has struggled to cope.
That just would not work because local issues are just that - local.
It's been the same throughout the pandemic. What may work locally for individual Trusts has not been allowed because we are in a national emergency and decision making is centralised.
Some people don't want to hear that though.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My Father in Law gave up his ability to practice (or whatever it is called) 3 years ago - mainly because at the age of 83 he couldn’t be arsed to keep up with the training and exams any more. He was “reactivated” at the start of the “crisis”. Phoned several times trying to find out what he could do, they never returned the calls. As to the separation of “NHS” and “government”, I don’t see it. They’re both useless.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You mean, could train fighter pilots 100 years ago? Now you couldn’t do it for the same reason yet takes years of training to work in a hospital. Yes, you could cut some of it and train to health care assistant level but in specialised areas, but it is still going to take a long time from knowing nothing to working independently in any useful way. But that takes time. Time to develop the training, recruit the trainees, the do the training. Time that simply is not available at the moment.abzmike said:
ddom said:
Do you have a source for that? If so, terrible management.
Reported in several places in the last couple of days... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavi...Apparently they get round it by lowering the mix, kind of like diet oxygen. I’d prefer the full fat myself.
shed driver said:
I've worked in frontline healthcare in the NHS for over 35 years, I've seen many, many health secretaries come and go in that time. The last substantial change that had a positive effect for patients was the abolition of the 12 (and then the 4) hour waits in A&E. Up until that time, patients waited in A&E for many, many hours. It was thought that the reduction in waiting times would be unachievable, but new systems were put in place and it did work (mostly).
Since then it's been tinkering around the edges. The pandemic has forced us all into new ways of working - which has impacted greatly on all aspects of giving care. One change has been the banning of visitors from the wards to reduce the spread of infection. At first glance it's a simple exercise. Sadly it also means that relatives are phoning the wards almost constantly asking for updates, this takes staff away from direct care. (And Tik Tok - grr. )
There are no extra staff - training took a massive hit a few years ago when bursaries were cut and student nurses had to take out loans to fund their degree. That's been rescinded now, but there's a noticeable dip in numbers of newly qualified staff. With Brexit and some of the toxicity surrounding that argument a lot of nurses from the EU have left, just at the time numbers were on a downward trend. Add in the demographic time bomb of senior nurses in their mid fifties able to take retirement with a full pension and it is a staffing crisis.
This crisis will extend to the Nightingale Hospitals. It's been put forward that they could be staffed by the military - many of whom are reservists with full time NHS jobs, so it's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Staffing was getting better, it took a few small hits which have been cumulative. Add in the fact that hospital staff get sick too - by the very nature of their role they are going to be exposed very closely to infectious diseases and will become ill from them.
I don't think that any health secretary could have done much better in the face of a global pandemic. Staffing was in his remit though and since there is at least a 3 year lag in training to qualification we should be looking backwards at Hunt and seeing what decisions were made that have now come back to haunt us.
SD.
Great post. Since then it's been tinkering around the edges. The pandemic has forced us all into new ways of working - which has impacted greatly on all aspects of giving care. One change has been the banning of visitors from the wards to reduce the spread of infection. At first glance it's a simple exercise. Sadly it also means that relatives are phoning the wards almost constantly asking for updates, this takes staff away from direct care. (And Tik Tok - grr. )
There are no extra staff - training took a massive hit a few years ago when bursaries were cut and student nurses had to take out loans to fund their degree. That's been rescinded now, but there's a noticeable dip in numbers of newly qualified staff. With Brexit and some of the toxicity surrounding that argument a lot of nurses from the EU have left, just at the time numbers were on a downward trend. Add in the demographic time bomb of senior nurses in their mid fifties able to take retirement with a full pension and it is a staffing crisis.
This crisis will extend to the Nightingale Hospitals. It's been put forward that they could be staffed by the military - many of whom are reservists with full time NHS jobs, so it's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Staffing was getting better, it took a few small hits which have been cumulative. Add in the fact that hospital staff get sick too - by the very nature of their role they are going to be exposed very closely to infectious diseases and will become ill from them.
I don't think that any health secretary could have done much better in the face of a global pandemic. Staffing was in his remit though and since there is at least a 3 year lag in training to qualification we should be looking backwards at Hunt and seeing what decisions were made that have now come back to haunt us.
SD.
rxe said:
Ok, here’s an idea. You know how a lot of people in these forums have been saying “winter might be a problem” - mainly because it usually is. Given that we are pretty unqualified in the main, you would have thought that proper NHS managers might have thought of this.
So, the the world where I am in charge, at the beginning of last Uni term, the training for every student nurse and doctor would be tweaked so that the bits on “how to monitor and keep a Covid patient alive” would be prioritised. Nothing added, just reordered. Easy.
Roll on 4 months where we are allegedly facing a crisis, yet they are closing the Nightingales for lack of staff. Right, time to draft the students. Clearly they’d be supervised by proper doctors, but those doctors could look after huge numbers of patients with an army of qualified helpers.
Instead what they have actually done on staffing is, er, nothing.
Student nurses already work on wards during their training, medical students have been recruited as health care assistants in some areas.So, the the world where I am in charge, at the beginning of last Uni term, the training for every student nurse and doctor would be tweaked so that the bits on “how to monitor and keep a Covid patient alive” would be prioritised. Nothing added, just reordered. Easy.
Roll on 4 months where we are allegedly facing a crisis, yet they are closing the Nightingales for lack of staff. Right, time to draft the students. Clearly they’d be supervised by proper doctors, but those doctors could look after huge numbers of patients with an army of qualified helpers.
Instead what they have actually done on staffing is, er, nothing.
Supporting trainees in a high pressure environment usually takes qualified staff time rather than freeing anyone up to do something else. So really this is not as helpful as jt sounds on the surface
I dont think anyone is very surprised about the lack of ability to staff the nightingales - i suspect they were only put together when the media was reporting how clever the chinese were for building a new hospital in a week. Back in march the govts only action was to tell everyone to stay home and essentially hope for the best. Building the nightingales was a visible sign that they were doing something - more of a morale booster than a functional clinical facility. Staffing was already a problem before covid. Lots of the military medics/nurses are reservists and so are not really an option for nightingales as they already have an nhs job
Fundamentally, public health is in the hands of the public. Everyone was told from the outset that this winter would be bleak and yet the public thronged at every opportunity to spread the virus, not maintaining distance, or hand hygiene. Whilst there have been some issues at govt level, really the power to change this lies with the general public
sawman said:
rxe said:
So, the the world where I am in charge, at the beginning of last Uni term, the training for every student nurse and doctor would be tweaked so that the bits on “how to monitor and keep a Covid patient alive” would be prioritised. Nothing added, just reordered. Easy.
Student nurses already work on wards during their training, medical students have been recruited as health care assistants in some areas.https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/11/postg...
This is the problem. Lots of people making pronouncements on things they have no knowledge of. The same is happening in the schools thread. Lots of interesting information from teachers, both front line and senior management, but also lots of know nothings who think that they, from a few headlines, have managed to fined the simple answers that professionals with many years experience have totally missed.
sawman said:
shed driver said:
I've worked in frontline healthcare in the NHS for over 35 years, I've seen many, many health secretaries come and go in that time. The last substantial change that had a positive effect for patients was the abolition of the 12 (and then the 4) hour waits in A&E. Up until that time, patients waited in A&E for many, many hours. It was thought that the reduction in waiting times would be unachievable, but new systems were put in place and it did work (mostly).
Since then it's been tinkering around the edges. The pandemic has forced us all into new ways of working - which has impacted greatly on all aspects of giving care. One change has been the banning of visitors from the wards to reduce the spread of infection. At first glance it's a simple exercise. Sadly it also means that relatives are phoning the wards almost constantly asking for updates, this takes staff away from direct care. (And Tik Tok - grr. )
There are no extra staff - training took a massive hit a few years ago when bursaries were cut and student nurses had to take out loans to fund their degree. That's been rescinded now, but there's a noticeable dip in numbers of newly qualified staff. With Brexit and some of the toxicity surrounding that argument a lot of nurses from the EU have left, just at the time numbers were on a downward trend. Add in the demographic time bomb of senior nurses in their mid fifties able to take retirement with a full pension and it is a staffing crisis.
This crisis will extend to the Nightingale Hospitals. It's been put forward that they could be staffed by the military - many of whom are reservists with full time NHS jobs, so it's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Staffing was getting better, it took a few small hits which have been cumulative. Add in the fact that hospital staff get sick too - by the very nature of their role they are going to be exposed very closely to infectious diseases and will become ill from them.
I don't think that any health secretary could have done much better in the face of a global pandemic. Staffing was in his remit though and since there is at least a 3 year lag in training to qualification we should be looking backwards at Hunt and seeing what decisions were made that have now come back to haunt us.
SD.
Great post. Since then it's been tinkering around the edges. The pandemic has forced us all into new ways of working - which has impacted greatly on all aspects of giving care. One change has been the banning of visitors from the wards to reduce the spread of infection. At first glance it's a simple exercise. Sadly it also means that relatives are phoning the wards almost constantly asking for updates, this takes staff away from direct care. (And Tik Tok - grr. )
There are no extra staff - training took a massive hit a few years ago when bursaries were cut and student nurses had to take out loans to fund their degree. That's been rescinded now, but there's a noticeable dip in numbers of newly qualified staff. With Brexit and some of the toxicity surrounding that argument a lot of nurses from the EU have left, just at the time numbers were on a downward trend. Add in the demographic time bomb of senior nurses in their mid fifties able to take retirement with a full pension and it is a staffing crisis.
This crisis will extend to the Nightingale Hospitals. It's been put forward that they could be staffed by the military - many of whom are reservists with full time NHS jobs, so it's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Staffing was getting better, it took a few small hits which have been cumulative. Add in the fact that hospital staff get sick too - by the very nature of their role they are going to be exposed very closely to infectious diseases and will become ill from them.
I don't think that any health secretary could have done much better in the face of a global pandemic. Staffing was in his remit though and since there is at least a 3 year lag in training to qualification we should be looking backwards at Hunt and seeing what decisions were made that have now come back to haunt us.
SD.
Why you'd even ask 18 year old people wanting to go into these professions to pay just like all other students is quite frankly ridiculous when there was already a massive shortage. The amount of time/money/effort wasted in getting "bank" and "temporary" staff and paying vast amounts of money for the privilege to private companies must dwarf many times the cost of actually training someone.
Electro1980 said:
Lots of student doctors volunteered to work in hospitals, given roles depending on where they were in their training.
https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/11/postg...
This is the problem. Lots of people making pronouncements on things they have no knowledge of. The same is happening in the schools thread. Lots of interesting information from teachers, both front line and senior management, but also lots of know nothings who think that they, from a few headlines, have managed to fined the simple answers that professionals with many years experience have totally missed.
Good link, hadn’t seen that paper. https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/11/postg...
This is the problem. Lots of people making pronouncements on things they have no knowledge of. The same is happening in the schools thread. Lots of interesting information from teachers, both front line and senior management, but also lots of know nothings who think that they, from a few headlines, have managed to fined the simple answers that professionals with many years experience have totally missed.
My eldest is a med student, she has volunteered to help where she can, but so far hasnt been called- the teaching hosp is using local students first and we are 250 miles away
AngryYorkshireman said:
Agree. The training of enough medical staff has been a constant problem which political parties of all colours have failed to deal with successfully over the last 10-20 years. Our main strategy seems have been constantly poach ready made doctors and nurses from the 2nd/3rd world instead of doing it ourselves
If only it were only medical sciences. For some reason British companies are terrible at growing skills and training people. Companies complain about the lack of engineers and developers but try finding a job anywhere apart from hyper competitive graduate schemes at a big name multinational that does not require specific skills and experience that could only be got through employment. We (as a nation) seem to think that it is someone else’s problem to train and educate people with the skills we need.The same goes for training staff on an ongoing basis. Professional development gets cut and cut and tied to more unreasonable terms, with long learning contracts and minimal in work support, either through explicit policy or simply by workloads not allowing. Companies see training of anything other than the immediate task to be at best benefit purely to the member of staff or at worst an actively bad thing as they fear staff will simply get training and leave. IMO this is part of the productivity issue in the U.K. there are many other parts but this is one of them.
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