Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 10

[NoddyonNitrous]

Where are the SNP in along process of appointing candidates for May? I would not be surprised if potential candidates look at the ongoing st-storm and question whether they really want to put themselves in the focus of that. At the last SG election, the SNP were unable to find anybody willing to stand as candidate for the Roxburgh & Berwickshire constituency, and eventually leaned very heavily on Salmond's sister to let her name be put forward. (She told me this herself, so I do not doubt it).

[hiccy18]

Lim said:

We need opposition primary based in Scotland or the whole thing needs ditching. Nothing else will make a dent. Nobody in the Scottish tories has a seat at the table, not even the union committee.

ISP had a recent fundraiser that flopped. SNP vote intention remains high. I agree indy is dead without sturgeon, as faction war will break out without her grip. But SNP will have a near majority until a Scotland based party emerges, of whatever stripe. Or devo somehow collapses?

I agree, and have said previously, a slightly left of centre pro-devolution "Scottish" party not slavishly tied to mandates from leadership in Westminster would do well in Scotland, and seems to be required to fully oppose the SNP, which is a sad reflection of the insular standpoint of many Scots: how can we consider union with Europe when we can't look further south than Gretna?

I believe we require a new regime in Scotland, but not simply a new government: changes to distance the workings of the law from the state and to increase the accountability and oversight of government must be implemented if we're to avoid the horrors we're currently witnessing happening again, even if those changes are only minor. I'm not sure if this is something that can be considered and achieved in Scotland or if it should require Wesminster and the Lords involvement and have repurcussions to the other nations, but state persecution of a political opponent by a parliament in Britain should be a concern for all members of the union.

Edited by hiccy18 on Monday 1st March 09:25

[TheJimi]

Lim said:

We need opposition primary based in Scotland or the whole thing needs ditching. Nothing else will make a dent. Nobody in the Scottish tories has a seat at the table, not even the union committee.

ISP had a recent fundraiser that flopped. SNP vote intention remains high. I agree indy is dead without sturgeon, as faction war will break out without her grip. But SNP will have a near majority until a Scotland based party emerges, of whatever stripe. Or devo somehow collapses?

Agree on all points there.

A viable Scottish opposition is desperately needed.

[is-uk]

It looks like the Committee is going to take up Salmond's suggestion that they request all of the information his lawyers have in relation to text messages, emails, OneNote messages etc which he claims prove there was a conspiracy to imprison him.

https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/13659760001279...

[ant1973]

is-uk said:

It looks like the Committee is going to take up Salmond's suggestion that they request all of the information his lawyers have in relation to text messages, emails, OneNote messages etc which he claims prove there was a conspiracy to imprison him.

https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/13659760001279...

I think the point to keep in mind is that Salmond has those messages.

If they are not released, they will inevitably be leaked.

And that's where the fun and games begins.

[Pastor Of Muppets]

is-uk said:

It looks like the Committee is going to take up Salmond's suggestion that they request all of the information his lawyers have in relation to text messages, emails, OneNote messages etc which he claims prove there was a conspiracy to imprison him.

https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/13659760001279...

Oh dear, lets hope the truth will out because the future well being of Scotland has never been so
perilously close to disaster.

[Pastor Of Muppets]

Another Effie blog telling it exactly how it is and why Scotlands number one priority must be to eradicate
Sturgeon from her dictatorship.........

https://www.effiedeans.com/2021/03/the-task-is-to-...

[biggbn]

I must admit I have been reframing my thoughts of late, and although I have mentioned a broad support for further devolution, I am now more swayed towards this than a full and potentially divisive independence. At the moment the choice is a Shakespearean one of to be or not to be, whereas the answer could be kinda. Kinda to be, kinda not to be.

We have devolved powers, including ones we don't use to their full extent, including changing income tax, is this correct? Could a more federal approach work rather than the schism of full independence, Scotland being weaned off the teat of the Union and being accountable for its budgetary excesses whilst still contributing to the aforementioned Union. The Scottish 'identity' is strong enough to flourish as part of the Union, it is a recognisable 'brand' the world over, and my wish for a more inclusive, better educated, more caring society could be reached under this kind of arrangement quicker and easier than through separation.

So, why the evolution of thought other than because that's what thought does? My fear is that the kind of indepence I wish for can never be reached in reality because the divisiveness and rancour it would cause because of the inevitable campaigns by Nationalists and Unionists alike would fan the flames of division and propagate a them and us feeling that would take generations to get over. I see no them and us with any other people across the world, we are all 'us' and co-habiiting and living together peacefully is my ultimate aim, and the way the nationalist and Unionist movements are going would ensure that any split would preclude this from happening for a long time. I do believe that Scotland is historically, currently and even geographically more inclined to a modern socialist, greener governance as practiced in many countries, and we don't need to be fully independent to realise that, we just need to stop voting for self serving morons who only seem to seek personal agendas.

So, yes, a party that campaigned for further devolved powers and laid out a plan for less financial dependence on the Union, outlined ways to invest further in education and health and renewable energy whilst guiding us away from the finite resource of oil would definitely grab my attention. Sadly, I can see no such party. Perhaps I will start an 'Almost independent party', and use the tagline 'you know it makes sense'

[anonymous-user]

ant1973 said:

I think the point to keep in mind is that Salmond has those messages.

If they are not released, they will inevitably be leaked.

And that's where the fun and games begins.

Do communications with the committee attract similar immunity as with court proceedings?

[ettore]

biggbn said:

I must admit I have been reframing my thoughts of late, and although I have mentioned a broad support for further devolution, I am now more swayed towards this than a full and potentially divisive independence. At the moment the choice is a Shakespearean one of to be or not to be, whereas the answer could be kinda. Kinda to be, kinda not to be.

We have devolved powers, including ones we don't use to their full extent, including changing income tax, is this correct? Could a more federal approach work rather than the schism of full independence, Scotland being weaned off the teat of the Union and being accountable for its budgetary excesses whilst still contributing to the aforementioned Union. The Scottish 'identity' is strong enough to flourish as part of the Union, it is a recognisable 'brand' the world over, and my wish for a more inclusive, better educated, more caring society could be reached under this kind of arrangement quicker and easier than through separation.

So, why the evolution of thought other than because that's what thought does? My fear is that the kind of indepence I wish for can never be reached in reality because the divisiveness and rancour it would cause because of the inevitable campaigns by Nationalists and Unionists alike would fan the flames of division and propagate a them and us feeling that would take generations to get over. I see no them and us with any other people across the world, we are all 'us' and co-habiiting and living together peacefully is my ultimate aim, and the way the nationalist and Unionist movements are going would ensure that any split would preclude this from happening for a long time. I do believe that Scotland is historically, currently and even geographically more inclined to a modern socialist, greener governance as practiced in many countries, and we don't need to be fully independent to realise that, we just need to stop voting for self serving morons who only seem to seek personal agendas.

So, yes, a party that campaigned for further devolved powers and laid out a plan for less financial dependence on the Union, outlined ways to invest further in education and health and renewable energy whilst guiding us away from the finite resource of oil would definitely grab my attention. Sadly, I can see no such party. Perhaps I will start an 'Almost independent party', and use the tagline 'you know it makes sense'

Interesting, and dispassionately, perhaps the best route forward. I suspect it should happen with a root and branch reform of the current governance system in Scotland though (as well as a higher form of budgetary accountability).

[irc]

hiccy18 said:

I don't agree with your assessments of Sarwar and Lennon: traditionally the muslim vote (at least in Glasgow) has gone to Labour but has been mostly lost to the SNP, Sarwar by virtue of birth will at least open doors (and the family name used to carry great weight in Pollokshields). Secondly he has the right message of inclusivity, of building bridges not division, which will appeal to the opponents of independence (not "Unionists"!) and encourage regional votes.

Lennon, on the other hand, is offputting for opponents of independence precisely because she has attempted to court the nationalist vote. I do not believe that disenchanted nationalists would vote for Lennon over Sturgeon, or ISP or similar.

Heard Sarwar on Radio Scotland today. Sounded intelligent, sharp, reasonable, and honest.

I think with more visibility Labour could stage s recovery. Suspect most votes would be returning from SNP

[Quisling]

ettore said:

biggbn said:

I must admit I have been reframing my thoughts of late, and although I have mentioned a broad support for further devolution, I am now more swayed towards this than a full and potentially divisive independence. At the moment the choice is a Shakespearean one of to be or not to be, whereas the answer could be kinda. Kinda to be, kinda not to be.

We have devolved powers, including ones we don't use to their full extent, including changing income tax, is this correct? Could a more federal approach work rather than the schism of full independence, Scotland being weaned off the teat of the Union and being accountable for its budgetary excesses whilst still contributing to the aforementioned Union. The Scottish 'identity' is strong enough to flourish as part of the Union, it is a recognisable 'brand' the world over, and my wish for a more inclusive, better educated, more caring society could be reached under this kind of arrangement quicker and easier than through separation.

So, why the evolution of thought other than because that's what thought does? My fear is that the kind of indepence I wish for can never be reached in reality because the divisiveness and rancour it would cause because of the inevitable campaigns by Nationalists and Unionists alike would fan the flames of division and propagate a them and us feeling that would take generations to get over. I see no them and us with any other people across the world, we are all 'us' and co-habiiting and living together peacefully is my ultimate aim, and the way the nationalist and Unionist movements are going would ensure that any split would preclude this from happening for a long time. I do believe that Scotland is historically, currently and even geographically more inclined to a modern socialist, greener governance as practiced in many countries, and we don't need to be fully independent to realise that, we just need to stop voting for self serving morons who only seem to seek personal agendas.

So, yes, a party that campaigned for further devolved powers and laid out a plan for less financial dependence on the Union, outlined ways to invest further in education and health and renewable energy whilst guiding us away from the finite resource of oil would definitely grab my attention. Sadly, I can see no such party. Perhaps I will start an 'Almost independent party', and use the tagline 'you know it makes sense'

Interesting, and dispassionately, perhaps the best route forward. I suspect it should happen with a root and branch reform of the current governance system in Scotland though (as well as a higher form of budgetary accountability).

Fully agree

I know the members of team facepaint like Deadslow like to paint ANYONE who dares to question the SNP as scotland hating unionists

but the truth is

I would happily vote for independence if it wasn't going to turn Scotland into a banana republic povertyfest with a side serving of civil war

And under the SNP i firmly believe that is what we would end up with


If a new party comes along with has a policy base which isn't entirely ENGLAND BAD and actually work to get scotland into a place where leaving the Uk isn't a massive risk and we can see clear benefits of having decisions made in holyrood then independence is a easy but completely un-neccesary step


now if the SNP are deliberately wrecking scotland or if it is sheer incompetence is a different question

[Drawweight]

biggbn said:

I must admit I have been reframing my thoughts of late, and although I have mentioned a broad support for further devolution, I am now more swayed towards this than a full and potentially divisive independence. At the moment the choice is a Shakespearean one of to be or not to be, whereas the answer could be kinda. Kinda to be, kinda not to be.

We have devolved powers, including ones we don't use to their full extent, including changing income tax, is this correct? Could a more federal approach work rather than the schism of full independence, Scotland being weaned off the teat of the Union and being accountable for its budgetary excesses whilst still contributing to the aforementioned Union. The Scottish 'identity' is strong enough to flourish as part of the Union, it is a recognisable 'brand' the world over, and my wish for a more inclusive, better educated, more caring society could be reached under this kind of arrangement quicker and easier than through separation.

So, why the evolution of thought other than because that's what thought does? My fear is that the kind of indepence I wish for can never be reached in reality because the divisiveness and rancour it would cause because of the inevitable campaigns by Nationalists and Unionists alike would fan the flames of division and propagate a them and us feeling that would take generations to get over. I see no them and us with any other people across the world, we are all 'us' and co-habiiting and living together peacefully is my ultimate aim, and the way the nationalist and Unionist movements are going would ensure that any split would preclude this from happening for a long time. I do believe that Scotland is historically, currently and even geographically more inclined to a modern socialist, greener governance as practiced in many countries, and we don't need to be fully independent to realise that, we just need to stop voting for self serving morons who only seem to seek personal agendas.

So, yes, a party that campaigned for further devolved powers and laid out a plan for less financial dependence on the Union, outlined ways to invest further in education and health and renewable energy whilst guiding us away from the finite resource of oil would definitely grab my attention. Sadly, I can see no such party. Perhaps I will start an 'Almost independent party', and use the tagline 'you know it makes sense'

I agree with all of that.

I'm Scottish and proud of it. I always think of myself as Scottish. The thought of describing myself as British is to be frank ludicrous.

I'd love a true independence but I haven't yet heard a credible case for it.

So in short I'm reasonably happy for now with the status quo but the big fly in the ointment is the lamentable performance of the SNP.

We could be so so much better even with the powers we have if there was an effective government and...an effective opposition.

Ironically its the pathetic showing by the SNP that is furthering the push for independence. While we are tied to the UK we have a figurehead to blame for all our woes.

[Wombat3]

No confidence motion in Swinney this afternoon if he won't publish the SG's legal advice re Salmond's judicial review.

It will need the Greens to break ranks & back it to succeed AIUI

[Leithen]

I'm apparently Scottish and British. British and Scottish.

I despise nationalism however.

I have Gaelic speaking Scottish ancestors. Scottish ancestors who came from England only a generation before. A South African Grandmother whose Grandfather came from Glasgow and Grandmother from London. An English mother, whose grandparents came from Wales and Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland bunch most likely came from Scotland originally.

I was born in Scotland, was educated in Scotland and England, have worked in Scotland and England and lived in both.

If I wanted to I could pick any of the above to hang my hat on. I could claim that my heart was anywhere.

But in reality my identity is what I do, how I behave and think, not some bloody stupid pigeonhole where I try to find a crowd of other people and succumb to the mass delusion that we are better than other people.

I want to live where my accent doesn't matter, where my considered political choices don't need to be hidden. I want to live with open minded, welcoming honest people, who understand that we are all the same. All human beings just wanting a fair crack of the whip and peace and security.

rant over. apologies.

[Quisling]

Wombat3 said:

No confidence motion in Swinney this afternoon if he won't publish the SG's legal advice re Salmond's judicial review.

It will need the Greens to break ranks & back it to succeed AIUI

I've heard that he is going to be appearing on celebratory mastermind

specialist subject = Bus running gear and chassis design

[biggbn]

Leithen said:

I'm apparently Scottish and British. British and Scottish.

I despise nationalism however.

I have Gaelic speaking Scottish ancestors. Scottish ancestors who came from England only a generation before. A South African Grandmother whose Grandfather came from Glasgow and Grandmother from London. An English mother, whose grandparents came from Wales and Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland bunch most likely came from Scotland originally.

I was born in Scotland, was educated in Scotland and England, have worked in Scotland and England and lived in both.

If I wanted to I could pick any of the above to hang my hat on. I could claim that my heart was anywhere.

But in reality my identity is what I do, how I behave and think, not some bloody stupid pigeonhole where I try to find a crowd of other people and succumb to the mass delusion that we are better than other people.

I want to live where my accent doesn't matter, where my considered political choices don't need to be hidden. I want to live with open minded, welcoming honest people, who understand that we are all the same. All human beings just wanting a fair crack of the whip and peace and security.

rant over. apologies.

You pretty much summarise my feelings, it's not where you are its who you are that is important...

[Jasey_]

As suspected the lieing hasn't turned up fron her daily broadcast.

Hopefully she's prepping her abdication speech.

[Quisling]

Jasey_ said:

As suspected the lieing hasn't turned up fron her daily broadcast.

Hopefully she's prepping her abdication speech.

More likely trying to get the yestapo to arrest some one, anyone that might let her stay in her throne

either that or seeing how much cash she can fritter away before being caught

[Dr Jekyll]

Jasey_ said:

As suspected the lieing hasn't turned up fron her daily broadcast.

Hopefully she's prepping her abdication speech.

I do imagine her office right now is some kind of cross between Blackadder the second and The Thick of it.