Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 10

[Gecko1978]

marcella said:

Thanks for those that replied to my previous post, glad I'm not alone.

One thing that bothers me is that people I know that are 'for' the SNP have just seen the recent scandal of NS as the tories trying to get her kicked out. I can't believe that they cannot see she's in the wrong and yesterdays trial was an embarrassment (and not just for NS).

The other thing that bothers me slightly is I keep hearing from the rest of the UK on why we are idiots for wanting independence but I haven't heard them actually saying why they want to keep us. It would be nice to hear a bit more from the English especially on why they want us to remain and not bashing us for always putting our hands out and taking all 'their' money.

Keep scotland...easy your part of the nation and make up its rich an diverse culture, you offer some great locations in the uk to explore tou have your own food an drink an a rich history that adds to the make up of the UK.

If you want economic reasons....I don't think there are many. But then I don't think there are economic ones for indy either so its about feeling.

Personally if Scotland left all I would hope is rUK made sure the economic impact to rUK was next to zero. Scotland could then make its own way in the world.

[gruffalo]

Monsterlime said:

This is largely the view my friends down south also have. Either, they don't care and have barely thought about it until I mention it, or are so sick of being blamed for all the ills of Scotland by the SNats that they would vote in favour of it.

This is pretty much where I am now.

I am half Scottish and I personally did two tours in Scotland in the 1980's when I was based at RAF Saxa Vord and Stornoway, loved the places and the people more but I have never lived there for longer than 3 years at a time.

I have been back to both several times over the years and it is lovely when I get there but if I stop on the way it is sometimes less pleasant, Scotland is the only place I have been abused for the way I speak being a southerner.

I am heading back up in the summer and I fear it will be the last time unless Scotland gets rid of the SNP and re-engages with the rest of the UK, otherwise if I had the vote it would be for Scotland to leave the union so they stop moaning about the English.

Very sad to feel this way but that is the way it is now, my mother who is the Scottish one will never return after the way my father was treated last time they were in Aberdeen, her home town, together.

Very sad times.

[TheJimi]

Evercross said:

Roderick Spode said:

WackyWeaver said:

Apparently SNP membership has increased by 5000 since yesterday.

'Apparently' indeed.

Indeed.

I did once suspect Lim of possibly being Ross Colquhoun ("Twitter is everything") but I have acquired a new-found respect for Lim because of his (some admittedly deleted) Damascene moments during the last few weeks while I have been observing from the sidelines (and he even said he missed me ).

So I now know for sure that Lim is too intelligent and could not be behind the most cack-handed attempts of recent days to get pro-Nicola hashtags trending. What with previously unheard-of alleged Scottish Government female employees all tweeting the precise-same wording regarding Alex Salmond's alleged behaviour, and now another bunch of zombie accounts all using exactly the same wording to declare how honourable Nicola is having known her since the age of 16.

Fake news SNP central, and it is so transparent it is tedious.

Edited by Evercross on Thursday 4th March 15:31

Where is Lim anyway? Conspicuous by absence.

[Roderick Spode]

WackyWeaver said:

Roderick Spode said:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-state-of-scotlan...

‘It has no source and no evidence – we can’t find a single official SNP representative making the claim anywhere – and appears to have simply been plucked from thin air by a clutch of highly questionable accounts’

No source except for Keith Brown, SNP campaign director and according to his Twitter it is indeed 5000, not 7000 (then again they could still be increasing).

I see one retweet from Keith Brown to said effect. Hardly a steadfast evidence trail. What's the background to it?

Don't forget, quote "retweets are not endorsements"...

[vulture1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56279525

Why isn't this being discussed here?

Getting out of the EU has allowed this tariff to be lifted. I 'd love to see Nippy explain that one away.

[Quisling]

vulture1 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56279525

Why isn't this being discussed here?

Getting out of the EU has allowed this tariff to be lifted. I 'd love to see Nippy explain that one away.

Many in team facepaint think that duty is paid to the country that is doing the exporting

So they claim that export duty is paid in england where the ship leaves from therefore this change in duty doesn't matter

No

They REALLY are that thick


I just wish i could find the tweet about capital flight where a NAT claimed that the english would not be allowed to steal edinburgh

[ScotHill]

Has any country/part of a country attained independence and had to set up all the infrastructure/systems/services that an Indy Scotland would have to set up? (which I think they quoted £200m and 18 months for)

[biggbn]

gruffalo said:

This is pretty much where I am now.

I am half Scottish and I personally did two tours in Scotland in the 1980's when I was based at RAF Saxa Vord and Stornoway, loved the places and the people more but I have never lived there for longer than 3 years at a time.

I have been back to both several times over the years and it is lovely when I get there but if I stop on the way it is sometimes less pleasant, Scotland is the only place I have been abused for the way I speak being a southerner.

I am heading back up in the summer and I fear it will be the last time unless Scotland gets rid of the SNP and re-engages with the rest of the UK, otherwise if I had the vote it would be for Scotland to leave the union so they stop moaning about the English.

Very sad to feel this way but that is the way it is now, my mother who is the Scottish one will never return after the way my father was treated last time they were in Aberdeen, her home town, together.

Very sad times.

I feel saddened that people have experienced this, I have never seen it at all, and my social group contains a diverse cross section of society. The onpy overt racism i have personally witnessed had been towards Polish friends sadly

[Roderick Spode]

vulture1 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56279525

Why isn't this being discussed here?

Getting out of the EU has allowed this tariff to be lifted. I 'd love to see Nippy explain that one away.

The nationalists won't be making a big noise about this because a) it's a Westminster / Toareees / bastirt English success story, and b) many of their number still believe the propaganda about whisky being taxed at the place of export, therefore not attributed to Scotland. They may make reference to it in some form, but probably only along the lines of "mair money for Westminster, it's ooor whisky", etc.

[biggbn]

vulture1 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56279525

Why isn't this being discussed here?

Getting out of the EU has allowed this tariff to be lifted. I 'd love to see Nippy explain that one away.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread

[Brave Fart]

marcella said:

<edit for brevity>
The other thing that bothers me slightly is I keep hearing from the rest of the UK on why we are idiots for wanting independence but I haven't heard them actually saying why they want to keep us. It would be nice to hear a bit more from the English especially on why they want us to remain and not bashing us for always putting our hands out and taking all 'their' money.

Hello marcella, English person here as you requested. I firmly believe in the union of our four nations and do not wish to see it broken up. Were that to happen, I fear there would be an economic disaster in Scotland which could lead to unrest and worse. I also think it would invigorate those who wish Ireland to be united. Not so sure about Wales.

There's one other reason. Democracy. Scotland had its "once in a generation" Indyref, and voted to preserve the union. That should be that for at least thirty years. Otherwise referendums mean nothing. I do not buy the "Brexit has changed everything" argument one bit; that was a possibility when the 2014 vote was taken, and anyway the 2016 vote was a UK vote which binds Scotland too.

Scotland had its say in 2014. Ask again in 2044. Until then, forget it.

[Lotobear]

biggbn said:

I feel saddened that people have experienced this, I have never seen it at all, and my social group contains a diverse cross section of society. The onpy overt racism i have personally witnessed had been towards Polish friends sadly

...probably because you're not English I would guess?

I have unfortunately experienced it on more a number of occassions and I'm only 10 miles south of the border so almost a Scot!, it's got much worse in the last 10-15 years and one of the worst areas seems to be along the border. My experience of Galloway is particularly bad (I had a very unpleasant experience in the 'Criffel' in New Abbey a few years back as soon as our group spoke and our origin was revealed), less so when you get into the highlands though or at least that's what I've found.

I used to love going to Scotland on holiday to but to be frank right now I wouldn't do it, thankfully I have the Lakes on the doorsteps and Northumberland even closer so I'll be biding this side for the foreseeable (which I very much regret)

[NRS]

marcella said:

I thought I would chime in on this thread as I've been lurking for some time.

I have never been into politics as I've always had the view that every party is as corrupt as the next so it would never make a difference who was running the show. This has been my reason for never voting.

I never voted during the last indyref (I'm Scottish btw) as I honestly did not know what would be for the best.

I am taking more notice of politics over the past year and was starting to be impressed by NS standing up everyday and addressing the country on Covid. I was happy with most of her decisions.

However over the past few months I have seen NS using her platform to try and upstage Boris (which doesn't seem hard imo) and also the controversy over the Salmond case.

I want to vote for the next indyref (if we get it) but I'm still unsure what I would vote for. This has been my issue in researching both sides of the arguments but it has left a bad taste in my mouth. Both sides bash each other and it's so difficult for me to see the unbiased views.

I like the idea of an independent Scotland, but I think we would cock it up and it's too big of a risk. I saw one post on here which seemed the most unbiased in that the ideal outcome would be we stay in the UK but have a lot more power than we do now. I also fear if we did get independence there would be a big divide in the country between the two sides which I think would only grow worse over time.

All the people around me are similar to me and are unsure, some just hate the tories and others are die hard Rangers fans. I get the impression most people that will vote will be clueless and going in with a one track mind. I honestly think the general public have no right to vote in something they know very little about but will have a very large outcome.

Sorry for the long post but hopefully some of you can give me your unbiased views and not give me a bashing for my lack of knowledge in this field, but I want to learn more.

It sounds like you need to think about what reasons you want independence for.

One of the big reasons pushed by SNP supporters is Westminister being corrupt. If you think they're all as bad as each other presumably this isn't a reason for you?

Another reason could be having more of a voice. Apparently Scotland doesn't get a voice and it's all England. However, look at when the Tories got into power, and compare that with Labour's performance in Scotland. One of the big ironies of the SNP's hatred of the Tories is that their rise has removed a huge number (relatively) of Labour MPs in Scotland. Scotland would often have had a deciding vote between Labour or Conservatives being in power for the UK if the SNP was either not around, or mature enough to for example create a coalition government to improve Scotland's voice. Instead they seem to have deliberately tried to vote against the stuff - see their original line of any deal being better than Brexit all the way through the negotiations, but in the end they voted against the deal (which would have resulted in a hard Brexit if they succeeded).

Another reason is if you view Scotland as being different from England in economic policies. If for example you want more socialist policies it could be a reason to go for independence. However, be very aware what you are voting for. The first is if you want to copy "us" here in Norway - it means a lot more tax. Are you willing to pay £10 a pint in the pub? Are you willing to pay £5 on toll roads going to work each day? Are you willing to pay for example £30 000 for the cheapest version of the new Golf with nothing specced, or £55k for the Golf R (again nothing specced)? That's what I pay. Socialism like Norway costs money, it's not just a case of others paying. Some will be happy to do that, but do you believe enough fellow Scots will - or will it just be a repeat of the UK parties but in Scotland? If it's the same as the UK parties with minor variations is that enough reason to vote for independence?

The SNP is made up of a lot of people with different aims, which will become apparent if independence happens. It'll be the same as Brexit - once it is triggered there will suddenly be huge questions on if it's a "hard" independence, or "soft". The reality is there will be a big variation in what people try to get applied. And many of the arguments used cannot be applied together. For example making a sovereign wealth fund from oil (again like Norway). However, that cannot work with the push for getting rid of oil and going into only renewables that for example some want during independence. It's either one or the other. Same goes for the economy - if Scotland does go heavily into renewables such as tidal and floating windfarms they are loss making currently. Therefore the argument about the economic benefits are not there - they will need to be subsidised. So if oil is cut and renewables developed it's not creating growth, it costs the country money. That may be perfectly fine and worth doing - but remember it is not an economic reason despite some arguing that now.

Another thing worth thinking about is the argument to vote SNP now, to get independence even if you hate them as you can vote something else once Scotland is independent. That will be the case, but it WILL be the SNP organising how Scotland leaves and setting up the main framework for the country. Do you think they will do a good job, given their blame of Westminister for everything so far? Do you think it will be a good leaving deal with sorted with good compromises? Or will they demand the world, and completely fk things up as they cannot compromise? An independence deal will always require a lot of compromise or it will be a no deal break. Same as happened in Brexit. The rest of the UK won't have any reason to give Scotland a good deal, so it will be a negotiation. I personally would worry the SNP would come away with no deal, and just blame Westminister for it all. It seems to be what they do now IMO.

A final thing - it's not just the current politicians you are comparing - as they will come and go. Nicola might be a lot better at speaking than Boris, but independence will be a lot longer. It could well be Scotland would get a Boris in the future, and England the opposite. (Also watch how Nicola does her "good leader" routine though. For example she did the health updates on Corona. Looks a great leader taking responsibility. But what happened with the drugs deaths announcement? She avoided that news and left it to others in her party to announce. IMO she picks and chooses very carefully what news she personally puts out. Good news typically comes from her, bad news gets put onto others. This makes her seem like a good strong leader, but in reality shows a character who avoids taking responsibility for all her decisions, and is focused on imagine. All of them do it, but she does it more than most from what I see.)

Think about what you want to see change in your life and society, and consider if Independence can give you it (remembering that for a number of things you cannot have all the benefits - one will often mean a negative thing elsewhere like the socialist system to look after poorer people meaning you do less fun stuff for example). Then consider if the cost and uncertainty of independence is worth those changes. If it is then go for independence. If it's not then vote against it.

Edited by NRS on Thursday 4th March 18:13

[Colonel Cupcake]

marcella said:

The other thing that bothers me slightly is I keep hearing from the rest of the UK on why we are idiots for wanting independence but I haven't heard them actually saying why they want to keep us. It would be nice to hear a bit more from the English especially on why they want us to remain and not bashing us for always putting our hands out and taking all 'their' money.

From my Englishmans point of view.

I have never set foot in Scotland. All I see of Scottish politicians are Ian Blackford, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon. All three seem to blame Scotlands woes on England. How true that is for the entire Scottish population, I do not know. I will just add here that after watching Mr Salmonds performance at that hearing last week and Ms Sturgeons yesterday, it seems to me that Ms Sturgeon is not fit to scrape the crap from beneath Mr Salmonds toenails.I know who I would buy a used car from.

I would want Scotland to remain part of the union. I know that they won't though.

I would hope that, after independence, Scotland would make a success of it. I don't think they will do, though. Ms Sturgeon just wants her place in the history books and doesn't seem to have any idea on how things will work, post independence. I think that she will mimic David Cameron after the Brexit referendum and just quickly melt away and leave someone else to mop up the inevitable mess.

Sadly, I think that mess will impact the ordinary Scot in the street and the ones at the top will just probably take the loot and move to Europe.

If that mess does come to pass, I would hope that any request to rejoin the union would be subject to a referendum to whatever is left of the UK and that devolution and the Scottish parliament is dissolved for good.

Edited by Colonel Cupcake on Thursday 4th March 19:42

[biggbn]

Lotobear said:

...probably because you're not English I would guess?

I have unfortunately experienced it on more a number of occassions and I'm only 10 miles south of the border so almost a Scot!, it's got much worse in the last 10-15 years and one of the worst areas seems to be along the border. My experience of Galloway is particularly bad (I had a very unpleasant experience in the 'Criffel' in New Abbey a few years back as soon as our group spoke and our origin was revealed), less so when you get into the highlands though or at least that's what I've found.

I used to love going to Scotland on holiday to but to be frank right now I wouldn't do it, thankfully I have the Lakes on the doorsteps and Northumberland even closer so I'll be biding this side for the foreseeable (which I very much regret)

...but several of my social circle are, which was my point. I do not doubt morons exist which is why I said I was saddened that it does. Racism exists in every country, sadly, I have witnessed it first hand, just not anglophobia. Have a great evening man.

Edit, don't be put off man, you will be missing a lot. Go do the NC500, the people on that route need tourists and in my experience are incredibly hospitable and welcoming. The Lake District, beautiful as it is, has nothing on Scotlands west coast. Come to Dundee, I'll stand you a pint and let you meet real, friendly people!!

Edited by biggbn on Thursday 4th March 19:00

[marcella]

NRS said:

marcella said:

I thought I would chime in on this thread as I've been lurking for some time.

I have never been into politics as I've always had the view that every party is as corrupt as the next so it would never make a difference who was running the show. This has been my reason for never voting.

I never voted during the last indyref (I'm Scottish btw) as I honestly did not know what would be for the best.

I am taking more notice of politics over the past year and was starting to be impressed by NS standing up everyday and addressing the country on Covid. I was happy with most of her decisions.

However over the past few months I have seen NS using her platform to try and upstage Boris (which doesn't seem hard imo) and also the controversy over the Salmond case.

I want to vote for the next indyref (if we get it) but I'm still unsure what I would vote for. This has been my issue in researching both sides of the arguments but it has left a bad taste in my mouth. Both sides bash each other and it's so difficult for me to see the unbiased views.

I like the idea of an independent Scotland, but I think we would cock it up and it's too big of a risk. I saw one post on here which seemed the most unbiased in that the ideal outcome would be we stay in the UK but have a lot more power than we do now. I also fear if we did get independence there would be a big divide in the country between the two sides which I think would only grow worse over time.

All the people around me are similar to me and are unsure, some just hate the tories and others are die hard Rangers fans. I get the impression most people that will vote will be clueless and going in with a one track mind. I honestly think the general public have no right to vote in something they know very little about but will have a very large outcome.

Sorry for the long post but hopefully some of you can give me your unbiased views and not give me a bashing for my lack of knowledge in this field, but I want to learn more.

It sounds like you need to think about what reasons you want independence for.

One of the big reasons pushed by SNP supporters is Westminister being corrupt. If you think they're all as bad as each other presumably this isn't a reason for you?

Another reason could be having more of a voice. Apparently Scotland doesn't get a voice and it's all England. However, look at when the Tories got into power, and compare that with Labour's performance in Scotland. One of the big ironies of the SNP's hatred of the Tories is that their rise has removed a huge number (relatively) of Labour MPs in Scotland. Scotland would often have had a deciding vote between Labour or Conservatives being in power for the UK if the SNP was either not around, or mature enough to for example create a coalition government to improve Scotland's voice. Instead they seem to have deliberately tried to vote against the stuff - see their original line of any deal being better than Brexit all the way through the negotiations, but in the end they voted against the deal (which would have resulted in a hard Brexit if they succeeded).

Another reason is if you view Scotland as being different from England in economic policies. If for example you want more socialist policies it could be a reason to go for independence. However, be very aware what you are voting for. The first is if you want to copy "us" here in Norway - it means a lot more tax. Are you willing to pay £10 a pint in the pub? Are you willing to pay £5 on toll roads going to work each day? Are you willing to pay for example £30 000 for the cheapest version of the new Golf with nothing specced, or £55k for the Golf R (again nothing specced)? That's what I pay. Socialism like Norway costs money, it's not just a case of others paying. Some will be happy to do that, but do you believe enough fellow Scots will - or will it just be a repeat of the UK parties but in Scotland? If it's the same as the UK parties with minor variations is that enough reason to vote for independence?

The SNP is made up of a lot of people with different aims, which will become apparent if independence happens. It'll be the same as Brexit - once it is triggered there will suddenly be huge questions on if it's a "hard" independence, or "soft". The reality is there will be a big variation in what people try to get applied. And many of the arguments used cannot be applied together. For example making a sovereign wealth fund from oil (again like Norway). However, that cannot work with the push for getting rid of oil and going into only renewables that for example some want during independence. It's either one or the other. Same goes for the economy - if Scotland does go heavily into renewables such as tidal and floating windfarms they are loss making currently. Therefore the argument about the economic benefits are not there - they will need to be subsidised. So if oil is cut and renewables developed it's not creating growth, it costs the country money. That may be perfectly fine and worth doing - but remember it is not an economic reason despite some arguing that now.

Another thing worth thinking about is the argument to vote SNP now, to get independence even if you hate them as you can vote something else once Scotland is independent. That will be the case, but it WILL be the SNP organising how Scotland leaves and setting up the main framework for the country. Do you think they will do a good job, given their blame of Westminister for everything so far? Do you think it will be a good leaving deal with sorted with good compromises? Or will they demand the world, and completely fk things up as they cannot compromise? An independence deal will always require a lot of compromise or it will be a no deal break. Same as happened in Brexit. The rest of the UK won't have any reason to give Scotland a good deal, so it will be a negotiation. I personally would worry the SNP would come away with no deal, and just blame Westminister for it all. It seems to be what they do now IMO.

A final thing - it's not just the current politicians you are comparing - as they will come and go. Nicola might be a lot better at speaking than Boris, but independence will be a lot longer. It could well be Scotland would get a Boris in the future, and England the opposite. (Also watch how Nicola does her "good leader" routine though. For example she did the health updates on Corona. Looks a great leader taking responsibility. But what happened with the drugs deaths announcement? She avoided that news and left it to others in her party to announce. IMO she picks and chooses very carefully what news she personally puts out. Good news typically comes from her, bad news gets put onto others. This makes her seem like a good strong leader, but in reality shows a character who avoids taking responsibility for all her decisions, and is focused on imagine. All of them do it, but she does it more than most from what I see.)

Think about what you want to see change in your life and society, and consider if Independence can give you it (remembering that for a number of things you cannot have all the benefits - one will often mean a negative thing elsewhere like the socialist system to look after poorer people meaning you do less fun stuff for example). Then consider if the cost and uncertainty of independence is worth those changes. If it is then go for independence. If it's not then vote against it.

Edited by NRS on Thursday 4th March 18:13

Thank you very much for your reply. You make some really good points that give me a lot to think about.

This seems a lot better way of deciding the fate of the country by having these discussions rather than all the typical bashing from either side that I continue to see on social media. There's obviously a lot more researching for me to do to come to my conclusion. I just hope my fellow Scots do the same and don't have tunnel vision like, unfortunately, the majority seem to have.

[steely dan]

I find the last few posts incredibly sad and somewhat distressing .
I left Scotland 25 years ago and have lived in England and Ireland since .
In that time I have never experienced any form of bigotry or hatred from anyone in those countries even as I travelled widely throughout each of them.
Growing up in Scotland there was always a "banter" where the Sasanachs ( English ) were spoken ill of but I never felt or witnessed it as an aggresive act of genuine hatred , and I grew up in a very working class area.
But now I feel very upset and even ashamed at the open venom shown by Scots to others.
I feel that the thrust for Independence is driven by hatred and bigotry rather than a desire to better the country as a whole .
I despair , I truly despair .

The poster from Norway above speaks such sense and echoes what I have said re the difference in cost of living here in Ireland .
My belief is that the Scottish public who slavishly follow the cry of "Freedom" expect, nay believe , the status quo will remain and that there will be a bumpless transfer from pre to post Independence .
It won't and not one politician seems to be honestly explaining the costs and consequences that await them in their brave new world .
I'm not sure whether I want to warn them or wish it upon them .

[amgmcqueen]

How would Scot's feel about one last referendum.

Independence and everything that entails.......vs ending devolution and blowing up the Scottish parliament?

[Janluke]

I've lived in Scotland since 2002 having moved from Cornwall. Apart from a little banter the only time I've had any real negativity was during the run up to the referendum being told I shouldn't have a vote and that when Indie comes I'll be forced back to England :-)

[Quisling]

amgmcqueen said:

How would Scot's feel about one last referendum.

Independence and everything that entails.......vs ending devolution and blowing up the Scottish parliament?

Do we let the MSPs out of Holyrood first?

If it is a YES then i'm voting to remain in the UK

If it is a NO then Will it be pay per view or can we get to watch it in person?