Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 10

[Evercross]

biggbn said:

So, using that logic, it is also quote possible one/some/many of us are 'shills ' for the Unionists?

Not at all! Many of us (you and I included) have stated our cases openly (and fallen foul of those who then want to label us - calling you a commie and me a Tory Yoon).

When asked I have said my allegiance is 'anything but the SNP' because I think that they have fomented division and base-tribalism as a platform for their cause.

You have previously stated you support independence but not under the control of the current SNP leadership, and indeed have softened your attitude towards something much short of full independence (largely for the same reasons that I resist the SNP - that their ideology and method is too divisive).

Just today Quisling made no secret of his allegiances!

Then you get those who enter the ring stating no allegiance and indeed an ignorance of the subject, yet within days seem to be able to present the partisan spin on the topic of the day, sometimes before it is even expressed officially........

[Evercross]

deadslow said:

glad to assist. Now go speak to your alter ego. Neither of you are right in the nut.

When reading your posts while in exile I kept thinking - what an accidentally apt username....

[Evercross]

[Quisling]

Evercross said:

Just today Quisling made no secret of his allegiances!

Order of priorities

1 = ME and my family
2 = The people of scotland

if leaving the UK will benefit 1 and 2

I'll vote for it

[Quisling]

Evercross said:

deadslow said:

glad to assist. Now go speak to your alter ego. Neither of you are right in the nut.

When reading your posts while in exile I kept thinking - what an accidentally apt username....

Well that has convinced me

how about you?

hang on

your ME

[is-uk]

https://twitter.com/PaulMurphyLive/status/13678097...

[is-uk]

Apparently this bill board campaign has been paid for through crowd funding that was set up only a couple of weeks ago. They have appeared in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen thus far.

[is-uk]

At least the SNP have failed to stamp out dry humour in Scotland. I've seen wee Nicola referred to on twitter as "Nitler, leader of the Third Dreich who controls the country from the Dreichstag in Edinburgh'

[is-uk]

Poor old Wings is really incredulous at the current SNP leadership. This is worth a quick view and the comments are enlightening....

https://wingsoverscotland.com/where-were-at/

[sherman]

is-uk said:

Apparently this bill board campaign has been paid for through crowd funding that was set up only a couple of weeks ago. They have appeared in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen thus far.

Theres a plane with a banner about today too
https://www.facebook.com/227860217272561/posts/403...

[Greedydog]

MrMan001 said:

Greedydog said:

I wasn't speaking about internal division, I was talking about the separation of two intertwined extremely complex economic entities. To try to conflate those matters with the South African situation is utter nonsense.

And as pointed out elsewhere, don't underestimate the level of internal division a close win for Yes could cause when you're talking about an irreversible change that doesn't have majority support in a lot of areas.

In your original post, you just said ‘complexity’. I’m not even a Scottish nationalist, but to suggest that Scotland becoming independent is some event of unprecedented complexity in modern times doesn’t seem true if you view it from a non-Anglocentric perspective.

You cite Singapore independence which happened in the 60's and South Africa which was a separate country in the 30's. Societally and economically Scotland in 2021 is a very different prospect. To say "X managed it 55 years ago" or "Y 90 years ago" as if the challenges are similar is disingenuous. You are simply not comparing like with like. Give one example of a similar modern first world country which has become independent in recent times?

[Garvin]

Having now seen, laid bare, the SNP control of the Scottish civil service together with the Crown Office and Lord Advocate plus it’s total disdain for the Scottish Parliament it must surely strike fear into the hearts of any sentient Scot what the SNP would do if they gained independence as the sitting government with an overall majority and Sturgeon at the helm. Think on as to what laws it might like to pass with no discernible check and balance of any second chamber.

Be afraid Scotland, be very afraid.

[anonymous-user]

Greedydog said:

You cite Singapore independence which happened in the 60's and South Africa which was a separate country in the 30's. Societally and economically Scotland in 2021 is a very different prospect. To say "X managed it 55 years ago" or "Y 90 years ago" as if the challenges are similar is disingenuous. You are simply not comparing like with like. Give one example of a similar modern first world country which has become independent in recent times?

Czech Republic? They’re in NATO now.

[Greedydog]

MrMan001 said:

Greedydog said:

You cite Singapore independence which happened in the 60's and South Africa which was a separate country in the 30's. Societally and economically Scotland in 2021 is a very different prospect. To say "X managed it 55 years ago" or "Y 90 years ago" as if the challenges are similar is disingenuous. You are simply not comparing like with like. Give one example of a similar modern first world country which has become independent in recent times?

Czech Republic? They’re in NATO now.

They didn't become independent, Czechoslovakia split into the Czech and Slovak Republics, it's not the same, or anywhere close to Scotland leaving the UK. Secondly, Czechoslovakia wasn't a modern first world country at the time.

And what does NATO have to do with anything other than being strategically useful to the US?

[anonymous-user]

Greedydog said:

And what does NATO have to do with anything other than being strategically useful to the US?

You used the outdated term “first-world countries”, of which NATO membership is implied.

On the rest, we’ll have to agree to disagree!

[ettore]

MrMan001 said:

Greedydog said:

You cite Singapore independence which happened in the 60's and South Africa which was a separate country in the 30's. Societally and economically Scotland in 2021 is a very different prospect. To say "X managed it 55 years ago" or "Y 90 years ago" as if the challenges are similar is disingenuous. You are simply not comparing like with like. Give one example of a similar modern first world country which has become independent in recent times?

Czech Republic? They’re in NATO now.

Not the same at all. Czechoslovakia was an artificial construct that wasn't that old anyway. The borders in central Europe have been mobile for centuries so there are really very few direct analogies. The breakup of the various Empires are nowhere near as complex either.

This is a completely (almost inextricably) linked mature liberal democracy with kith, kin, political, societal, historical, economical and emotional links. Putting aside the economic case which is - realistically - piss poor, it's the division that would be the real worry. How many complicated independence processes haven't resulted in serious unpleasantness?

[Greedydog]

Wings does have an amusing turn of phrase at times:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/plough-on-regardless...

[Greedydog]

MrMan001 said:

Greedydog said:

And what does NATO have to do with anything other than being strategically useful to the US?

You used the outdated term “first-world countries”, of which NATO membership is implied.

On the rest, we’ll have to agree to disagree!

Well why did you mention the Czech Republic then if it wasn't a first world country? Of course, it was to set up your point about an outdated term, rather than actually admit there wasn't a relevant example.

I however agree to disagree.

[anonymous-user]

ettore said:

Not the same at all. Czechoslovakia was an artificial construct that wasn't that old anyway. The borders in central Europe have been mobile for centuries so there are really very few direct analogies. The breakup of the various Empires are nowhere near as complex either.

This is a completely (almost inextricably) linked mature liberal democracy with kith, kin, political, societal, historical, economical and emotional links. Putting aside the economic case which is - realistically - piss poor, it's the division that would be the real worry. How many complicated independence processes haven't resulted in serious unpleasantness?

You are correct. Though I would suggest that Czechoslovakia did squeeze quite a lot of history into that 90 or so years, in the same way that the UK and EU did a significant amount of integration in a relatively short time, which is now gradually being unlinked with (relatively?) little drama.

[ettore]

MrMan001 said:

ettore said:

Not the same at all. Czechoslovakia was an artificial construct that wasn't that old anyway. The borders in central Europe have been mobile for centuries so there are really very few direct analogies. The breakup of the various Empires are nowhere near as complex either.

This is a completely (almost inextricably) linked mature liberal democracy with kith, kin, political, societal, historical, economical and emotional links. Putting aside the economic case which is - realistically - piss poor, it's the division that would be the real worry. How many complicated independence processes haven't resulted in serious unpleasantness?

You are correct. Though I would suggest that Czechoslovakia did squeeze quite a lot of history into that 90 or so years, in the same way that the UK and EU did a significant amount of integration in a relatively short time, which is now gradually being unlinked with (relatively?) little drama.

Possibly, plenty of history but mainly enacted on them rather than by them! It was a mutual separation as well. Bosnia and Serbia represents a closer tie with a bit of added religious friction. That went really well!

Neither are anything remotely like Scotland/UK in terms of complexity.