The EU v UK vaccine tussle
Discussion
Nickgnome said:
No he isn't? But I knew you would be the one who'd tried to spin my carefully chosen words.
By the way maybe enlighten us on your understanding of 'Best Efforts' and how that compares to Reasonable Efforts. In the UK of course 'Best Endeavours is more typical.
What are your plans for recieving the vaccine shot Nick? Are you still registered with a UK GP and inline for a UK injection?By the way maybe enlighten us on your understanding of 'Best Efforts' and how that compares to Reasonable Efforts. In the UK of course 'Best Endeavours is more typical.
Nickgnome said:
I trust we all remember the UK received some Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine from the Belgium last year.
A month before the EU because we approved it quicker.UK invested heavily and signed contracts with many of the projects because no one knew which would come on srream first, Pfizer was one of those.
maz8062 said:
Not crap. My 80 mum had the vaccine and has never recovered from it. She is likely to pass away from it, so I’m writing from personal experience. Not that I want sympathy, it just a fact of life that I’m putting out there.
She has caught covid and you are blaming the AZ vaccine?Nickgnome said:
There is no excess. It is not OUR vaccine. The global demand and committed purchases currently exceed supply. That is the problem
Currently production in the UK of this particular vaccine is going well but resilience is needed in the supply chain.
I hope that sensible discussions are taking place out of the media spotlight.
Sensible discussions took place early last year, the EU didn't participate and dragged their feet by actively slowing down Germany, France etc...Currently production in the UK of this particular vaccine is going well but resilience is needed in the supply chain.
I hope that sensible discussions are taking place out of the media spotlight.
s
t is now hitting the fan for that decision to play politics. They should apologise and resign, instead they seek to damage the company trying to help.You didn't answer my query on your supply of vaccine Nick, as someone who would be entitled to a fairly early shot, are you doing that via the UK system?
Mrr T said:
Slightly off topic but this debate does, to me, raise moral issues. Forget what has happened and who it is and which way you voted in 2016. I am 64 1/4 and am categorised as having health issues. I do not agree with that other than taking so many pills I rattle I am fit (ish) and live a normal life.
The current role out plan in the UK means I will get the vaccine end Feb March. It looks to me as if I will get the vaccine before many others with much greater need than I have, not just in the EU but across the ROW
I am not sure I am morally comfortable with that. Not much I can do about but maybe for once the world should have come together to treat us all equally.
Take the shot when offered, throwing extra complexity into the system by adding an offset for your date wont be helping.The current role out plan in the UK means I will get the vaccine end Feb March. It looks to me as if I will get the vaccine before many others with much greater need than I have, not just in the EU but across the ROW
I am not sure I am morally comfortable with that. Not much I can do about but maybe for once the world should have come together to treat us all equally.
maz8062 said:
Pascal Soriot said:
So, you can assure that this vaccine is efficient for the elderly?
“The issue with the elderly data is not so much whether it works or not. It´s that we have today a limited amount of data in the older population. You have to think that the program we have today was run by Oxford, it was the Oxford program. And Oxford is an academy group. They´re very ethical, and very academic. So they didn´t want to vaccinate older people until they had accumulated a lot of safety data in the 18 to 55 group. They said it was not ethical to vaccinate old people until they had enough safety data in younger people. Other companies took their risk and went ahead and vaccinated older people faster or earlier. If you start earlier, you have more data. Essentially, because Oxford started vaccinating older people later, we don´t have a huge number of older people that had been vaccinated. So that´s what the debate is. But we have strong data showing very strong antibody production against the virus in the elderly, similar to what we see in younger people.
There you go. From the horse mouth.
Which debunks what you said.So, you can assure that this vaccine is efficient for the elderly?
“The issue with the elderly data is not so much whether it works or not. It´s that we have today a limited amount of data in the older population. You have to think that the program we have today was run by Oxford, it was the Oxford program. And Oxford is an academy group. They´re very ethical, and very academic. So they didn´t want to vaccinate older people until they had accumulated a lot of safety data in the 18 to 55 group. They said it was not ethical to vaccinate old people until they had enough safety data in younger people. Other companies took their risk and went ahead and vaccinated older people faster or earlier. If you start earlier, you have more data. Essentially, because Oxford started vaccinating older people later, we don´t have a huge number of older people that had been vaccinated. So that´s what the debate is. But we have strong data showing very strong antibody production against the virus in the elderly, similar to what we see in younger people.
There you go. From the horse mouth.
i4got said:
Given the minimal risk to anyone under 50 with a normal BMI and no underlying conditions, perhaps that entire cohort could refuse the vaccine on humanitarian grounds as there are others in the world with a much greater need.
There are two reasons for vaccinating, first is to protect the most vulnerable, second is to stop the transmition. We need to do both to end this pandemic, that means we need the under 50's to also be vaccinated.Nickgnome said:
I'll stick to commenting on the Contractual situation. I'm not interested in posturing of Politicians whether Eu or UK. Neither come out of this very well for different reasons.
Possibly. I am in the UK for a few weeks but will need to get back as I'd set up a Property company developing apartments. I paid tax here last year and have not worked out where we will class as our home. I have a rental apartment and my GF owns and apartment in Tallinn but also another in Nice. We will look in Italy when this Covid thing subsides.
You cheating on your wife? Possibly. I am in the UK for a few weeks but will need to get back as I'd set up a Property company developing apartments. I paid tax here last year and have not worked out where we will class as our home. I have a rental apartment and my GF owns and apartment in Tallinn but also another in Nice. We will look in Italy when this Covid thing subsides.
clockworks said:
Watching a piece on the BBC News channel earlier about the EU vaccination roll out.
They went to vaccination centres in Madrid and Strasbourg. One of them was saying that they had had to cancel all vaccination appointments for the next 2 weeks because they didn't have any vaccine.
Surely this cannot be because of the AZ problem, because that hasn't been approved for use yet.
Looks like the Pfizer (and Moderna?) supply hasn't been delivered.
I was wondering at the end of last year why the UK was seemingly building up stocks before approval. Now I see the logic.
Correct.They went to vaccination centres in Madrid and Strasbourg. One of them was saying that they had had to cancel all vaccination appointments for the next 2 weeks because they didn't have any vaccine.
Surely this cannot be because of the AZ problem, because that hasn't been approved for use yet.
Looks like the Pfizer (and Moderna?) supply hasn't been delivered.
I was wondering at the end of last year why the UK was seemingly building up stocks before approval. Now I see the logic.
Pfizer had supply issues and had to shut down their production as they made a change to the factory to fix the problem. That affected supply to EU and UK.
The issues with supply in the EU are currently all Pfizer related, it's illegal to use the AZ vaccine.
It's also intriguing how the EU are not slagging of the French vaccine program, they have failed to deliver 100% and have abandoned it. Not a peep from the EU on that.
Blackpuddin said:
My views on national borders is that they are the cause of many problems and at the risk of sounding like an ancient crusty I wish we could just look after each other as people and not as national subjects.
This is the complete opposite to how the EU operates with their Single Market. It's fortress EU.don'tbesilly said:
Seems a strange decision to take given the evidence provided by AZ, and the need to protect their elderly EU citizens, even more so given just where the EU27 is in doing just that.
It looks very much like cutting your nose off to spite your face, and at the same time spreading uncertainty within the UK for those who have had the AZ vaccine, and those still to have the AZ vaccine in the elderly age group.
https://twitter.com/bopanc/status/1354845253421985...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-government-tol...
The messaging in the EU is appalling.It looks very much like cutting your nose off to spite your face, and at the same time spreading uncertainty within the UK for those who have had the AZ vaccine, and those still to have the AZ vaccine in the elderly age group.
https://twitter.com/bopanc/status/1354845253421985...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-government-tol...
Nickgnome said:
I do agree that when the contract is removed from the filing cabinet it's slippery slope. Nobody wins and one party losses a bit less than the other.
I also agree that contracts are mutually exclusive.
Your comment on the exclusivity of the UK supply could be an issue as AZ would then be in a difficult position when agreeing later contracts.
To be honest without seeing both contracts it is almost impossible to understand the legal position.
I hope the rhetoric is toned down and that AZ officials are trying with the Eu to reach an agreement. I do not see an easy solution though.
First world problems Eh!
The EU tried to bully AZ in public rather than doing the diplomatic thing behind closed doors. That's backfiring.I also agree that contracts are mutually exclusive.
Your comment on the exclusivity of the UK supply could be an issue as AZ would then be in a difficult position when agreeing later contracts.
To be honest without seeing both contracts it is almost impossible to understand the legal position.
I hope the rhetoric is toned down and that AZ officials are trying with the Eu to reach an agreement. I do not see an easy solution though.
First world problems Eh!
b0rk said:
I think what ultimately kicked this off was the first UK delivery apparently coming from EU based plants and AZ now staying the UK and EU production are separate. So UK production is only for the UK, whilst EU production is for all customers (exc the USA and India).
The public fall out is the EC believing AZ have acted in bad faith, if they’ve moved doses between supply chains to the detriment of the EU. If AZ had delivered or promised to deliver the expected quantity this would have been a non event.
Unless someone leaks the respective contracts who is right or wrong in this won’t come out.
You think or you know?The public fall out is the EC believing AZ have acted in bad faith, if they’ve moved doses between supply chains to the detriment of the EU. If AZ had delivered or promised to deliver the expected quantity this would have been a non event.
Unless someone leaks the respective contracts who is right or wrong in this won’t come out.
It's pretty clear a production problem UK went through the pain of months before vaccines were approved and being used because we got going sooner is now kicking the EU in the sponge and they are trying to pass the blame for their inaction onto AZ, which is just trying to do its best.
You think AZ should have committed to building the infrastructure before they knew they had an order to fulfill? They are not a charity.
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