The EU v UK vaccine tussle

[MOTORVATOR]

b0rk said:

Muddle238 said:

Once the agreed delivery has been achieved, AZ could quite happily turn their backs on the EU, only then will the penny drop for VDL as she realises she’s alienated one of very few companies that can help her precious bloc in a pandemic.

Not really the September point in the ruling is a interim delivery milestone so IIRC by this point AZ must have delivered in total circa 80m doses, 30m of which where delivered prior to case starting and the remaining 50m "due" by end of sept. As is being pointed out at current rates AZ will achieve this in the next month of so.

However this figure is not contract completed, rather AZ still ultimately have to deliver all 300m contracted doses and I'd expect the final ruling to set out a timeline for AZ to achieve this. The interim ruling does make it pretty obvious the EC's claim on a right to all 300m by end of September wasn't valid. Yet come the point AZ achieve the 80m figure they will still have a further 220m doses to deliver by some point that is TBC.

There is still the potential for the final ruling to deliver a nasty sting in the tail for AZ around those outstanding 220m doses, as firstly the ruling does state that the UK factories are part of the agreed production network. So failure to deliver in accordance with agreements isn't best reasonable efforts if those factories haven't also been used. So far and for the interim period not a problem.

If the court rules that the contract should been fulfilled by end of Q4 '21, remeber the "contract / APA" had five redacted periods then I can see AZ struggling without also using UK production and even with UK production. On the other hand if the court rules that deliveries post September should be 35m doses per two months then the EC will have to all intents and purposes "lost" on the basis of every claim they made.

That though is based on EU spin.

The EU/AZ contract expires at end of June as it does with other providers. A judgement to hold all providers to original quantities with an open ended date of supply would cause major problems for Sanofi, Curevax, J&J and so on and they are not on the hook forever.

All this judgement has done is provide AZ an additional period within which to satisfy it's contractual obligations to the end of it's contract. A period it appears they did not necessarily require.

EU had the opportunity to renew contracts past that cessation date regardless of quantities supplied to date and declined to do so. Quite the opposite of what they have done with Pfizer who likewise had undersupplied on their contracted quantities.

What the EU would like us to believe is that a contract is for the benefit of a single party hence their need to redact elements of the published contract.

[Gareth79]

Merkel mixes doses, gets Moderna after her first was AZ:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57571791

[RedWhiteMonkey]

Gareth79 said:

Merkel mixes doses, gets Moderna after her first was AZ:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57571791

Nothing unsual, standard practice over here in Germany. If AZ was your first jab then they give you the choice of either having AZ as the second or changing to either Moderna or Biontech (the vaccination centres appear to rotate these two depending on day and stock). Medical evidence appears to show the mixing the vaccinations is more effective. I had AZ as my first and opted for Moderna for second.

[tertius]

RedWhiteMonkey said:

Gareth79 said:

Merkel mixes doses, gets Moderna after her first was AZ:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57571791

Nothing unsual, standard practice over here in Germany. If AZ was your first jab then they give you the choice of either having AZ as the second or changing to either Moderna or Biontech (the vaccination centres appear to rotate these two depending on day and stock). Medical evidence appears to show the mixing the vaccinations is more effective. I had AZ as my first and opted for Moderna for second.

Interesting I didn’t realise that any studies had been completed and published on the mixing strategy.

I actually volunteered for such a study on the UK, but didn’t hear back and have had both doses now anyway.

[barryrs]

Considering just how cautious the Germans have been with AZ over the last year that approach seems somewhat “risky” by comparison.

[JNW1]

tertius said:

RedWhiteMonkey said:

Gareth79 said:

Merkel mixes doses, gets Moderna after her first was AZ:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57571791

Nothing unsual, standard practice over here in Germany. If AZ was your first jab then they give you the choice of either having AZ as the second or changing to either Moderna or Biontech (the vaccination centres appear to rotate these two depending on day and stock). Medical evidence appears to show the mixing the vaccinations is more effective. I had AZ as my first and opted for Moderna for second.

Interesting I didn’t realise that any studies had been completed and published on the mixing strategy.

Yes, I thought trials were underway evaluating this but I didn't think they'd provided anything conclusive as yet? However, I assume the Germans have reliable data to support what they're doing - can't imagine them just winging it.....

[RedWhiteMonkey]

tertius said:

RedWhiteMonkey said:

Medical evidence appears to show the mixing the vaccinations is more effective.

Interesting I didn’t realise that any studies had been completed and published on the mixing strategy.

Hands up, I cannot point to any published study, more because I have no idea where to look rather than there not being any though. Google does flag stuff up but I'll be totally honest and admit that its way too technical for me. Rather, I am going off what I have been told by two people I know (one a Professor of Public Health specialising in virology and the other a practicing medical doctor) and what I have read/heard in the media. In depth technics aside it makes sense mathematically and has worked with other vaccinations against other non-Covid illnesses.

Two slightly less technical pieces I found with a quick Google:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/06/mixing-cov...
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3

[RedWhiteMonkey]

barryrs said:

Considering just how cautious the Germans have been with AZ over the last year that approach seems somewhat “risky” by comparison.

You can still have AZ if you want it, you are just given a choice. There is a proven risk from AZ (a friend of my sister died of clotting two days after getting AZ in the UK) but I guess that is true of most medicines. However it isn't just Germany that is cautious with AZ, many countries are cautious.

Personally I had no concerns getting AZ and only went for a different second jab after informing myself and concluding that mixing was a good idea. If that would not have been an option I would have happily taken AZ as the second jab. Pretty much everything related to Covid is a rapidly developing situation, it increasingly looks like the UK will start offering mixes at some point.

Edited by RedWhiteMonkey on Wednesday 23 June 09:41

[EddieSteadyGo]

RedWhiteMonkey said:

....There is a proven risk from AZ (a friend of my sister died of clotting two days after getting AZ in the UK) ....

I know this wasn't the main point in your post, but I was told with the AZN vaccine that if clotting was going to occur it would start with symptoms appearing from about 4 days up to 4 weeks (which bearing in mind it is caused by an unintended immune response makes sense that it isn't immediate). Hence if your sister's friend died of clotting after just 2 days, it might not have been caused by the vaccine. Although I realise that doesn't help your sister's friend much. And you're right, there is a proven, albeit very low, risk.

[RedWhiteMonkey]

EddieSteadyGo said:

I know this wasn't the main point in your post, but I was told with the AZN vaccine that if clotting was going to occur it would start with symptoms appearing from about 4 days up to 4 weeks (which bearing in mind it is caused by an unintended immune response makes sense that it isn't immediate). Hence if your sister's friend died of clotting after just 2 days, it might not have been caused by the vaccine. Although I realise that doesn't help your sister's friend much. And you're right, there is a proven, albeit very low, risk.

Just checked and I stand (or rather sit) corrected, it was over a week after her AZ jab. Her death made the news, she was a radio presenter on BBC Newcastle. She was only 44, left a husband and child behind, really sad.

[EddieSteadyGo]

RedWhiteMonkey said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

I know this wasn't the main point in your post, but I was told with the AZN vaccine that if clotting was going to occur it would start with symptoms appearing from about 4 days up to 4 weeks (which bearing in mind it is caused by an unintended immune response makes sense that it isn't immediate). Hence if your sister's friend died of clotting after just 2 days, it might not have been caused by the vaccine. Although I realise that doesn't help your sister's friend much. And you're right, there is a proven, albeit very low, risk.

Just checked and I stand (or rather sit) corrected, it was over a week after her AZ jab. Her death made the news, she was a radio presenter on BBC Newcastle. She was only 44, left a husband and child behind, really sad.

Ah yes - I read about that. Tragic.

[pavarotti1980]

RedWhiteMonkey said:

Just checked and I stand (or rather sit) corrected, it was over a week after her AZ jab. Her death made the news, she was a radio presenter on BBC Newcastle. She was only 44, left a husband and child behind, really sad.

The local rag reported that she died of a clot and a bleed (quoted from the family) but as yet no definitive cause and link had been confirmed, although heavily inferred. Very sad, enjoyed listening to her on the radio

[RedWhiteMonkey]

pavarotti1980 said:

The local rag reported that she died of a clot and a bleed (quoted from the family) but as yet no definitive cause and link had been confirmed, although heavily inferred. Very sad, enjoyed listening to her on the radio

I never met her but out of basic respect for the dead I don't want to make this about her. The facts are that she died of a blood clot around a week after having the AZ jab, had no known underlying health issues and her death certificate issued by the coroner lists complications of the AZ vaccination as a consideration. It may well just have been an unlucky coincidence but seems unlikely given that AZ is recognised as being a blood clotting risk. All of this somewhat aside from the actual point I was making, all vaccines carry some risk and it looks like she was unlucky. Personally, had I not had the choice of a different second jab I would have taken the AZ jab as my second. I think the benefits outweigh the risk, but it has to be remembered that there is a risk.

[Randy Winkman]

It's always nice to see the Daily Mail be made to print a clarification, correction or apology. Today they are making a clarification about the article they printed on March 16th 2021 calling the EU "reckless" for halting the use of the AZ vaccine. As I said at the time, the EU gave advice that the AZ vaccine should continue to be used but it was some EU countries that decided not to use it. I remember some PHers arguing against me for a few days.

[loafer123]

Randy Winkman said:

It's always nice to see the Daily Mail be made to print a clarification, correction or apology. Today they are making a clarification about the article they printed on March 16th 2021 calling the EU "reckless" for halting the use of the AZ vaccine. As I said at the time, the EU gave advice that the AZ vaccine should continue to be used but it was some EU countries that decided not to use it. I remember some PHers arguing against me for a few days.

Good to see you enjoying your tiny crumb.

[andy43]

Looks like everybody's calmed down now - Telegraph link -
Brussels backs down over AstraZeneca vaccine row. The pharma giant had been due to attend court hearings later this month over why its delivery of vaccines had been delayed

With no sniggering and a poker straight face AZ's Ruud Dobber said:

I’m very pleased that we have been able to reach a common understanding which allows us to move forward and work in collaboration with the European Commission to help overcome the pandemic.

[loafer123]

Gosh. What a surprise. /s

[amgmcqueen]

VDL is an appalling individual.

[FiF]

No comment necessary. Position at May 25th 2021. Forecasted vs actual production.

[rdjohn]

Great news Sanofi have been granted approval for their Covid vaccine to be used in Europe.

https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/covid-le-vaccin-d...

Better late, than never - Errrrrrr!