CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)
Discussion
Graveworm said:
Jasandjules said:
But do you accept that over 25% of Covid deaths followed from infections contracted in hospitals?
Very unlikely do you have a source?It's possible 25% of hospital infections were caught in hospital but that will not equate to 25% of fatal infections (about a third will typically be asymptomatic for example) as the other 75% are going to include the most serious cases.
PBCD said:
tigamilla said:
That reddit (and it's a big one) gives a perspective on a lot of young people who seem to have genuinely embraced lockdown, and many seem to have got a weird satisfaction from knowing that others were forced into the same situation they find themselves in everyday, no doubt - these will be the same very loud voices on Twitter blocking / cancelling any dissenting voices. Quite different from what I see in the real world (people largely just getting on with it!). Also a bit sad as it gives the impression that a lot of people that should be out enjoying life are not and Covid coming along normalised this.
I have been on reddit for a few years now (mainly for the motoring/hifi/technology subreddits),and it's blindingly obvious that reddit is largely populated by introverted/reclusive left-leaning
under 30s who spend all their time moaning about republican 'boomers' and boasting (yes,
boasting!) how depressed/fed up/insecure/hard done by they are...
The big question I have are they representative of young people in general or just shy geeks??
Edited by PBCD on Tuesday 23 February 19:56
mondeoman said:
Gadgetmac said:
mondeoman said:
Gadgetmac said:
JagLover said:
Alucidnation said:
Has anyone actually come up with a credible reason why they think HMG, and the rest of the world for that matter, are destroying their economies etc on purpose?
Most governments are weak, their policies driven by short term popularity and media pressure. What is indisputable is that many have seized on this to further their own agenda and a significant proportion of these individuals are in favour of the reordering of our economies and societies on environmental or far left grounds.
The longer they keep us in lockdown the more damage they inflict and the closer they believe they will come to their goal. As an explanation it matches far more closely to observed actions and outcomes than believing they are acting in good faith. This explains why a respected academic institution can produce a study claiming that we will see thousands of deaths a day in summer if restrictions are relaxed in late spring. Despite vaccination and seasonality.
stevensdrs said:
All the pieces are starting to fit together now. The change in the law to allow access to medical records and now an app to allow these details to be accessed by anyone wanting to know your vaccination status. Sorry sir if you don't agree we can't let you in here or even out of the country. Despite continual denials from the Government ask yourself why make the law changes and why give a grant to an app developer to come up with the app. Think it's all conspiracy nonsense, it's just been shown on the ITV news. It is going to happen because no one will stand against it. Just another piece of mission creep to remove personal freedoms and liberties. No Biggie!
I saw them mention that during the ad break in Marcella. I don't watch the news itself. Apparently Gove is heading a review into vaccine passports (for domestic use, ie entering pubs etc) and whether or not it will be ethical. The fact it's even being discussed is frightening. This is nothing short of coercion.
Flooble said:
Indeed, a quick google and it's 25% (ish - sources vary) of the total number of infections are acquired in hospital. So for 25% of deaths to be down to a hospital acquired infection it would mean 100% fatality rate for anyone catching it in hospital. Even allowing for the fact that you don't go to hospital unless you're already in a bad way, 100% death rate seems excessive.
Not sure that's quite right. If the death rate from people catching Covid in hospital is much higher than for those who catch it outside of hospital (likely considering they are already in hospital for something serious enough to require hospitalisation), it could quite easily be that it accounts for a much higher % of deaths than it does infections.
Thin White Duke said:
stevensdrs said:
All the pieces are starting to fit together now. The change in the law to allow access to medical records and now an app to allow these details to be accessed by anyone wanting to know your vaccination status. Sorry sir if you don't agree we can't let you in here or even out of the country. Despite continual denials from the Government ask yourself why make the law changes and why give a grant to an app developer to come up with the app. Think it's all conspiracy nonsense, it's just been shown on the ITV news. It is going to happen because no one will stand against it. Just another piece of mission creep to remove personal freedoms and liberties. No Biggie!
I saw them mention that during the ad break in Marcella. I don't watch the news itself. Apparently Gove is heading a review into vaccine passports (for domestic use, ie entering pubs etc) and whether or not it will be ethical. The fact it's even being discussed is frightening. This is nothing short of coercion.
Alucidnation said:
Thin White Duke said:
stevensdrs said:
All the pieces are starting to fit together now. The change in the law to allow access to medical records and now an app to allow these details to be accessed by anyone wanting to know your vaccination status. Sorry sir if you don't agree we can't let you in here or even out of the country. Despite continual denials from the Government ask yourself why make the law changes and why give a grant to an app developer to come up with the app. Think it's all conspiracy nonsense, it's just been shown on the ITV news. It is going to happen because no one will stand against it. Just another piece of mission creep to remove personal freedoms and liberties. No Biggie!
I saw them mention that during the ad break in Marcella. I don't watch the news itself. Apparently Gove is heading a review into vaccine passports (for domestic use, ie entering pubs etc) and whether or not it will be ethical. The fact it's even being discussed is frightening. This is nothing short of coercion.
End of discussion.
Thin White Duke said:
Alucidnation said:
Thin White Duke said:
stevensdrs said:
All the pieces are starting to fit together now. The change in the law to allow access to medical records and now an app to allow these details to be accessed by anyone wanting to know your vaccination status. Sorry sir if you don't agree we can't let you in here or even out of the country. Despite continual denials from the Government ask yourself why make the law changes and why give a grant to an app developer to come up with the app. Think it's all conspiracy nonsense, it's just been shown on the ITV news. It is going to happen because no one will stand against it. Just another piece of mission creep to remove personal freedoms and liberties. No Biggie!
I saw them mention that during the ad break in Marcella. I don't watch the news itself. Apparently Gove is heading a review into vaccine passports (for domestic use, ie entering pubs etc) and whether or not it will be ethical. The fact it's even being discussed is frightening. This is nothing short of coercion.
End of discussion.
Alucidnation said:
Thin White Duke said:
Alucidnation said:
Thin White Duke said:
stevensdrs said:
All the pieces are starting to fit together now. The change in the law to allow access to medical records and now an app to allow these details to be accessed by anyone wanting to know your vaccination status. Sorry sir if you don't agree we can't let you in here or even out of the country. Despite continual denials from the Government ask yourself why make the law changes and why give a grant to an app developer to come up with the app. Think it's all conspiracy nonsense, it's just been shown on the ITV news. It is going to happen because no one will stand against it. Just another piece of mission creep to remove personal freedoms and liberties. No Biggie!
I saw them mention that during the ad break in Marcella. I don't watch the news itself. Apparently Gove is heading a review into vaccine passports (for domestic use, ie entering pubs etc) and whether or not it will be ethical. The fact it's even being discussed is frightening. This is nothing short of coercion.
End of discussion.
There are a lot of people out there who won't take the vaccine for whatever reason, so for a start it would see pushback and could damage businesses more than help them.
Gadgetmac said:
richardxjr said:
Yawn. Cant wait for the pubs to reopen, the gobby bores who like the sound of their own voice can crawl back there and bore the tits off somebody else
Yeah but then this thread will be empty if all the bores are down the pub no?
Not been doing much of that lately!
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Flooble said:
Indeed, a quick google and it's 25% (ish - sources vary) of the total number of infections are acquired in hospital. So for 25% of deaths to be down to a hospital acquired infection it would mean 100% fatality rate for anyone catching it in hospital. Even allowing for the fact that you don't go to hospital unless you're already in a bad way, 100% death rate seems excessive.
Not sure that's quite right. If the death rate from people catching Covid in hospital is much higher than for those who catch it outside of hospital (likely considering they are already in hospital for something serious enough to require hospitalisation), it could quite easily be that it accounts for a much higher % of deaths than it does infections.
I find the whole idea absolutely abhorrent. If you need some kind of passport to go onto a pub then surely you will need one to go to the supermarket or any other shop. If not, why not?
It seems to me that without the passport the only places you will be able to go are your own house, other private houses, and outside.
The vaccine, to all intents and purposes will be compulsory. We will be living in a country where unless you agree to let the government stick a needle in you, and inject you with a drug, there will be immense restrictions on your liberty and your ability to lead anything like a normal life.
It seems to me that without the passport the only places you will be able to go are your own house, other private houses, and outside.
The vaccine, to all intents and purposes will be compulsory. We will be living in a country where unless you agree to let the government stick a needle in you, and inject you with a drug, there will be immense restrictions on your liberty and your ability to lead anything like a normal life.
SCEtoAUX said:
I find the whole idea absolutely abhorrent. If you need some kind of passport to go onto a pub then surely you will need one to go to the supermarket or any other shop. If not, why not?
It seems to me that without the passport the only places you will be able to go are your own house, other private houses, and outside.
The vaccine, to all intents and purposes will be compulsory. We will be living in a country where unless you agree to let the government stick a needle in you, and inject you with a drug, there will be immense restrictions on your liberty and your ability to lead anything like a normal life.
All for a virus with a 99% survival rate and which most of the vulnerable people will be protected from come summer. It just doesn't sit right with me. It seems to me that without the passport the only places you will be able to go are your own house, other private houses, and outside.
The vaccine, to all intents and purposes will be compulsory. We will be living in a country where unless you agree to let the government stick a needle in you, and inject you with a drug, there will be immense restrictions on your liberty and your ability to lead anything like a normal life.
Thin White Duke said:
SCEtoAUX said:
I find the whole idea absolutely abhorrent. If you need some kind of passport to go onto a pub then surely you will need one to go to the supermarket or any other shop. If not, why not?
It seems to me that without the passport the only places you will be able to go are your own house, other private houses, and outside.
The vaccine, to all intents and purposes will be compulsory. We will be living in a country where unless you agree to let the government stick a needle in you, and inject you with a drug, there will be immense restrictions on your liberty and your ability to lead anything like a normal life.
All for a virus with a 99% survival rate and from which most of the vulnerable people will be protected from come summer. It just doesn't sit right with me. It seems to me that without the passport the only places you will be able to go are your own house, other private houses, and outside.
The vaccine, to all intents and purposes will be compulsory. We will be living in a country where unless you agree to let the government stick a needle in you, and inject you with a drug, there will be immense restrictions on your liberty and your ability to lead anything like a normal life.
Even worse are kids wearing masks inside the school for 6 hours a day, ridiculous!
Otispunkmeyer said:
I've brought up Mareks in chickens before. What has happened there is that you now need to vaccinate all your chickens all of the time because if they do get Mareks, its curtains for them. Whereas when Mareks first appeared, the mortality rate was much lower (now its 100%).
That was caused by mass vaccination using a non-sterilising vaccine that had very good effectiveness. Its not that the virus decided to get stronger, its that it mutated into a stronger variant and, where normally it would have killed the host and not moved on, now all the hosts were resistant to it, so it persisted. Few decades down the line, it means a pretty potent virus has been allowed to persist because it can still pass from host to host without killing them all off and stopping its own spread.
I am not sure that this will happen here though. It sounds like you have to have a very effective virus and you have to be able to sustain vaccination of the whole population. There are plenty of non-sterilising vaccines in use, but not everyone gets them (or needs them) and they're often not very highly effective. Flu-vaccine is a good example, its not sterilising, but only a subset of people get the shot every year (at risk people) and its only got a 50-60% effectiveness anyway.
I think we'll be in the same boat here. Only the Pfizer seems to have 90%+ effectiveness, AZN is around 70% and of course, not sure on the others like Moderna or Novavax. As much as some may dream for it, not everyone is going to get vaccinated for one reason or another.
So probably, not something to worry about? Again, not an expert so someone who knows more is welcome to shoot me down or pad out what I found.
Marek’s is very different to CV19 the lethality of Marek’s has evolved more as function of the infected chicken never clearing infection. Natural infection in the less virulent version whilst not fatal wasn’t ever cleared much like human herpes.That was caused by mass vaccination using a non-sterilising vaccine that had very good effectiveness. Its not that the virus decided to get stronger, its that it mutated into a stronger variant and, where normally it would have killed the host and not moved on, now all the hosts were resistant to it, so it persisted. Few decades down the line, it means a pretty potent virus has been allowed to persist because it can still pass from host to host without killing them all off and stopping its own spread.
I am not sure that this will happen here though. It sounds like you have to have a very effective virus and you have to be able to sustain vaccination of the whole population. There are plenty of non-sterilising vaccines in use, but not everyone gets them (or needs them) and they're often not very highly effective. Flu-vaccine is a good example, its not sterilising, but only a subset of people get the shot every year (at risk people) and its only got a 50-60% effectiveness anyway.
I think we'll be in the same boat here. Only the Pfizer seems to have 90%+ effectiveness, AZN is around 70% and of course, not sure on the others like Moderna or Novavax. As much as some may dream for it, not everyone is going to get vaccinated for one reason or another.
So probably, not something to worry about? Again, not an expert so someone who knows more is welcome to shoot me down or pad out what I found.
So far with the CV19 vaccines the outcome of infection is either recovery and clearance or in very rare cases death.
One of if not the most interesting question for CV19 in the future is how long will vaccines provide protection against development of serious illness. It’s fairly clear that this will be measured in months at the very worst but could be much longer. This in turn comes back to question of if lifelong protection against severe CV19 is possible and if so should infant vaccination be considered as part of normal childhood immunisation programmes?
Whilst this does seem far fetched Prof Gilbert (Oxford) and Dr Dormitzer (Pfizer) have started to openly speculate in media interviews around this recently you do have to wonder if just maybe.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/vaccine...
Are plenty of documented cases of pox ridden westerners making contact with previously unknown uncontacted South America tribes and promptly killing a lot of them off with flu or making them seriously ill from adenovirus or rhinovirus infections that are mere sniffles in the western host. So I don’t think it’s as simple as arguing these have though natural mutation evolved into mild viruses in us, early endemic exposure has a role to play in lack of severity, IMHO.
Leicester Loyal said:
Yeah I'm by no means anti vax or anything like that and will happily have one when offered, but a vaccine passport? We've gone mental.
Even worse are kids wearing masks inside the school for 6 hours a day, ridiculous!
Its ok Boris says masks in school are "clearly nonsensical ". So it will Even worse are kids wearing masks inside the school for 6 hours a day, ridiculous!
https://twitter.com/pcrclaims/status/1364016969662...
I'm sure he must have an equally dim view on vaccine passports, being a libertarian and all.
Thin White Duke said:
All for a virus with a 99% survival rate and which most of the vulnerable people will be protected from come summer. It just doesn't sit right with me.
The trouble is that fact has been purposely obscured with scare stories of how lethal this virus is. If a 0.0071% death rate in my council area is accepted as being dangerous then we are sunk. We see how this Government works, leak a story, see the media reaction and then implement whatever it is or re present it later in a different guise. They have done it time and time again, deny it at first and then find a way to do it. They are never challenged on it and if and when they get caught out there is some excuse made to take the heat off.Make no mistake vaccine passports are coming and that won't be the last thing. I was of a mind to refuse the vaccine as I don't need it having caught the bloody thing twice but on reflection given the current creep to vacccine passports I had it done last night. I am therefore on the database for when I require to prove it. I had the Astra Zeneca one and have had absolutely no reaction up to now. Perhaps it's just a placebo but that would really be conspiracy stuff!
And of course there may be new strains, which may or may not be unaffected by the vaccine you just had, so your shiny new passport is useless.
This whole damned thing has exposed just how much control the government will exert given a chance and it has also proved how dammed compliant some people will be of you scare them enough.
This whole damned thing has exposed just how much control the government will exert given a chance and it has also proved how dammed compliant some people will be of you scare them enough.
b0rk said:
One of if not the most interesting question for CV19 in the future is how long will vaccines provide protection against development of serious illness. It’s fairly clear that this will be measured in months at the very worst but could be much longer. This in turn comes back to question of if lifelong protection against severe CV19 is possible and if so should infant vaccination be considered as part of normal childhood immunisation programmes?
Vaccinating infants against something which practically causes them no harm at all is for what purpose again? sars-cov2 will in time become hcov5 along with the other 4 that have been with us for a while. Natural infection especially when young will likely provide more comprehensive overall immunity than vaccine focused spike protein as well. It would be utterly daft to require children to be vaccinated given their risk of the disease.The whole argument about vaccination reduces transmission imo is still one that is simply a disingenous and disguised attempt at zerocovid. Sterilising immunity (whether from infection or vaccine) is likely only to last for a short time. It will almost certainly be the first thing that disappears with symptomatic illness resistance then severe illness likely lasting longer (potentially much longer) in that order. Reinfection rates/vaccine data suggest that, so does data from studies of other hcovs. Requiring mass vaccination of the population to try to reduce infections long term is a pipe dream.
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