CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)

[scenario8]

W201_190e said:

scenario8 said:

W201_190e said:

scenario8 said:

W201_190e said:

Indeed, although it doesn't help people who got new jobs after the end of last October like me, as we are not eligible for it.

Do you expect to be in need of it or would benefit from furlough now?

I would absolutely benefit over not being paid.

Perhaps I’m not being clear in my questioning. Apologies. I meant are you currently in a position that your job that you recently acquired is untenable so you either have been made redundant or expect to be made redundant before September? I’m not being facetious I was just intrigued that it read like you had recently been employed in job X and that position had already become untenable.

I also would not benefit particularly from furlough due to the nature of my contract. Or at least that was my understanding from the then legislation this time last year.

A lot of my colleagues are being furloughed, and so far the company has been very good about keeping me on, but it's quiet and I'm still newish, although past probation. Worse case scenario they've said I'd go, but they would re-employ me when things pick up.

Genuinely I wish you all the very best. Fingers crossed for you.

[scenario8]

Chromegrill said:

soofsayer said:

Easy to forget mask wearing isn't about protecting you and your own health, it's about protecting everyone else. Same theme with the vaccinations.

In short, it depends on the type of mask but for most people, yes. Exactly correct that fabric face coverings are more about preventing people who are unknowingly infected whilst out and about from transmitting the virus onto other people. Hence when I wear one in a supermarket I'm doing it primarily to reduce the risk I might infect you, not because I'm worried you might infect me.

Surgical face masks (e.g. type IIR) offer two way protection but are not generally reusable, in relatively short supply (at least, they were earlier in the pandemic) and more costly than a washable fabric covering. Used throughout health and care settings, they protect staff from patients and patients from staff. From my own experience over the past few months the number of COVID-19 outbreaks amongst back office staff working in poorly ventilated offices plummeted after we advised they should be wearing surgical masks whenever they were in the same room as someone else, just as the medical and nursing staff were already doing.

Respirator stye masks (FFP3/N95 etc) that fit snugly to the face are of particular benefit protecting medical personnel when undertaking procedures on ventilated patients that generate aerosols ie tiny suspensions of exhaled particles rather than larger respiratory droplets.

From this it should be obvious that
1. wearing a builder's mask with exhalation valve in a supermarket is about the worst thing to do as far as protecting other people is concerned as it just blows viruses straight out into every passing person if worn by someone who's currently infected.
2. the suggestion that surgical masks can't possibly work because the fibres of surgical masks are wider apart than the diameter of a virus particle is wrong because it fails to account for Brownian motion of tiny virus particles, electrostatic attraction to charged fibres and generally the point that a bead might well be smaller than the holes in a lump of Swiss cheese but unless the holes all align, that bead won't get through.
3. fabric coverings are more effective the thicker they are, but how many people know that the World Health Organisation advises three layers of fabric as a minimum? I don't recall ever hearing a government message about what sorts of face coverings should or should not be worn in different settings. Come to think of it I don't recall it being advised that wearing them around the chin offered no protection either but plenty of people seem to think that's how they should be worn.

SAGE and WHO advice is very clear that whilst face coverings (as opposed to medical grade masks) are not a magic bullet, they offer an additional and sufficiently worthwhile measure of protection at the moment to the general public, though more by reducing the risk the wearer poses to others than the risk others pose to the wearer.

https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/advice-on-...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen... (yes it says January 2020 but is obviously from Janbuary 2021.)

Does not all of the above assume masks are worn, and treated, “properly”?

Has there been much “proper” science researching the effectiveness of masks in the real World ?

[TV8]

isaldiri said:

TV8 said:

“Very likely work”. There are no actual infection studies that prove they work. Please stop making this up.

They don’t, end of.

If you're suggesting only full nbc suits work i think you are nuts. Or perhaps you don't think those work either. Suit yourself.

Haven’t a clue what a full nbc suit is but like your mask studies, another figment of your imagination. It’s you who is nuts....

[amgmcqueen]

The Tories are destroying the Country.

[The Ferret]

W201_190e said:

A lot of my colleagues are being furloughed, and so far the company has been very good about keeping me on, but it's quiet and I'm still newish, although past probation. Worse case scenario they've said I'd go, but they would re-employ me when things pick up.

And therein lies the biggest problem. Maybe not with your employer, but there are way too many out there using “lack of work” as an excuse to have the govt pay their employers wages, when actually it’s a normal blip in workload experienced every year.

Our industry (civils) barely gets out of bed for a good 2 months of winter. This is seasonal, it happens every year. The issue is once one company furloughs in those circumstances they obtain a financial advantage over the competition, which is likely to be reflected in their ability to price work lower moving forward due to the savings made. So in response the entire industry has to do it, or face being priced out.

Absolute madness, why the government can’t see this is beyond me. Targeted help yes, but a free meal for anyone that chooses to accept it, that’s just complete b******t

[W201_190e]

scenario8 said:

W201_190e said:

scenario8 said:

W201_190e said:

scenario8 said:

W201_190e said:

Indeed, although it doesn't help people who got new jobs after the end of last October like me, as we are not eligible for it.

Do you expect to be in need of it or would benefit from furlough now?

I would absolutely benefit over not being paid.

Perhaps I’m not being clear in my questioning. Apologies. I meant are you currently in a position that your job that you recently acquired is untenable so you either have been made redundant or expect to be made redundant before September? I’m not being facetious I was just intrigued that it read like you had recently been employed in job X and that position had already become untenable.

I also would not benefit particularly from furlough due to the nature of my contract. Or at least that was my understanding from the then legislation this time last year.

A lot of my colleagues are being furloughed, and so far the company has been very good about keeping me on, but it's quiet and I'm still newish, although past probation. Worse case scenario they've said I'd go, but they would re-employ me when things pick up.

Genuinely I wish you all the very best. Fingers crossed for you.

Cheers Grateful to still be employed for now.

[SCEtoAUX]

This furlough thing utterly beggars belief, but I simply cannot see how they will keep the lockdowns going without the numbers to justify it.

They can't lie about the number of deaths and they can't lie about the number of hospitalisations. (Well not to any degree).

Vaccinations are clearly working well, daily deaths are down 36% week on week, and positive tests 30% week on week.

By mid-April we will surely be looking at fewer than 100 deaths per day, and everyone over 50 who wants a vaccine will have had one.

Impossible surely to justify anything other than Tier 1 restrictions by then, and I would argue no reason at all for any restrictions.

[danllama]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yep. Been saying this for months. They don't want this to be over.

[TV8]

scenario8 said:

Does not all of the above assume masks are worn, and treated, “properly”?

Has there been much “proper” science researching the effectiveness of masks in the real World ?

Loads of proper science for years and they don’t work. Then the lunatics took over the asylum to subvert society and 99.9% of people,went along with it.

[W201_190e]

The Ferret said:

W201_190e said:

A lot of my colleagues are being furloughed, and so far the company has been very good about keeping me on, but it's quiet and I'm still newish, although past probation. Worse case scenario they've said I'd go, but they would re-employ me when things pick up.

And therein lies the biggest problem. Maybe not with your employer, but there are way too many out there using “lack of work” as an excuse to have the govt pay their employers wages, when actually it’s a normal blip in workload experienced every year.

Our industry (civils) barely gets out of bed for a good 2 months of winter. This is seasonal, it happens every year. The issue is once one company does it they obtain a financial advantage over the competition, which is likely to be reflected in their ability to price work lower moving forward due to the savings made. So in response the entire industry has to do it, or face being priced out.

Absolute madness, why the government can’t see this is beyond me. Targeted help yes, but a free meal for anyone that chooses to accept it, that’s just complete b******t

Don't get me wrong, even if I was entitled, I have absolutely no wish to be furloughed. It almost drove me mad last year.

[danllama]

Flooble said:

Taylor James said:

Jordan210 said:

Furlough being extended till September!

Cost of £56BN so far and £100BN by end of September. This is Alice in Wonderland economics.

I remember the massive arguments over whether we could afford to spend £5bn on an aircraft carrier.

Someone must be able to explain how we are able to afford this. Presumably a lot of the money gets recycled into the UK economy, but I wonder how much goes on Chinese tat from Amazon/Ebay.

Where are all those economists that were crying about us leaving the EU!?

[The Ferret]

W201_190e said:

Don't get me wrong, even if I was entitled, I have absolutely no wish to be furloughed. It almost drove me mad last year.

I’m sure that’s the case mate and I wasn’t getting at you or your employer, but the blanket approach to this which will ultimately line the pockets of the few at the expense of the many.

Fingers crossed for you, hopefully it’ll all come good.

[isaldiri]

Chromegrill said:

In short, it depends on the type of mask but for most people, yes. Exactly correct that fabric face coverings are more about preventing people who are unknowingly infected whilst out and about from transmitting the virus onto other people. Hence when I wear one in a supermarket I'm doing it primarily to reduce the risk I might infect you, not because I'm worried you might infect me.

So in short it's bullst. in areas where exposure is minimal like in shops where you are just passing by quickly, 'face coverings' don't make a blind bit of difference to risk as the risk of infection is small and remains small. When the risk is high (enclosed indoors space like... er.. hospitals...?) mask or no mask you're going to get it. So the 'you protect me' stuff is utter nonsense as it doesn't bloody work.

[monkfish1]

SCEtoAUX said:

T

They can't lie about the number of deaths and they can't lie about the number of hospitalisations. (Well not to any degree).

.

They can. Any reason why you think they cant? The lie about everything else.

Or they simply invent some new scary story. Their hand will be forced as the death and case rate are diminishing fast, so id expect something fairly soon. Otherwise we will soon be in a position where only a handful are dying every day, but we are all still locked up.

[scenario8]

If you crept up on every adult across the land tomorrow morning and spooked them with the question I wonder what percentage of the enquired would answer in knee jerk fashion “the wearer” when asked for whose benefit is the wearing of the mask. Even after all these months I’d hazard “a lot”.

[TV8]

What they said before the summer totalitarian actions.

https://youtu.be/HHGtyH0SYsc

[RSTurboPaul]

monkfish1 said:

Alucidnation said:

Jordan210 said:

Furlough being extended till September!

Madness.

And not because of the cost either.

And still people think things will be back to normal by mid summer?

Judge them by what they do, not what they say. Extending furlough to september says only one thing. And its not normality.

Boris: 'We're going to see phenomenal growth come Summer!!'

Sunak: 'We're extending Furlough for a another quarter of a year.'


These two statements, together, do not compute.


As noted, it is hard not to believe that something else is 'up' when there is this level of disparity between words and actions.

(See also: vaccine passports.).

[monkfish1]

RSTurboPaul said:

monkfish1 said:

Alucidnation said:

Jordan210 said:

Furlough being extended till September!

Madness.

And not because of the cost either.

And still people think things will be back to normal by mid summer?

Judge them by what they do, not what they say. Extending furlough to september says only one thing. And its not normality.

Boris: 'We're going to see phenomenal growth come Summer!!'

Sunak: 'We're extending Furlough for a another quarter of a year.'


These two statements, together, do not compute.


As noted, it is hard not to believe that something else is 'up' when there is this level of disparity between words and actions.

(See also: vaccine passports.).

Indeed. Which is why i say, judge them by their actions, not words.

And based on your examples, there is only one conclusion, as one is an action, the other just words.

Todays action clearly indicates the direction of travel,

[johnboy1975]

danllama said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yep. Been saying this for months. They don't want this to be over.

I think they want it to be over, but on their terms. Ie successful vaccine rollout. Guess they've calculated that an extra 50b to stay on message is a price worth paying.

I really hope Europe/ the World open up quicker than us, with less vaccine, and show a pretty minimal uptick (due to seasonality?)

And that a political party can use this data to show the Tories up. Doubt it will be labour

JHB is going to do her nut tomorrow

[danllama]

johnboy1975 said:

danllama said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yep. Been saying this for months. They don't want this to be over.

I think they want it to be over, but on their terms. Ie successful vaccine rollout. Guess they've calculated that an extra 50b to stay on message is a price worth paying.

I really hope Europe/ the World open up quicker than us, with less vaccine, and show a pretty minimal uptick (due to seasonality?)

And that a political party can use this data to show the Tories up. Doubt it will be labour

JHB is going to do her nut tomorrow

To your first point, if that were true the time would be now. The country would probably universally agree that the vaccine rollout is the one thing they've managed ok. The vulnerable are done. Everyone else will get their chance if they want it. Unless they're planning to force those under 45 the job is done. We should be opening swiftly now. But we're not.

The world is opening up quicker than us, despite our vaccine success. Much of Europe has opened hospitality. Large chunks of the US have no restrictions, unrestricted movement etc.

It isn't hard to see why many think our government have some other agenda, and I get the sense they feel they are running out of time to get done whatever it is they're trying to.

As someone said earlier, the conservatives are destroying this country. And our MP's and media are encouraging and allowing them to. It seems to be Boris is playing the same game as Australia. I've never wanted to be in Florida so badly in my life.

Edited by danllama on Tuesday 2nd March 23:36