CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)

[bern]

TV8 said:

Graveworm said:

foreright said:

Were any of those 1600 statutory instruments for anything as serious as putting a curfew on the entire population or mandating that you can't meet your own family in your own house?

Come on... I don't think any rational person could look at what's happened over the last year and say it's been democratic.

Ignoring that there hasn't been a curfew, many of them were voted on, those that were not the opposition parties openly supported so I am not sure what a vote would have achieved. They are laid before parliament. The people making the SI's were democratically elected, they did it under primary legislation passed by a democratically elected parliament, who decided to give them that authority.

5.3% put through a review approval process. Most of them same day I think. Totally undemocratic.

https://www.hansardsociety.org.uk/publications/dat...

Thanks for sharing that. Incredible.

Still it's the very definition of democracy init G'worm?

[ant1973]

Furlough update:-

10% Employer Contribution in July
20% in August.

Cliff edge approaches....

All restrictions will have to be released by end of June, it would seem. Except we know that's bks....

[ant1973]

Business Rates reduced - but only by 2/3

Sounds like reality is starting to bite.

[The Ferret]

£407bn

Sorry but nothing left now but to laugh at this situation.

[MikeT66]

TV8 said:

Graveworm said:

foreright said:

Were any of those 1600 statutory instruments for anything as serious as putting a curfew on the entire population or mandating that you can't meet your own family in your own house?

Come on... I don't think any rational person could look at what's happened over the last year and say it's been democratic.

Ignoring that there hasn't been a curfew, many of them were voted on, those that were not the opposition parties openly supported so I am not sure what a vote would have achieved. They are laid before parliament. The people making the SI's were democratically elected, they did it under primary legislation passed by a democratically elected parliament, who decided to give them that authority.

5.3% put through a review approval process. Most of them same day I think. Totally undemocratic.

https://www.hansardsociety.org.uk/publications/dat...

I think the reality is that we do sometimes need a government that can act quick in times of crisis, unhampered by long, drawn-out parliamentary processes. The government perhaps had a case for that back in March, when the future was so uncertain. However, I think it fair to say, also, that it was becoming clear from May onwards that this wasn't the crisis that needed such subterfuge from the government. What was needed was assessment and planning for the next flu season - beginning in late Autumn, which never really transpired.

For the government to avoid proper process in seeking Parliamentary approval for most of the past year is very concerning, and definitely needs a review of emergency powers. If we are to learn anything from this shambolic episode, we also need to review the role of SAGE, their members and their influence.

[Jasandjules]

The Ferret said:

£407bn

Sorry but nothing left now but to laugh at this situation.

For how many deaths? The cost per death is absolutely mind boggling.

[ant1973]

6% increase in Corporation Tax from 2023!

That's me done with the Tories!

[Ntv]

ant1973 said:

Furlough update:-

10% Employer Contribution in July
20% in August.

Cliff edge approaches....

All restrictions will have to be released by end of June, it would seem. Except we know that's bks....

Very obviously to reduce chances of summer unrest

[The Ferret]

Jasandjules said:

For how many deaths? The cost per death is absolutely mind boggling.

My rough maths makes it £3.3m per death to date.

Forget the cost per death though, it’s the fact this spend is continuing which is the real problem

Edited by The Ferret on Wednesday 3rd March 13:22

[grumbledoak]

Ntv said:

Very obviously to reduce chances of summer unrest

That is all the furlough has ever been for. It enables the lockdowns.

So the extension enables...

[Ntv]

grumbledoak said:

Ntv said:

Very obviously to reduce chances of summer unrest

That is all the furlough has ever been for. It enables the lockdowns.

So the extension enables...

A couple of quid for schools, with 10m children having been totally shafted for a year of their development and education.

And billions to extend furlough to reduce the chances of the Government looking like tits in the event of unrest as furlough ends in June, when all restrictions are apparently going to be ended, we were told.

And violence never pays?

What an utterly contemptible Government.

[djc206]

grumbledoak said:

That is all the furlough has ever been for. It enables the lockdowns.

So the extension enables...

The extension is to allow time for hard hit industries like hospitality and travel to recover. A sudden stop before they can trade freely would not work. Aviation in particular is likely to be hard hit for a considerable length of time but supports a lot of well paid jobs. Avoiding those jobs going at a very low cost is money wisely spent.

[Jasandjules]

grumbledoak said:

Ntv said:

Very obviously to reduce chances of summer unrest

That is all the furlough has ever been for. It enables the lockdowns.

So the extension enables...

I think that was "fine" last year (in terms of the general public) but this year I don't think it will be enough if they try to lockdown in August/September again because people are now working on the "I will be free in summer". I suspect that going against that will be the trigger that finally makes people say no more.

[danllama]

The Ferret said:

£407bn

Sorry but nothing left now but to laugh at this situation.

Imagine what could have been done with 400bn this last year.

I think the conservatives have lost my vote for life. BJ and T May have ensured that.

[bodhi]

So from what I can tell, Rishi is encouraging people to buy their first houses, not making it any more expensive to run a horrible old polluting car, is encouraging business to take on new people and skills, and leaving alcohol duty well alone.

Don't think Mr Schwab will take too kindly to that. Has nobody told Rishi the WEF are in charge now?

[Twinfan]

ant1973 said:

6% increase in Corporation Tax from 2023!

That's me done with the Tories!

Depends on the size of your company. It will be scaled and stay at 19% for the smallest.

However, hiking it from 19% to 25% for the largest is proper going to sting and will drop down into reduced profits and lower pay rises etc.

My issue is that no-one working outside the private sector e.g. civil service, police, NHS, councils etc will be paying anything towards to C-19 bill as they've frozen personal taxes

[Ntv]

djc206 said:

grumbledoak said:

That is all the furlough has ever been for. It enables the lockdowns.

So the extension enables...

The extension is to allow time for hard hit industries like hospitality and travel to recover. A sudden stop before they can trade freely would not work. Aviation in particular is likely to be hard hit for a considerable length of time but supports a lot of well paid jobs. Avoiding those jobs going at a very low cost is money wisely spent.

You think that on a net basis jobs in hospitality will not be viable in July or August, but will be in October or November?

The world has changed. Aviation will indeed be very hard hit for a long time. There were jobs in aviation 18 months ago that will not exist in 6 months or 6 years from now.

World has changed.

They are propping up the world of 2019. In an effort to avert unrest (an entirely justifiable concern IMO).

[Ntv]

Twinfan said:

ant1973 said:

6% increase in Corporation Tax from 2023!

That's me done with the Tories!

Depends on the size of your company. It will be scaled and stay at 19% for the smallest.

However, hiking it from 19% to 25% for the largest is proper going to sting and will drop down into reduced profits and lower pay rises etc.

My issue is that no-one working outside the private sector e.g. civil service, police, NHS, councils etc will be paying anything towards to C-19 bill as they've frozen personal taxes

They are paying with no wage increase to be fair.

[johnboy1975]

djc206 said:

grumbledoak said:

That is all the furlough has ever been for. It enables the lockdowns.

So the extension enables...

The extension is to allow time for hard hit industries like hospitality and travel to recover. A sudden stop before they can trade freely would not work. Aviation in particular is likely to be hard hit for a considerable length of time but supports a lot of well paid jobs. Avoiding those jobs going at a very low cost is money wisely spent.

So let them trade freely?

Re Aviation I agree. Targeted furlough.

Furlough for all means, as I understand it, if your work drops off seasonally in the summer to 50% (as it might in certain industries every summer), you can furlough 50% of your staff for a 3 month holiday. Indeed, if you dont, your competitors gain an advantage, so you are practically 'forced' to

[foreright]

MikeT66 said:

I think the reality is that we do sometimes need a government that can act quick in times of crisis, unhampered by long, drawn-out parliamentary processes. The government perhaps had a case for that back in March, when the future was so uncertain. However, I think it fair to say, also, that it was becoming clear from May onwards that this wasn't the crisis that needed such subterfuge from the government. What was needed was assessment and planning for the next flu season - beginning in late Autumn, which never really transpired.

For the government to avoid proper process in seeking Parliamentary approval for most of the past year is very concerning, and definitely needs a review of emergency powers. If we are to learn anything from this shambolic episode, we also need to review the role of SAGE, their members and their influence.