CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)

[p1stonhead]

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

The increases unveiled by Rishi Sunak will bring the UK tax burden up to levels not seen for half a century, according to a report from the Office for Budget Responsibility that was issued alongside the Budget.

The OBR report said: “The tax rises announced in this Budget increase the tax burden from 34.0 per cent to 35.0 per cent of GDP in 2025-26, its highest level since Roy Jenkins was chancellor in the late 1960s.”

It said that half of the increase was due to the 6 percentage point increase in the corporation tax rate to 25 per cent.

Jenkins was chancellor from 1967 to 1970 in the Labour government of Harold Wilson.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ab638c8-d5f7-4e42-a786...

No biggie, I guess...

How did you expect this to be paid for?

The rises for self employed seem quite reasonable to me (and I’ll suffer some of them myself).

A broadly based tax increase that affected most people? This is the thin end of the wedge. All of this simply encourages Karen to believe that lockdowns are cost free (for them).

You want poorer people to pay more?

It doesn’t kick in to anyone unless they’re making £50k profits....

[Blue62]

p1stonhead said:

You want poorer people to pay more?

It doesn’t kick in to anyone unless they’re making £50k profits....

The idea that any chancellor of any party would design a budget to shut mythical Karen up is laughable. We are in uncharted waters and I think we will have to see further rises over the next few years, we still don’t understand what short to medium term impact Brexit will have and on that basis the CT rise is a concern.

[grumbledoak]

Zoobeef said:

I just won't be voting. Whoever gets in, who gives a fk.

This is the only thing they will notice. If we all stop pretending that our vote matters they will have to stop pretending they have a mandate.

[Alucidnation]

Carrot said:

I haven't voted in over 20 years as it's always a choice between getting fked, or getting fked. So I am going to get fked I would rather it be a surprise...

Lo and behold, we have been royally fked again.

Again?

In what way?

[ant1973]

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

The increases unveiled by Rishi Sunak will bring the UK tax burden up to levels not seen for half a century, according to a report from the Office for Budget Responsibility that was issued alongside the Budget.

The OBR report said: “The tax rises announced in this Budget increase the tax burden from 34.0 per cent to 35.0 per cent of GDP in 2025-26, its highest level since Roy Jenkins was chancellor in the late 1960s.”

It said that half of the increase was due to the 6 percentage point increase in the corporation tax rate to 25 per cent.

Jenkins was chancellor from 1967 to 1970 in the Labour government of Harold Wilson.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ab638c8-d5f7-4e42-a786...

No biggie, I guess...

How did you expect this to be paid for?

The rises for self employed seem quite reasonable to me (and I’ll suffer some of them myself).

A broadly based tax increase that affected most people? This is the thin end of the wedge. All of this simply encourages Karen to believe that lockdowns are cost free (for them).

You want poorer people to pay more?

It doesn’t kick in to anyone unless they’re making £50k profits....

Why shouldn't everyone pay? I didn't agree with lockdown and have had zero benefit from the vast support provided to employees?

[p1stonhead]

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

The increases unveiled by Rishi Sunak will bring the UK tax burden up to levels not seen for half a century, according to a report from the Office for Budget Responsibility that was issued alongside the Budget.

The OBR report said: “The tax rises announced in this Budget increase the tax burden from 34.0 per cent to 35.0 per cent of GDP in 2025-26, its highest level since Roy Jenkins was chancellor in the late 1960s.”

It said that half of the increase was due to the 6 percentage point increase in the corporation tax rate to 25 per cent.

Jenkins was chancellor from 1967 to 1970 in the Labour government of Harold Wilson.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ab638c8-d5f7-4e42-a786...

No biggie, I guess...

How did you expect this to be paid for?

The rises for self employed seem quite reasonable to me (and I’ll suffer some of them myself).

A broadly based tax increase that affected most people? This is the thin end of the wedge. All of this simply encourages Karen to believe that lockdowns are cost free (for them).

You want poorer people to pay more?

It doesn’t kick in to anyone unless they’re making £50k profits....

Why shouldn't everyone pay? I didn't agree with lockdown and have had zero benefit from the vast support provided to employees?

Everyone will ultimately pay. A lot of those furloughed jobs aren’t coming back so they’ll be out on their arses.

But those with the most should help take most of the burden. That’s how tax works anyway

Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 3rd March 18:21

[Zoobeef]

Graveworm said:

a) We have polls to show public opinion from several agencies, they all show very strong support for the restrictions at a level that is well outside their margin for error and would need them to be out by an order of magnitude more than they have ever been. None have shown lack of support, despite them also showing low satisfaction in the government themselves. Even within those who don't support the measures, a significant number said they do so because they believe they don't go far enough. So I can say broadly supported by the majority.
b) I agree and history shows us this but they haven't passed laws that change the basis of democracy. Democracy is government by elected representatives in free and fair elections. If they stop you voting them out or standing for parliament then that's undemocratic.
c) They may have but that is what governments do. I don't believe they have passed any laws to limit what the media can say.
d) Bad actions by wicked democratically governments are exactly that. Saying something is democratic doesn't get them a free pass and that's a straw man. They should be held to account, but it's not the same as saying it's undemocratic.

I think the issue with public opinion is its coming off the back of a censorship and behavioural moulding program not seen outside of movies.

[ant1973]

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

The increases unveiled by Rishi Sunak will bring the UK tax burden up to levels not seen for half a century, according to a report from the Office for Budget Responsibility that was issued alongside the Budget.

The OBR report said: “The tax rises announced in this Budget increase the tax burden from 34.0 per cent to 35.0 per cent of GDP in 2025-26, its highest level since Roy Jenkins was chancellor in the late 1960s.”

It said that half of the increase was due to the 6 percentage point increase in the corporation tax rate to 25 per cent.

Jenkins was chancellor from 1967 to 1970 in the Labour government of Harold Wilson.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ab638c8-d5f7-4e42-a786...

No biggie, I guess...

How did you expect this to be paid for?

The rises for self employed seem quite reasonable to me (and I’ll suffer some of them myself).

A broadly based tax increase that affected most people? This is the thin end of the wedge. All of this simply encourages Karen to believe that lockdowns are cost free (for them).

You want poorer people to pay more?

It doesn’t kick in to anyone unless they’re making £50k profits....

Why shouldn't everyone pay? I didn't agree with lockdown and have had zero benefit from the vast support provided to employees?

Everyone will ultimate out. A lot of those furloughed jobs aren’t coming back so they’ll be out on their arses.

But those with the most should help take most of the burden. That’s how tax works anyway

But why? You could make the case that those who benefited the most should pay it back?

This is a mess of the government's making - biggest fall in GDP and near the top of the death league.

Every penny of increased tax will be a penny of expenditure I forgo - they can do one.

[p1stonhead]

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

The increases unveiled by Rishi Sunak will bring the UK tax burden up to levels not seen for half a century, according to a report from the Office for Budget Responsibility that was issued alongside the Budget.

The OBR report said: “The tax rises announced in this Budget increase the tax burden from 34.0 per cent to 35.0 per cent of GDP in 2025-26, its highest level since Roy Jenkins was chancellor in the late 1960s.”

It said that half of the increase was due to the 6 percentage point increase in the corporation tax rate to 25 per cent.

Jenkins was chancellor from 1967 to 1970 in the Labour government of Harold Wilson.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ab638c8-d5f7-4e42-a786...

No biggie, I guess...

How did you expect this to be paid for?

The rises for self employed seem quite reasonable to me (and I’ll suffer some of them myself).

A broadly based tax increase that affected most people? This is the thin end of the wedge. All of this simply encourages Karen to believe that lockdowns are cost free (for them).

You want poorer people to pay more?

It doesn’t kick in to anyone unless they’re making £50k profits....

Why shouldn't everyone pay? I didn't agree with lockdown and have had zero benefit from the vast support provided to employees?

Everyone will ultimate out. A lot of those furloughed jobs aren’t coming back so they’ll be out on their arses.

But those with the most should help take most of the burden. That’s how tax works anyway

But why? You could make the case that those who benefited the most should pay it back?

This is a mess of the government's making - biggest fall in GDP and near the top of the death league.

Every penny of increased tax will be a penny of expenditure I forgo - they can do one.

No. That’s not how society should function for something imposed on them.

Those who will be affected by it least should give the most.

[anonymous-user]

p1stonhead said:

Everyone will ultimate out. A lot of those furloughed jobs aren’t coming back so they’ll be out on their arses.

But those with the most should help take most of the burden. That’s how tax works anyway

We already do

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

75% of income tax is paid by the top 50% of earners.
12% is paid by the top 1% of earners.

[ant1973]

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

The increases unveiled by Rishi Sunak will bring the UK tax burden up to levels not seen for half a century, according to a report from the Office for Budget Responsibility that was issued alongside the Budget.

The OBR report said: “The tax rises announced in this Budget increase the tax burden from 34.0 per cent to 35.0 per cent of GDP in 2025-26, its highest level since Roy Jenkins was chancellor in the late 1960s.”

It said that half of the increase was due to the 6 percentage point increase in the corporation tax rate to 25 per cent.

Jenkins was chancellor from 1967 to 1970 in the Labour government of Harold Wilson.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ab638c8-d5f7-4e42-a786...

No biggie, I guess...

How did you expect this to be paid for?

The rises for self employed seem quite reasonable to me (and I’ll suffer some of them myself).

A broadly based tax increase that affected most people? This is the thin end of the wedge. All of this simply encourages Karen to believe that lockdowns are cost free (for them).

You want poorer people to pay more?

It doesn’t kick in to anyone unless they’re making £50k profits....

Why shouldn't everyone pay? I didn't agree with lockdown and have had zero benefit from the vast support provided to employees?

Everyone will ultimate out. A lot of those furloughed jobs aren’t coming back so they’ll be out on their arses.

But those with the most should help take most of the burden. That’s how tax works anyway

But why? You could make the case that those who benefited the most should pay it back?

This is a mess of the government's making - biggest fall in GDP and near the top of the death league.

Every penny of increased tax will be a penny of expenditure I forgo - they can do one.

No. That’s not how society should function for something imposed on them.

Those who will be affected by it least should give the most.

Imposed by popular consent I think you mean. Lock us up, give us free stuff, and now make someone else pay. Good one. I will be paying no more tax come what may. So there's your cause and effect in action. Reduced economic activity incoming. I will be 50 in 2023. Think I will spend a day a week doing something else.

[p1stonhead]

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

p1stonhead said:

ant1973 said:

The increases unveiled by Rishi Sunak will bring the UK tax burden up to levels not seen for half a century, according to a report from the Office for Budget Responsibility that was issued alongside the Budget.

The OBR report said: “The tax rises announced in this Budget increase the tax burden from 34.0 per cent to 35.0 per cent of GDP in 2025-26, its highest level since Roy Jenkins was chancellor in the late 1960s.”

It said that half of the increase was due to the 6 percentage point increase in the corporation tax rate to 25 per cent.

Jenkins was chancellor from 1967 to 1970 in the Labour government of Harold Wilson.

https://www.ft.com/content/7ab638c8-d5f7-4e42-a786...

No biggie, I guess...

How did you expect this to be paid for?

The rises for self employed seem quite reasonable to me (and I’ll suffer some of them myself).

A broadly based tax increase that affected most people? This is the thin end of the wedge. All of this simply encourages Karen to believe that lockdowns are cost free (for them).

You want poorer people to pay more?

It doesn’t kick in to anyone unless they’re making £50k profits....

Why shouldn't everyone pay? I didn't agree with lockdown and have had zero benefit from the vast support provided to employees?

Everyone will ultimate out. A lot of those furloughed jobs aren’t coming back so they’ll be out on their arses.

But those with the most should help take most of the burden. That’s how tax works anyway

But why? You could make the case that those who benefited the most should pay it back?

This is a mess of the government's making - biggest fall in GDP and near the top of the death league.

Every penny of increased tax will be a penny of expenditure I forgo - they can do one.

No. That’s not how society should function for something imposed on them.

Those who will be affected by it least should give the most.

Imposed by popular consent I think you mean. Lock us up, give us free stuff, and now make someone else pay. Good one. I will be paying no more tax come what may. So there's your cause and effect in action. Reduced economic activity incoming. I will be 50 in 2023. Think I will spend a day a week doing something else.

You martyr

[Graveworm]

soofsayer said:

We already do

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

75% of income tax is paid by the top 50% of earners.
12% is paid by the top 1% of earners.

That's earnings not tax the tax burden is much higher than that.
The top 50 percent earn 75% but pay over 90 percent.
The top 1% earn 12% but pay 27% of all income tax.
43% of adults pay no income tax at all. So those figures only represent the remainder; any income tax increases only directly impact 57 percent of adults.

Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 3rd March 18:54

[ant1973]

p1stonhead said:

You martyr

Not me. I will be busy doing something else. That's the thing about democracy (for now), I can decide how much tax I actually pay depending on how hard I work.

[johnboy1975]

djc206 said:

johnboy1975 said:

So let them trade freely?

Re Aviation I agree. Targeted furlough.

Furlough for all means, as I understand it, if your work drops off seasonally in the summer to 50% (as it might in certain industries every summer), you can furlough 50% of your staff for a 3 month holiday. Indeed, if you dont, your competitors gain an advantage, so you are practically 'forced' to

Well yes letting them trade freely would be the sensible thing but that’s not the path the government have chosen so the country still needs the CJRS.

Which industries die a death in summer? Serious question btw I’m not being flippant.

I don't know either, guessing window companies, boiler companies, insulation companies and the like?

Plus you must get 1000s of people working in a smallish office who take paid/unpaid time off over summer to look after kids etc. If the company were minded, and provided they could do it fairly, they could just use furlough.

Spin it around, why should an engineering firm or solicitors (or one of a vast number of trades that has been able to operate pretty much throughout) qualify for furlough over a year after covid hit, and a good month since the NHS ceased to be in danger. Then add another 6 months. Doesn't make sense to me?

And to add re furlough, the idea of furlough AIUI is to protect well skilled jobs where there would be difficulty in finding suitable candidates if starting from scratch. (So pilots and the like - fine). Wheras it seems to be being used much more generally to hide the jobless figures, and to pay these people way more than JSA. There's not going to be a shortage of applicants for bar work (one post attracted over 1000 applicants) so I guess I question the implementation of it in general.

[ant1973]

Graveworm said:

soofsayer said:

We already do

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

75% of income tax is paid by the top 50% of earners.
12% is paid by the top 1% of earners.

That's earnings not tax the tax burden is much higher than that.
The top 50 percent earn 75% but pay over 90 percent.
The top 1% earn 12% but pay 27% of all income tax.
43% of adults pay no income tax at all. So those figures only represent the remainder; any income tax increases only directly impact 57 percent of adults.

Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 3rd March 18:54

You only have to look at the tone and tenor of the budget thread in general to establish that most people are happy to pay more tax. And happier still if someone else has to be more tax still. There's been a real shift in the last few years. Big tax is back in vogue. It's a generational thing. Most people have forgotten the lessons of the 70s, the high taxes and all that went with it. The last 12 months pretty conclusively establishes that most folk are comfortable with a large, intrusive state. I can only say that I am against that but now clearly very much in the minority. Still, that's democracy I suppose. Will be interesting to revisit the matter in say five years time.

[Thin White Duke]

grumbledoak said:

Zoobeef said:

I just won't be voting. Whoever gets in, who gives a fk.

This is the only thing they will notice. If we all stop pretending that our vote matters they will have to stop pretending they have a mandate.

I've always voted, not so much because of the old "people fought two world wars for your right to vote" but simply because I believed it was the best thing to do. Not voting seemed like a waste of time even if the parties available didn't have much between them.

I've always voted Tory because I think they're the best of a bad bunch.

I used to work with a bloke who said he didn't vote as he had no confidence in any party. He said there should be an option on the ballot paper of "No Confidence." I told him he could spoil his ballot paper which I believe is counted.

Anyway he once told me that the best thing the country could do to send a clear message to the establishment that none of them are worth the vote is for no one to vote. Not one single person.

I now think he was right.

I really do feel politically at sea. If I vote in May it will be for an independent or no one. I doubt I will vote mainstream again. If I vote at the next GE it will probably be for either whatever vehicle Farage is piloting at the time or Fox.

[MG CHRIS]

Thin White Duke said:

grumbledoak said:

Zoobeef said:

I just won't be voting. Whoever gets in, who gives a fk.

This is the only thing they will notice. If we all stop pretending that our vote matters they will have to stop pretending they have a mandate.

I've always voted, not so much because of the old "people fought two world wars for your right to vote" but simply because I believed it was the best thing to do. Not voting seemed like a waste of time even if the parties available didn't have much between them.

I've always voted Tory because I think they're the best of a bad bunch.

I used to work with a bloke who said he didn't vote as he had no confidence in any party. He said there should be an option on the ballot paper of "No Confidence." I told him he could spoil his ballot paper which I believe is counted.

Anyway he once told me that the best thing the country could do to send a clear message to the establishment that none of them are worth the vote is for no one to vote. Not one single person.

I now think he was right.

I really do feel politically at sea. If I vote in May it will be for an independent or no one. I doubt I will vote mainstream again. If I vote at the next GE it will probably be for either whatever vehicle Farage is piloting at the time or Fox.

Yep im having a really decision on the choice between voting for the tories or the abolish the welsh assembly party. But whatever my vote in wales labour will get in so its almost pointless.

[johnboy1975]

Thin White Duke said:

grumbledoak said:

Zoobeef said:

I just won't be voting. Whoever gets in, who gives a fk.

This is the only thing they will notice. If we all stop pretending that our vote matters they will have to stop pretending they have a mandate.

I've always voted, not so much because of the old "people fought two world wars for your right to vote" but simply because I believed it was the best thing to do. Not voting seemed like a waste of time even if the parties available didn't have much between them.

I've always voted Tory because I think they're the best of a bad bunch.

I used to work with a bloke who said he didn't vote as he had no confidence in any party. He said there should be an option on the ballot paper of "No Confidence." I told him he could spoil his ballot paper which I believe is counted.

Anyway he once told me that the best thing the country could do to send a clear message to the establishment that none of them are worth the vote is for no one to vote. Not one single person.

I now think he was right.

I really do feel politically at sea. If I vote in May it will be for an independent or no one. I doubt I will vote mainstream again. If I vote at the next GE it will probably be for either whatever vehicle Farage is piloting at the time or Fox.

All well and good - but the effect will either be to let the Tories back in, or let Labour in.

Unless literally (almost) everyone spoiled their vote or didn't vote, but I cant see that happening. What was the film about it, something like "none of the above"? (Any good?)

I'm not so much angry about the 400b spent, I'm angry at what it hasn't been spent on over the past 10 years because "we can't afford it". (Prescriptions, NHS pay rises, University grants to name but 3, at least 2 of those Scotland somehow find the money for). Leaving the EU was span as an extra 10b via not paying our subs. Someone mentioned the tooing and froing about spending 80b on HS2. Its all been dwarfed by covid.

[grumbledoak]

Thin White Duke said:

...
Anyway he once told me that the best thing the country could do to send a clear message to the establishment that none of them are worth the vote is for no one to vote. Not one single person.

I now think he was right.

I really do feel politically at sea. If I vote in May it will be for an independent or no one. I doubt I will vote mainstream again. If I vote at the next GE it will probably be for either whatever vehicle Farage is piloting at the time or Fox.

Yup.

I remember one female Labour MP on video pissing herself laughing at Corbyn’s loss. Win or lose, they don’t care. By playing the game we accept the rules and the consequences.

We’ve already seen what they’ll do with Farage.