CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 10)

[R Mutt]

Have I got a tin foil hat on or does

A) the current narrative dictate that the vaccine confers a greater degree of immunity than immunity acquired post infection (this is completely separate from the risks OF infection) and

B) the science not support this suggestion?

Strawman some may say but no one I speak to seems to accept my stance that I do not require the vaccine right now having recovered from a mild case of COVID 2 months ago. I takes quite a bit of evidence on antibodies (present 11 months after infection in the case of 1 friend) to have anyone reluctantly accept my position.

This seems ironically like misinformation from the government and/ or media on their part.

[p1stonhead]

cymatty said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/notdred/status/13688985...

Interesting if true, suggests we may have seen the worst mutations already. Bad news for the vaccine companies (joke)

Virus’ tend to get weaker as the mutate don’t they?

Good news indeed if true.

[tigamilla]

R Mutt said:

On Twitter today:

A bedwetter who said I'd be mad to go on an outdoor date during a pandemic, crying because she got COVID from her family bubble and has lost work as a result

George Monbiot blaming the government for letting him get long COVID

The cognitive dissonance is sublime.

Ha! What an excellent example of classic twitter under the George Monbiot tweet - a female marathon runner with long covid made herself known. She also knows under 30s who have long covid (one of whom has apparently even lost half his eyesight according to her, plus she also managed to get the words "toxic attitude" in)... literally ticks every Covid doomer box. 10/10 BS.

[basherX]

Zoobeef said:

Given a hell of alot of people are having the vaccine "just in case I need it to go on holiday", it's in the best interest of the government to keep the passport stories running.
I imagine it'll be dropped by the end of the year once most have been vaccinated (a damn site more than would have been if the government just kept pushing the message that there will be no negative effects to not having it).

SAGE is full of behavioural scientists remember.

Edited by Zoobeef on Monday 8th March 13:17

I think it's this. They know how much uproar it would cause and they (should) know that it'll be technical clusterfk but I strongly suspect that they're keeping the music playing because they understand that the mere suggestion it's coming will incentivise the undecided

[R Mutt]

basherX said:

Zoobeef said:

Given a hell of alot of people are having the vaccine "just in case I need it to go on holiday", it's in the best interest of the government to keep the passport stories running.
I imagine it'll be dropped by the end of the year once most have been vaccinated (a damn site more than would have been if the government just kept pushing the message that there will be no negative effects to not having it).

SAGE is full of behavioural scientists remember.

Edited by Zoobeef on Monday 8th March 13:17

I think it's this. They know how much uproar it would cause and they (should) know that it'll be technical clusterfk but I strongly suspect that they're keeping the music playing because they understand that the mere suggestion it's coming will incentivise the undecided

Manipulation at every step. There now seems to be a greater acceptance that the vaccine does not stop infection which has lead to greater reinforcement of the message over masks in schools. This isn't accidental.

[johnboy1975]

p1stonhead said:

cymatty said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/notdred/status/13688985...

Interesting if true, suggests we may have seen the worst mutations already. Bad news for the vaccine companies (joke)

Virus’ tend to get weaker as the mutate don’t they?

Good news indeed if true.

Alternatively, weaker viruses dominate because you self isolate if you are properly ill, whilst you go out and spread the mild variant. During this social experiment of lockdown, we isolate for every occurrence. Equals milder strain losing its advantage. Another unintended consequence?

DaveV6 said:

Nice article https://thecritic.co.uk/mutant-variations-and-the-...

(Whole thing is worth a read)

said:

Non-pharmaceutical interventions have essentially levelled the playing field. If everyone is staying at home, regardless of how unwell they might feel, then the less virulent variants lose their advantage. Moreover, it could be argued that we are not levelling the playing field at all, but rather tipping the scales in favour of the more virulent variants. After all, while those with mild symptoms are confined to their homes, those with severe symptoms are forced to leave their homes and transition to a crowded environment full of vulnerable people. Hospital.

Edited by johnboy1975 on Monday 8th March 15:53

[johnboy1975]

tigamilla said:

R Mutt said:

On Twitter today:

A bedwetter who said I'd be mad to go on an outdoor date during a pandemic, crying because she got COVID from her family bubble and has lost work as a result

George Monbiot blaming the government for letting him get long COVID

The cognitive dissonance is sublime.

Ha! What an excellent example of classic twitter under the George Monbiot tweet - a female marathon runner with long covid made herself known. She also knows under 30s who have long covid (one of whom has apparently even lost half his eyesight according to her, plus she also managed to get the words "toxic attitude" in)... literally ticks every Covid doomer box. 10/10 BS.

Is she sure its not a cataract, which has been left untreated because "only covid matters"?

[isaldiri]

bodhi said:

Just thinking about this - is it not the case that even though flu hasn't been around for 12 months or so, our immune systems will still know roughly how to deal with it through T-Cell response from previous infections / vaccination? So whilst there is every chance of it being a worse flu season next winter, unless there is a "novel" flu virus going round that completely evades the protection we already have we should be ok? Or is my understanding a little simplistic?

Honestly from what I've been reading it's not the effect on the adult population's immune system we should be concerned about - it's the kids who have been kept off school for months unable to socialise with their friends. Growing up seems to be when the bulk of the immune system gets "trained", through all the bugs going round school, getting dirty playing etc etc. Wrapping the kids in cotton wool for that long surely must be affecting their development - not just socially and academically, but medically as well in terms of protection against bugs they aren't building up.

Maybe it's just my experience from growing up, but it seems like we are storing up and fairly nasty RSV - or even worse Epstein-Barr outbreak in the kids we've been trying to protect? I had Glandular Fever when I was 9, and I wasn't really fully fit again for 18 months, then had another relapse at University, costing me a year. A wave of that spreading round the country doesn't really bear thinking about imo.

I think you need the likes of rtb or mx5b or even Dr z) to comment definitively on this rather than me I think. One of them I forget who actually did say very early he thought the winter would not have a lot of flu as no.one was travelling and we had a fair degree of immunity from last year's variants anyway so that plus a good degree of general social distancing perhaps was why flu has fallen off so much.

I'd guess from the bits of medical literature I skim read that t cells as you say will help but won't preclude a bad flu season more because a variant that we either aren't used to or have not guessed from vaccination as well might emerge.

Bad flu seasons still can happen in years when we have been 'normal' I guess after all. Francois balloux in Twitter I think you do follow has suggested flu might be a bit more of an issue in future and he's someone I think has been very reasonable throughout this whole mess.

Am a little more doubtful about the theory about kids necessarily being more at risk not having been exposed to general bugs and all though I have to admit. That gets suggested quite a bit but I'm not sure it necessarily makes a meaningful difference. Perhaps numbers affected at one time but not I think (and I stress I think as I'm purely guessing) in severity.

[n3il123]

Is there not a debate scheduled for today (?) about the vaccine passport as a result of one petitions?

[Zoobeef]

johnboy1975 said:

Is she sure its not a cataract, which has been left untreated because "only covid matters"?

Best hope it's not both eyes as the NHS will only pay for one now.

[isaldiri]

R Mutt said:

Have I got a tin foil hat on or does

A) the current narrative dictate that the vaccine confers a greater degree of immunity than immunity acquired post infection (this is completely separate from the risks OF infection) and

B) the science not support this suggestion?

Strawman some may say but no one I speak to seems to accept my stance that I do not require the vaccine right now having recovered from a mild case of COVID 2 months ago. I takes quite a bit of evidence on antibodies (present 11 months after infection in the case of 1 friend) to have anyone reluctantly accept my position.

This seems ironically like misinformation from the government and/ or media on their part.

I think it depends. Antibody titers do look to be very high in vaccine response, mostly higher than say mild/asymptomatic covid infection for example.

However vaccine immunity is very much spike protein focused so far while infection immunity is supposed to be much more broad based (whatever that means in egghead terms). I've assumed that means infection recovery is more likely to give a higher level of protection against a bigger mutation (if/when that occurs) even if it's possibly less effective against the original virus (or close copy) and probably longer lasting overall protection.....

[johnboy1975]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I managed with only 1 eye for 10 months. No biggie

(2 is a different kettle of fish)

And Zoobeef, that's shocking. I remember you mentioning a few days ago. Do you know if that's a NHS blanket policy? I was under the impression if I developed a cataract in the other eye, it would be treated in the same way?

[R Mutt]

tigamilla said:

R Mutt said:

On Twitter today:

A bedwetter who said I'd be mad to go on an outdoor date during a pandemic, crying because she got COVID from her family bubble and has lost work as a result

George Monbiot blaming the government for letting him get long COVID

The cognitive dissonance is sublime.

Ha! What an excellent example of classic twitter under the George Monbiot tweet - a female marathon runner with long covid made herself known. She also knows under 30s who have long covid (one of whom has apparently even lost half his eyesight according to her, plus she also managed to get the words "toxic attitude" in)... literally ticks every Covid doomer box. 10/10 BS.

I know of a few such cases but the irony is that's a pretty poor example of what it's intended to illustrate, that that normal healthy people are equally as affected by COVID. Athletes are going to suffer in a different way, where they are regularly subject to fatigue, or feel the impact of prolonged downtime from COVID recovery, or even just from lockdowns. I'd imagine their immune response will differ too.

[Carrot]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Easy to solve though, with everyone having the fashionable long covid right now, just place all the appointment booking terminals at the top of some stairs...

[CAH706]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

[johnboy1975]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I dont have a 2nd cataract, it's zoobeef's nan with 2 (IIRC). Is private open again now, or is it still seconded to NHS? (Aka being paid to keep empty)

[johnboy1975]

Boris has just said "people can from today meet outside 1 on 1 for the first time in months"

PH bullst detector fact check says:

Completely false. You have been able to do that throughout. The change is now you can take a hot drink with you, and sit down. Legally (let that sink in)



So, deliberate misinformation? Hard to believe he's not aware of this

Edited by johnboy1975 on Monday 8th March 16:15

[75Black]

The press briefing is on COVID, what does the BBC journalist ask Boris about? Harry and Meghan...ffs

[johnboy1975]

75Black said:

The press briefing is on COVID, what does the BBC journalist ask Boris about? Harry and Meghan...ffs

Indeed.

Does Nick Triggle ever do the BBC question?

[anonymous-user]

CAH706 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

65 is the figure just announced by Boris at the briefing.