Discussion
Jasandjules said:
98elise said:
No they don't, but they do believe that on balance scientists and doctors are to be believed rather than Facebook.
Doctors like this? http://enformtk.u-aizu.ac.jp/howard/gcep_dr_vaness...Crackpots will be crackpots.
I know this plays towards your leanings (law/antivax). Have fund with it.
That wasn't a typo.
monkfish1 said:
deckster said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
It certainly is.
I would call it a healthy scepticism when someone finds a problem I didn't know I had and proposes a solution involving something I didn't want, says it's the only way out of a situation they control and then creates a sense of drama and urgency which is out of all proportion to the scale of the problem even as they have described it. When there's political power and billions of pounds flying around at the same time it does nothing to ease my doubts. Even embellishing their message with rituals and guilt doesn't quite get through my scepticism somehow. And the billionaires, corporations, royals and politicians of the WEF may even be doing more harm than good to their cause. Their interests are not my interests
I don't want to believe this is a major problem, and I value freedom, autonomy and making my own decisions. I don't want to be part of a new belief system or "new normal." Therefore it would take some extremely strong evidence to convince me that all this was worth it, and being in fairly good health and not prone to getting sick it doesn't seem like a big concern for me. Which I admit is probably a bias towards not seeing this as a problem.
Why do you want this to be so important? What void does covid fill for you?
Firstly, thank you for the serious answer to what I will freely admit was a flippant set of questions.I would call it a healthy scepticism when someone finds a problem I didn't know I had and proposes a solution involving something I didn't want, says it's the only way out of a situation they control and then creates a sense of drama and urgency which is out of all proportion to the scale of the problem even as they have described it. When there's political power and billions of pounds flying around at the same time it does nothing to ease my doubts. Even embellishing their message with rituals and guilt doesn't quite get through my scepticism somehow. And the billionaires, corporations, royals and politicians of the WEF may even be doing more harm than good to their cause. Their interests are not my interests
I don't want to believe this is a major problem, and I value freedom, autonomy and making my own decisions. I don't want to be part of a new belief system or "new normal." Therefore it would take some extremely strong evidence to convince me that all this was worth it, and being in fairly good health and not prone to getting sick it doesn't seem like a big concern for me. Which I admit is probably a bias towards not seeing this as a problem.
Why do you want this to be so important? What void does covid fill for you?
But (unsurprisingly) I simply don't agree with your premise. You are working from a position of: this isn't important. I am being lied to. I don't trust these people. And then you're creating a narrative that fits those preconceptions.
Whereas the facts are very clear: millions of people have died. A significant proportion of the world's population has been infected. The virus is mutating, and continues to mutate. This isn't just going to go away any time soon.
Having freedom and making your own decisions is clearly important. But having your own facts isn't; and building your own reality based on your own facts is not helpful.
Do you trust them?
CraigyMc said:
Jasandjules said:
98elise said:
No they don't, but they do believe that on balance scientists and doctors are to be believed rather than Facebook.
Doctors like this? http://enformtk.u-aizu.ac.jp/howard/gcep_dr_vaness...Crackpots will be crackpots.
I know this plays towards your leanings (law/antivax). Have fund with it.
That wasn't a typo.
CraigyMc
I just don't see the basic logic supported by the data. And I'm not unfamiliar with data or the various techniques to present data in a way which maximises its impact and underline ones message.
It is very important, as I'm sure you know, to look at data in its wider context and very easy even for seasoned professionals to focus on particular indicators at the expense of other important considerations. Something evidenced by any number of companies that have run themselves into the ground chasing a higher share price or undermined their long term viability to bolster this years profits.
Data is a starting point and not an end in itself.
If it is so deadly why do they need to inflate the death toll?
And if lockdowns are effective why is there so little correlation between the severity of lockdown and infection or death rates across countries or US states?
And why the paranoia about misinformation? It isn't like the world is hostile to its own health, yet from early on we have seen a furious attempt to marginalise any criticism of the handling of this and discredited respected scientists who raise concerns. Along with a hasty cobbling together of "evidence" in support of the policies implemented.
I think isolation of vulnerable people might make sense but should still be their own choice. It is perfectly valid for a sickly 80 year old to decide that Christmas with loved ones when it might be your last anyway is preferable to Christmas via video call even with a higher risk.
If you want to pick emotive stories I'm sure that in last months death toll of all causes were many elderly people who spent their final months of life alone feeling frightened and forgotten.
Health capacity is a consideration but the resources that have been ploughed indiscriminately into paying healthy people to stay at home and propping up viable businesses forced to cease trading could have done wonders for health capacity if better applied. I know they couldn't have trained more doctors and nurses in the time frame but I feel sure they could have been better deployed.
I am in no way anti vaccine. On any measure vaccines against polio, TB and other nasty illnesses have been an unalloyed good thing. They are not a panacea.
To say vaccines in general are an unalloyed good is dogmatic and even if there is no obvious downside I am not a fan of unnecessary medication or dogmatic policy. Vaccines are a very useful tool, but they carry some risk and some cost. It is always worth asking if they justify these.
I don't think the covid vaccines pose any great risk in and of themselves, though I think the haste, money and political capital invested in them increases that risk to some degree.
Lastly, I am curious and suspicious about what drove this sudden panic mode.
Panic and haste are notoriously bad ingredients in any decision making process. We had in place a fairly well developed scheme specifically drawn up to deal with a respiratory disease pandemic, developed methodically and rationally by health professionals and scientists not in a crisis. It expressly aimed to avoid panic and maintain continuity. Why was this abruptly thrown out last year in favour of this approach based around panic and shutdown?
It isn't really too tin foil hat to think that a mixture of greed and vanity in those circumstances has led to bad decisions and the same forces have led to a doubling down on those decisions ever since.
As far as I can see the way out of this is to reevaluate with cool heads (a plurality of heads, with different ideas in them) appraised of all the knowledge we now have, just what are we dealing with and how can we best minimise the damage of the whole exercise across the whole of our society, with a view to a range of metrics.
I just don't see the basic logic supported by the data. And I'm not unfamiliar with data or the various techniques to present data in a way which maximises its impact and underline ones message.
It is very important, as I'm sure you know, to look at data in its wider context and very easy even for seasoned professionals to focus on particular indicators at the expense of other important considerations. Something evidenced by any number of companies that have run themselves into the ground chasing a higher share price or undermined their long term viability to bolster this years profits.
Data is a starting point and not an end in itself.
If it is so deadly why do they need to inflate the death toll?
And if lockdowns are effective why is there so little correlation between the severity of lockdown and infection or death rates across countries or US states?
And why the paranoia about misinformation? It isn't like the world is hostile to its own health, yet from early on we have seen a furious attempt to marginalise any criticism of the handling of this and discredited respected scientists who raise concerns. Along with a hasty cobbling together of "evidence" in support of the policies implemented.
I think isolation of vulnerable people might make sense but should still be their own choice. It is perfectly valid for a sickly 80 year old to decide that Christmas with loved ones when it might be your last anyway is preferable to Christmas via video call even with a higher risk.
If you want to pick emotive stories I'm sure that in last months death toll of all causes were many elderly people who spent their final months of life alone feeling frightened and forgotten.
Health capacity is a consideration but the resources that have been ploughed indiscriminately into paying healthy people to stay at home and propping up viable businesses forced to cease trading could have done wonders for health capacity if better applied. I know they couldn't have trained more doctors and nurses in the time frame but I feel sure they could have been better deployed.
I am in no way anti vaccine. On any measure vaccines against polio, TB and other nasty illnesses have been an unalloyed good thing. They are not a panacea.
To say vaccines in general are an unalloyed good is dogmatic and even if there is no obvious downside I am not a fan of unnecessary medication or dogmatic policy. Vaccines are a very useful tool, but they carry some risk and some cost. It is always worth asking if they justify these.
I don't think the covid vaccines pose any great risk in and of themselves, though I think the haste, money and political capital invested in them increases that risk to some degree.
Lastly, I am curious and suspicious about what drove this sudden panic mode.
Panic and haste are notoriously bad ingredients in any decision making process. We had in place a fairly well developed scheme specifically drawn up to deal with a respiratory disease pandemic, developed methodically and rationally by health professionals and scientists not in a crisis. It expressly aimed to avoid panic and maintain continuity. Why was this abruptly thrown out last year in favour of this approach based around panic and shutdown?
It isn't really too tin foil hat to think that a mixture of greed and vanity in those circumstances has led to bad decisions and the same forces have led to a doubling down on those decisions ever since.
As far as I can see the way out of this is to reevaluate with cool heads (a plurality of heads, with different ideas in them) appraised of all the knowledge we now have, just what are we dealing with and how can we best minimise the damage of the whole exercise across the whole of our society, with a view to a range of metrics.
CraigyMc said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Why do you want this to be so important? What void does covid fill for you?
I know you were asking someone else, but my extreme interest in this is all about how to get my life back to a point where I'm able to do the things I want (restaurants, climbing, karting, motorsport, gym, gigs, films, friends and family, foreign trips), as soon as possible while not killing and disabling a huge number of people.It's a bit like asking a prisoner how long until they get released. Tomorrow isn't soon enough. I keep reading folk talking about "lockdown people wanting to keep it going" while shaking my head and wondering how the mental health is of these folk.
Basic logic goes like this:
- Uncontrolled spread of C19 overwhelms the medical systems of the world with those who get it bad.
- Uncontrolled spread of C19 kills lots of people, even if their local medical systems aren't overwhelmed. Most are old, but plenty are not.
- Uncontrolled spread maims lots of people. Long Covid is a real thing. Plenty of these are young people.
- Masks & distancing limit the exposure to others, this limits the spread of C19.
- Once they've had time to be effective after the dose, vaccines limit the spread.
- Once they've had time to be effective after the dose, vaccines limit the damage C19 causes to those who catch C19.
- Test & Trace help identify outbreaks of C19
- Isolation of infected people helps limit the spread, whether that's people travelling into the UK or people who have caught it in the course of day-to-day.
The fact that none of the antivax stuff is accepted by most people, and that most of the vaccination news is pretty good is the reason why I'm so pro-vaccination. I have friends and family who work in the NHS. They are all of the same mind.
I read the news and I listen to politicians, but my opinions are formed from the sources, these are typically scientific papers rather than press releases.
Like many people on here, I deal with data on a day-to-day basis for my work; it's not like I'm learning to interpret graphs and tables just for this conversation.
What about the WEF and Mr Schwab with his clearly posted agenda? Things are all unfolding to facilitate this narrative.
wisbech said:
Saudi Arabia has announced Covid vaccination will be required for Hajj...
So, no jab no pilgrimage
That's very interesting, from a point of view of a culture that has what happens to the followers being dependent on the will of another(really not trying to stir a hornet's nest here So, no jab no pilgrimage
). But bringing together 1m people from across the World into one place is a pretty big test.Craigy said
“Basic logic goes like this:
Uncontrolled spread of C19 overwhelms the medical systems of the world with those who get it bad.
Uncontrolled spread of C19 kills lots of people, even if their local medical systems aren't overwhelmed. Most are old, but plenty are not.
Uncontrolled spread maims lots of people. Long Covid is a real thing. Plenty of these are young people.
Masks & distancing limit the exposure to others, this limits the spread of C19.
Once they've had time to be effective after the dose, vaccines limit the spread.
Once they've had time to be effective after the dose, vaccines limit the damage C19 causes to those who catch C19.
Test & Trace help identify outbreaks of C19
Isolation of infected people helps limit the spread, whether that's people travelling into the UK or people who have caught it in the course of day-to-day.“
A few questions arise from this
- define “plenty not old” in percentage terms of all the deaths
- how long does long covid go on for and again define most are young people
-has test and trace actually worked?
-how do masks limit exposure?
-
“Basic logic goes like this:
Uncontrolled spread of C19 overwhelms the medical systems of the world with those who get it bad.
Uncontrolled spread of C19 kills lots of people, even if their local medical systems aren't overwhelmed. Most are old, but plenty are not.
Uncontrolled spread maims lots of people. Long Covid is a real thing. Plenty of these are young people.
Masks & distancing limit the exposure to others, this limits the spread of C19.
Once they've had time to be effective after the dose, vaccines limit the spread.
Once they've had time to be effective after the dose, vaccines limit the damage C19 causes to those who catch C19.
Test & Trace help identify outbreaks of C19
Isolation of infected people helps limit the spread, whether that's people travelling into the UK or people who have caught it in the course of day-to-day.“
A few questions arise from this
- define “plenty not old” in percentage terms of all the deaths
- how long does long covid go on for and again define most are young people
-has test and trace actually worked?
-how do masks limit exposure?
-
tonyvid said:
wisbech said:
Saudi Arabia has announced Covid vaccination will be required for Hajj...
So, no jab no pilgrimage
That's very interesting, from a point of view of a culture that has what happens to the followers being dependent on the will of another(really not trying to stir a hornet's nest here So, no jab no pilgrimage
). But bringing together 1m people from across the World into one place is a pretty big test.•• Trust in Allah But Tie Your Camel ••
One day Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) noticed a Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it.
He asked the Bedouin, “Why don’t you tie down your camel?”
The Bedouin answered, “I placed my trust in Allah.”
At that, the Prophet (PBUH) said, “Tie your camel and place your trust in Allah” (Tirmidhi)
The lesson from this hadith is that we need to use all resources available to us to solve our problems, and then trust Allah for the outcome as “Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.” (Qur'an 13.11)
XCP said:
I had no idea who the WEF and Schwab were. A quick check led to some very weird nonsense.
If it is "weird nonsense" then we all have nothing to fear. You had "no idea" who they are. I suspect there are millions in the UK who have not heard of this outfit. It would be nice if the WEF are just an impotent fringe organisation with no power and no mandate.. Unfortunately it would appear that this is not the case. How people view Covid and everything that surrounds it is entirely up to them. I think the WEF, what it stands for and what it wants implemented should be taken very seriously.
One needs to be objective and look at things with an open mind. Many posters on PH are questioning how things are playing out and in what direction we are all heading. These people are invariably labelled tin foil nut jobs by another contingent.
I think we are all in grave danger. We are clearly being lied to. History is doomed to repeat itself unfortunately. I am not going to flippantly brush everything off and hope for the best. I'm very concerned and am now making plans.
Edited by W11PEL on Wednesday 3rd March 11:14
Edited by W11PEL on Wednesday 3rd March 11:16
W11PEL said:
If it is "weird nonsense" then we all have nothing to fear. You had "no idea" who they are. I suspect there are millions in the UK who have not heard of this outfit. It would be nice if the WEF are just an impotent fringe organisation with no power and no mandate.. Unfortunately it would appear that this is not the case.
How people view Covid and everything that surrounds it is entirely up to them. I think the WEF, what it stands for and what it wants implemented should be taken very seriously.
One needs to be objective and look at things with an open mind. Many posters on PH are questioning how things are playing out and in what direction we are all heading. These people are invariably labelled tin foil nut jobs by another contingent.
I think we are all in grave danger. We are clearly being lied to. History is doomed to repeat itself unfortunately. I am not going to flippantly brush everything off and hope for the best. I'm very concerned and am now making plans.
Dude. Step away from the internet, seriously. It's bad for you.How people view Covid and everything that surrounds it is entirely up to them. I think the WEF, what it stands for and what it wants implemented should be taken very seriously.
One needs to be objective and look at things with an open mind. Many posters on PH are questioning how things are playing out and in what direction we are all heading. These people are invariably labelled tin foil nut jobs by another contingent.
I think we are all in grave danger. We are clearly being lied to. History is doomed to repeat itself unfortunately. I am not going to flippantly brush everything off and hope for the best. I'm very concerned and am now making plans.
I know it's difficult at the moment, but go outside. Take a walk in the open air. Buy a bike and get yourself properly knackered of an afternoon. Take up knitting. Just do something other than watching conspiracy crap on youtube.
There is no global conspiracy. The WEF is just a group of CEOs and celebs backslapping and trying to sell stuff to each other. There is no shadowy cabal taking over the world for their own malign ends. Bill Gates is not injecting you with 5G nanobots.
The world has enough problems without people inventing bogeymen.
g4ry13 said:
Lily the Pink said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Lily the Pink said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
To some extent this could be dependent on the job in question.
Not sure I would be too happy to be boarding an air liner if the crew, did not have the necessary AME certificates to show they were physically sound enough to carry out the job to the destination, which would include not having Covid 19.
Would a negative test result suffice ?Not sure I would be too happy to be boarding an air liner if the crew, did not have the necessary AME certificates to show they were physically sound enough to carry out the job to the destination, which would include not having Covid 19.
Since few flights last more than a day, even if they did develop Covid 19 immediately after having the test, they should still remain functional for at least the duration of the flight.
No one wants to hear the announcement from flight attendant. `Excuse me ladies, and gentlemen, but do we have a pilot on board?'
deckster said:
W11PEL said:
If it is "weird nonsense" then we all have nothing to fear. You had "no idea" who they are. I suspect there are millions in the UK who have not heard of this outfit. It would be nice if the WEF are just an impotent fringe organisation with no power and no mandate.. Unfortunately it would appear that this is not the case.
How people view Covid and everything that surrounds it is entirely up to them. I think the WEF, what it stands for and what it wants implemented should be taken very seriously.
One needs to be objective and look at things with an open mind. Many posters on PH are questioning how things are playing out and in what direction we are all heading. These people are invariably labelled tin foil nut jobs by another contingent.
I think we are all in grave danger. We are clearly being lied to. History is doomed to repeat itself unfortunately. I am not going to flippantly brush everything off and hope for the best. I'm very concerned and am now making plans.
Dude. Step away from the internet, seriously. It's bad for you.How people view Covid and everything that surrounds it is entirely up to them. I think the WEF, what it stands for and what it wants implemented should be taken very seriously.
One needs to be objective and look at things with an open mind. Many posters on PH are questioning how things are playing out and in what direction we are all heading. These people are invariably labelled tin foil nut jobs by another contingent.
I think we are all in grave danger. We are clearly being lied to. History is doomed to repeat itself unfortunately. I am not going to flippantly brush everything off and hope for the best. I'm very concerned and am now making plans.
I know it's difficult at the moment, but go outside. Take a walk in the open air. Buy a bike and get yourself properly knackered of an afternoon. Take up knitting. Just do something other than watching conspiracy crap on youtube.
There is no global conspiracy. The WEF is just a group of CEOs and celebs backslapping and trying to sell stuff to each other. There is no shadowy cabal taking over the world for their own malign ends. Bill Gates is not injecting you with 5G nanobots.
The world has enough problems without people inventing bogeymen.
Anyway I'll leave it there. I'll observe from afar in my bubble!
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