Discussion
I don't know exactly what the aims of it are or to what degree the whole effort is coordinated, but it has clearly been blown out of all proportion quite deliberately. If nothing else the reporting of anyone who has had covid in the last 28 days as being a covid death should be a bit of an alarm bell.
There is much else though. The draconian laws and huge fines, the lie that our previously serene NHS is now like a Crimean war field hospital full of dead and dying, the crackpot testing regime, the drive to shut out any dissenting voices, appeals to the authority of organisations and vague groups while totally discounting actual experts who have differing views. Then there's the rituals and the nonsensical lockdowns, the scorn for anyone who disagrees and the barmy paranoia about seeing conspiracy theories and "misinformation" everywhere.
Covid is a real disease. It is a strong version of a common cold and probably hastens the deaths of elderly and ill people in some cases. The crisis has been manufactured by the media whipping up panic and politicians capitalising on that, with of course plenty standing by ready to scoop up the cash for ropey PPE and unnecessary vaccines given to millions of people regularly for ever more. That a few very wealthy and influential people see it as an opportunity for their 'great reset' will doubtlessly have some bearing on it too, though it isn't clear how much.
It has also become quite clear, as your responses show, that for many people it has become a kind of cult. You have rituals and symbols, and contempt for those who don't go along with it. The vaccine is a baptism you feel entitles you to better treatment than unbelievers. There's a lot of that at all levels, and it has given this a momentum of its own.
There is much else though. The draconian laws and huge fines, the lie that our previously serene NHS is now like a Crimean war field hospital full of dead and dying, the crackpot testing regime, the drive to shut out any dissenting voices, appeals to the authority of organisations and vague groups while totally discounting actual experts who have differing views. Then there's the rituals and the nonsensical lockdowns, the scorn for anyone who disagrees and the barmy paranoia about seeing conspiracy theories and "misinformation" everywhere.
Covid is a real disease. It is a strong version of a common cold and probably hastens the deaths of elderly and ill people in some cases. The crisis has been manufactured by the media whipping up panic and politicians capitalising on that, with of course plenty standing by ready to scoop up the cash for ropey PPE and unnecessary vaccines given to millions of people regularly for ever more. That a few very wealthy and influential people see it as an opportunity for their 'great reset' will doubtlessly have some bearing on it too, though it isn't clear how much.
It has also become quite clear, as your responses show, that for many people it has become a kind of cult. You have rituals and symbols, and contempt for those who don't go along with it. The vaccine is a baptism you feel entitles you to better treatment than unbelievers. There's a lot of that at all levels, and it has given this a momentum of its own.
Edited by JuanCarlosFandango on Tuesday 23 February 14:19
Brave Fart said:
Well, either the vaccines reduce transmission, or they don't. If they don't, there's no point in vaccine passports because there will always be some folk who can't have the vaccine. If they do reduce transmission, there's no point in vaccine passports because if you're vaccinated then you're safe. Of course we'll never get a 100% safe situation whatever we do.
Bottom line: if a person is worried, get jabbed (and don't try to impose your choice on others) . Otherwise, do whatever you like.
Well no. There is a point in having vaccine passports. It will enable those who lack critical thinking ability to fool themselves into thinking what righteous people they are. It will enable jumped-up plumbers to think they're helping and influencing. Similar to clapping for carers by hordes who really could not care less about carers but want to seem good and dare not be seen by their neighbours not clapping. It is possible that some countries might want evidence of vaccination before allowing entry, in which case treat it like Yellow Fever cards - or choose to go elsewhere. It's populist nonsense, which is why I fear Boris might introduce passports.Bottom line: if a person is worried, get jabbed (and don't try to impose your choice on others) . Otherwise, do whatever you like.
And yes, if you're worried about Covid, get jabbed. If you're not worried about it, make your own decision. The numbers of unvaccinated will be a small proportion of the population. Allow the unvaccinated to change their minds if and when they see benefits of vaccination. Do not expect to see zero Covid; keep developing vaccinations and therapeutics; maintain NHS capability to cope with ongoing cases.
Time to bin the whole concept of vaccine passports and move on to focussing on development of quick and accurate Covid tests.
CraigyMc said:
For the record, this theory you have that there's a conspiracy, what would it take for you to stop believing in it?
I suppose it would have to be a substantial amount of evidence from various sources that I found more persuasive than what has led me to this view, or caused me to look at it in a different way.JuanCarlosFandango said:
I don't know exactly what the aims of it are or to what degree the whole effort is coordinated, but it has clearly been blown out of all proportion quite deliberately. If nothing else the reporting of anyone who has had covid in the last 28 days as being a covid death should be a bit of an alarm bell.
There is much else though. The draconian laws and huge fines, the lie that our previously serene NHS is now like a Crimean war field hospital full of dead and dying, the drive to shut out any dissenting voices, appeals to the authority of organisations and vague groups while totally discounting actual experts who have differing views. Then there's the rituals and the nonsensical lockdowns, the scorn for anyone who disagrees and the barmy paranoia about seeing conspiracy theories and "misinformation" everywhere.
Covid is a real disease. It is a strong version of a common cold and probably hastens the deaths of elderly and ill people in some cases. The crisis has been manufactured by the media whipping up panic and politicians capitalising on that, with of course plenty standing by ready to scoop up the cash for ropey PPE and unnecessary vaccines given to millions of people regularly for ever more. That a few very wealthy and influential people see it as an opportunity for their 'great reset' will doubtlessly have some bearing on it too, though it isn't clear how much.
It has also become quite clear, as your responses show, that for many people it has become a kind of cult. You have rituals and symbols, and contempt for those who don't go along with it. The vaccine is a baptism you feel entitles you to better treatment than unbelievers. There's a lot of that at all levels, and it has given this a momentum of its own.
Heretic! There is much else though. The draconian laws and huge fines, the lie that our previously serene NHS is now like a Crimean war field hospital full of dead and dying, the drive to shut out any dissenting voices, appeals to the authority of organisations and vague groups while totally discounting actual experts who have differing views. Then there's the rituals and the nonsensical lockdowns, the scorn for anyone who disagrees and the barmy paranoia about seeing conspiracy theories and "misinformation" everywhere.
Covid is a real disease. It is a strong version of a common cold and probably hastens the deaths of elderly and ill people in some cases. The crisis has been manufactured by the media whipping up panic and politicians capitalising on that, with of course plenty standing by ready to scoop up the cash for ropey PPE and unnecessary vaccines given to millions of people regularly for ever more. That a few very wealthy and influential people see it as an opportunity for their 'great reset' will doubtlessly have some bearing on it too, though it isn't clear how much.
It has also become quite clear, as your responses show, that for many people it has become a kind of cult. You have rituals and symbols, and contempt for those who don't go along with it. The vaccine is a baptism you feel entitles you to better treatment than unbelievers. There's a lot of that at all levels, and it has given this a momentum of its own.
purplepenguin said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
I don't know exactly what the aims of it are or to what degree the whole effort is coordinated, but it has clearly been blown out of all proportion quite deliberately. If nothing else the reporting of anyone who has had covid in the last 28 days as being a covid death should be a bit of an alarm bell.
There is much else though. The draconian laws and huge fines, the lie that our previously serene NHS is now like a Crimean war field hospital full of dead and dying, the drive to shut out any dissenting voices, appeals to the authority of organisations and vague groups while totally discounting actual experts who have differing views. Then there's the rituals and the nonsensical lockdowns, the scorn for anyone who disagrees and the barmy paranoia about seeing conspiracy theories and "misinformation" everywhere.
Covid is a real disease. It is a strong version of a common cold and probably hastens the deaths of elderly and ill people in some cases. The crisis has been manufactured by the media whipping up panic and politicians capitalising on that, with of course plenty standing by ready to scoop up the cash for ropey PPE and unnecessary vaccines given to millions of people regularly for ever more. That a few very wealthy and influential people see it as an opportunity for their 'great reset' will doubtlessly have some bearing on it too, though it isn't clear how much.
It has also become quite clear, as your responses show, that for many people it has become a kind of cult. You have rituals and symbols, and contempt for those who don't go along with it. The vaccine is a baptism you feel entitles you to better treatment than unbelievers. There's a lot of that at all levels, and it has given this a momentum of its own.
Heretic! There is much else though. The draconian laws and huge fines, the lie that our previously serene NHS is now like a Crimean war field hospital full of dead and dying, the drive to shut out any dissenting voices, appeals to the authority of organisations and vague groups while totally discounting actual experts who have differing views. Then there's the rituals and the nonsensical lockdowns, the scorn for anyone who disagrees and the barmy paranoia about seeing conspiracy theories and "misinformation" everywhere.
Covid is a real disease. It is a strong version of a common cold and probably hastens the deaths of elderly and ill people in some cases. The crisis has been manufactured by the media whipping up panic and politicians capitalising on that, with of course plenty standing by ready to scoop up the cash for ropey PPE and unnecessary vaccines given to millions of people regularly for ever more. That a few very wealthy and influential people see it as an opportunity for their 'great reset' will doubtlessly have some bearing on it too, though it isn't clear how much.
It has also become quite clear, as your responses show, that for many people it has become a kind of cult. You have rituals and symbols, and contempt for those who don't go along with it. The vaccine is a baptism you feel entitles you to better treatment than unbelievers. There's a lot of that at all levels, and it has given this a momentum of its own.
Much of what JuanCarlosFandango says is observation, and has some truth in it. For example, the mainstream media have been very pro-lockdown and have promoted Project Fear constantly. 5 Live is a good example of this.
Where I can't agree with JCF is that it's all part of some grand plan. I don't think it is. I think politicians in the UK and elsewhere have proved themselves incompetent and have copied one another (with a few obvious exceptions like South Korea, Oz and NZ). The likes of Boris can barely dress themselves in the morning, let alone execute some great "reset" or conspiracy.
I mean, Wee Nippy Sturgeon part of a conspiracy that Boris is also a part of? No chance. Mark Drakeford an element of a sinister master plan? Come off it.
Where I can't agree with JCF is that it's all part of some grand plan. I don't think it is. I think politicians in the UK and elsewhere have proved themselves incompetent and have copied one another (with a few obvious exceptions like South Korea, Oz and NZ). The likes of Boris can barely dress themselves in the morning, let alone execute some great "reset" or conspiracy.
I mean, Wee Nippy Sturgeon part of a conspiracy that Boris is also a part of? No chance. Mark Drakeford an element of a sinister master plan? Come off it.
Brave Fart said:
Much of what JuanCarlosFandango says is observation, and has some truth in it. For example, the mainstream media have been very pro-lockdown and have promoted Project Fear constantly. 5 Live is a good example of this.
Where I can't agree with JCF is that it's all part of some grand plan. I don't think it is. I think politicians in the UK and elsewhere have proved themselves incompetent and have copied one another (with a few obvious exceptions like South Korea, Oz and NZ). The likes of Boris can barely dress themselves in the morning, let alone execute some great "reset" or conspiracy.
I mean, Wee Nippy Sturgeon part of a conspiracy that Boris is also a part of? No chance. Mark Drakeford an element of a sinister master plan? Come off it.
Well I did actually say I doubt the degree of central coordination, and I certainly agree that neither Johnson or Sturgeon are the architects of it. The participants of the WEF do draw quite a bit of water though and with the funding they give to media, universities and others can buy quite a bit of influence.Where I can't agree with JCF is that it's all part of some grand plan. I don't think it is. I think politicians in the UK and elsewhere have proved themselves incompetent and have copied one another (with a few obvious exceptions like South Korea, Oz and NZ). The likes of Boris can barely dress themselves in the morning, let alone execute some great "reset" or conspiracy.
I mean, Wee Nippy Sturgeon part of a conspiracy that Boris is also a part of? No chance. Mark Drakeford an element of a sinister master plan? Come off it.
It seems more like World War 1, where no particular person or country really wanted all out war but constantly talking it up, banging the drum and playing to the crowds made a descent into madness the only option. With of course commercial, personal and political ambitions helping things along.
Or, and hear me out here, this might sound crazy - we have an actual pandemic of an actual virus which actually kills people, particularly elderly people, and our governments are trying, with various degrees of competence, to manage the situation with as little death and suffering as they can?
Nah, must be illuminati.
Nah, must be illuminati.
otolith said:
Or, and hear me out here, this might sound crazy - we have an actual pandemic of an actual virus which actually kills people, particularly elderly people, and our governments are trying, with various degrees of competence, to manage the situation with as little death and suffering as they can?
Nah, must be illuminati.
Nah, must be illuminati.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
loads of stuff...too long to quote again
Goodness.otolith said:
Or, and hear me out here, this might sound crazy - we have an actual pandemic of an actual virus which actually kills people, particularly elderly people, and our governments are trying, with various degrees of competence, to manage the situation with as little death and suffering as they can?
Nah, must be illuminati.
I'll have a pint of this please.Nah, must be illuminati.
otolith said:
Or, and hear me out here, this might sound crazy - we have an actual pandemic of an actual virus which actually kills people, particularly elderly people, and our governments are trying, with various degrees of competence, to manage the situation with as little death and suffering as they can?
Nah, must be illuminati.
This.Nah, must be illuminati.
otolith said:
Or, and hear me out here, this might sound crazy - we have an actual pandemic of an actual virus which actually kills people, particularly elderly people, and our governments are trying, with various degrees of competence, to manage the situation with as little death and suffering as they can?
I have a pretty low opinion of politicians on the whole but that would require a level of incompetence I find hard to believe. Just look at the collapse in GDP. Nearly 10%. The biggest slump since useful records began. And that enormous loss is mitigated by furlough and other schemes. The actual fall in productive economic activity is even bigger.
It isn't just about money vs lives but that has real, long lasting consequences for health and well being. That is less money for the NHS, less money for health and information campaigns, less money for research, fewer jobs, fewer leisure centres and so on. It's less education and poorer housing. Less infrastructure and less employment.
And good lord are those things to need all the resources they can get when this mess is over. When a year's worth of patients who have missed screenings and elective surgeries flood back in. When the support schemes stop and the viable jobs and good businesses are gone forever and the mental health problems, failed marriages, alcoholism and suicides that go with that start to bite.
And that is assuming we and other countries do actually return to normal fairly soon. The record of politicians relinquishing "temporary" powers isn't that great. As you will know if you're lucky enough to still have a job and be contributing to the Napoleonic war effort this month (the origin of the "temporary" income tax.)
And the rest of the world may not get back to normal easily either. The comparable economic turmoil of the 1920s didn't end so well. God knows what the consequences of this will be when it all shakes out.
And all for a disease which many people in their 80s shrug off. A disease which we know about and now have a vaccine for. A disease we could have significantly mitigated the damage for without closing a single school, shop, pub or hair dressers had we done as was suggested early on, isolated the most vulnerable and kept other things going.
If they are that incompetent then we have even bigger problems than if alien lizard monsters are injecting us all with control chips.
otolith said:
Or, and hear me out here, this might sound crazy - we have an actual pandemic of an actual virus which actually kills people, particularly elderly people, and our governments are trying, with various degrees of competence, to manage the situation with as little death and suffering as they can?
Nah, must be illuminati.
Which would be great, if the actions in response to it we even remotely proportional to the actual threat. If they were, there would be no talk of conspiracies.Nah, must be illuminati.
monkfish1 said:
Which would be great, if the actions in response to it we even remotely proportional to the actual threat. If they were, there would be no talk of conspiracies.
You get conspiracy theory talk over most things these days.It’s not related to the proportion of response it’s about echo chambers and the amount of misinformation.
monkfish1 said:
otolith said:
Or, and hear me out here, this might sound crazy - we have an actual pandemic of an actual virus which actually kills people, particularly elderly people, and our governments are trying, with various degrees of competence, to manage the situation with as little death and suffering as they can?
Nah, must be illuminati.
Which would be great, if the actions in response to it we even remotely proportional to the actual threat. If they were, there would be no talk of conspiracies.Nah, must be illuminati.
If there had been a much lower key response, and the death toll was 3 or 4 times higher than now, the conspiracy loons would just be talking how the high death rate was planned by the lizard overlords.
Mental will always find a way.
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