Discussion
captain_cynic said:
otolith said:
purplepenguin said:
Ah, a brave new world awaits
Meh. Lots of snowflakery about nothing.Vaccine "passports" won't ever exist because 1. It will require too much international cooperation from countries which have too many different wants and; 2. The yellow "certificate of vaccination" already exiata. I will expect any COVID-19 stamp to be put in there under the ones I already have for my TB an Yellow Fever stamps.
The fear mongering by anti-vaxxers is weak, impotent and utterly fabricated.
otolith said:
People have a choice whether to get vaccinated or not. If private enterprises wish to restrict entry to those who opt to be vaccinated, that is in no way similar to denying entry to people who have an incurable life-long condition.
.
And yet the vaccine will not prevent transmission 100%. Which means if it was 99% effective (which it is not and never will be) and 65 million got injected that would leave 650k people able to spread disease..
By the way whether or not you have a "curable" life long condition is not relevant to the question of whether it can be transmitted and infect others. If your desire is preventative then this must be a material issue too.
Then I presume you also think that each year when a new strain appears that everyone will have to be re-injected and prevented from access until they are?
Jasandjules said:
otolith said:
People have a choice whether to get vaccinated or not. If private enterprises wish to restrict entry to those who opt to be vaccinated, that is in no way similar to denying entry to people who have an incurable life-long condition.
.
And yet the vaccine will not prevent transmission 100%. Which means if it was 99% effective (which it is not and never will be) and 65 million got injected that would leave 650k people able to spread disease..
By the way whether or not you have a "curable" life long condition is not relevant to the question of whether it can be transmitted and infect others. If your desire is preventative then this must be a material issue too.
Then I presume you also think that each year when a new strain appears that everyone will have to be re-injected and prevented from access until they are?
I am not making the case for why private enterprises should implement this rule.
I am saying that if they wish to, that is their business.
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
Lily the Pink said:
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
It's looking as if vaccination will make testing largely redundant, in terms of the reduction in transmission risk. Airlines may want to reduce the risk of having Covid carriers onboard, but I suspect that the major issue there will be more about whether countries with zero or negligible covid will allow in unvaccinated travellers. I caught something about an app based passport being used somewhere which gives you a temporary green light after a negative test.
Lily the Pink said:
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
Why is covid special vs any other transmittable disease, be it flu, measles, mumps, TB, polio etc all can be deathly to certain risk groups... otolith said:
Lily the Pink said:
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
It's looking as if vaccination will make testing largely redundant, in terms of the reduction in transmission risk. Airlines may want to reduce the risk of having Covid carriers onboard, but I suspect that the major issue there will be more about whether countries with zero or negligible covid will allow in unvaccinated travellers. I caught something about an app based passport being used somewhere which gives you a temporary green light after a negative test.
Are vaccination passports being considered to reduce the chance of introducing Covid into a country, or to reduce the potential burden imposed by a traveller who caught the disease while in-country ?
b0rk said:
Lily the Pink said:
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
Why is covid special vs any other transmittable disease, be it flu, measles, mumps, TB, polio etc all can be deathly to certain risk groups... 
21TonyK said:
b0rk said:
Lily the Pink said:
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
Why is covid special vs any other transmittable disease, be it flu, measles, mumps, TB, polio etc all can be deathly to certain risk groups... I am of an age where I recall a few Polio victims. Perhaps that is why i look differently on vaccination generally.
Lily the Pink said:
otolith said:
Lily the Pink said:
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
It's looking as if vaccination will make testing largely redundant, in terms of the reduction in transmission risk. Airlines may want to reduce the risk of having Covid carriers onboard, but I suspect that the major issue there will be more about whether countries with zero or negligible covid will allow in unvaccinated travellers. I caught something about an app based passport being used somewhere which gives you a temporary green light after a negative test.
Are vaccination passports being considered to reduce the chance of introducing Covid into a country, or to reduce the potential burden imposed by a traveller who caught the disease while in-country ?
You don't test positive immediately you are infected, so there is a residual risk in any case. Countries could of course still require other measures such as testing and quarantining on top. It's really up to their governments.
otolith said:
Lily the Pink said:
otolith said:
Lily the Pink said:
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
It's looking as if vaccination will make testing largely redundant, in terms of the reduction in transmission risk. Airlines may want to reduce the risk of having Covid carriers onboard, but I suspect that the major issue there will be more about whether countries with zero or negligible covid will allow in unvaccinated travellers. I caught something about an app based passport being used somewhere which gives you a temporary green light after a negative test.
Are vaccination passports being considered to reduce the chance of introducing Covid into a country, or to reduce the potential burden imposed by a traveller who caught the disease while in-country ?
You don't test positive immediately you are infected, so there is a residual risk in any case. Countries could of course still require other measures such as testing and quarantining on top. It's really up to their governments.
Nickgnome said:
21TonyK said:
b0rk said:
Lily the Pink said:
Surely the vaccination status is irrelevant when you go to board a plane or invite a plumber into your house. What would be a lot more relevant - and I suspect acceptable to more people - would be evidence of a recent negative test. I was encouraged to hear on yesterday's news the BBC reporter referred to the "passport" showing either vacc or test status. But I've not seen that mentioned elsewhere.
Why is covid special vs any other transmittable disease, be it flu, measles, mumps, TB, polio etc all can be deathly to certain risk groups... I am of an age where I recall a few Polio victims. Perhaps that is why i look differently on vaccination generally.
You have to hope that globally these vaccines continue to be used.
otolith said:
purplepenguin said:
How will that work out for those countries that really need the tourists money?
That is up to them really, isn't it? No doubt they will weigh up the economic cost of lockdowns etc versus the economic cost of discouraging tourism and reach their own conclusion. Nickgnome said:
otolith said:
purplepenguin said:
How will that work out for those countries that really need the tourists money?
That is up to them really, isn't it? No doubt they will weigh up the economic cost of lockdowns etc versus the economic cost of discouraging tourism and reach their own conclusion. 21TonyK said:
Yeah, in the UK mumps is actually up the past couple of years but was to under 1000 in 2015 from a high of 63,000+ ten years before, measles in down to 1000 cases from 148,000 in 1980. Polio... last recorded cases (2) were in 1985.
You have to hope that globally these vaccines continue to be used.
The angst about mumps etc is that the vaccines are targeted at children, who can’t really make their own decisions, but end up owning the consequences of the parent’s decisions. The COVID vaccines are completely different - if grown adults make a decision, then they, and only they, face the consequences in either direction. The people who surround them can also make their decisions, and are completely insulated from the decision of an individual. You have to hope that globally these vaccines continue to be used.
rxe said:
21TonyK said:
Yeah, in the UK mumps is actually up the past couple of years but was to under 1000 in 2015 from a high of 63,000+ ten years before, measles in down to 1000 cases from 148,000 in 1980. Polio... last recorded cases (2) were in 1985.
You have to hope that globally these vaccines continue to be used.
The angst about mumps etc is that the vaccines are targeted at children, who can’t really make their own decisions, but end up owning the consequences of the parent’s decisions. The COVID vaccines are completely different - if grown adults make a decision, then they, and only they, face the consequences in either direction. The people who surround them can also make their decisions, and are completely insulated from the decision of an individual. You have to hope that globally these vaccines continue to be used.
They are not targeted and yes parents do make decisions on behalf of children. It is normal and it is called parenting.
I was inoculated as child and my then wife and I ensured our daughter was. She in turn has done the same for her daughter.
Nickgnome said:
Children are vaccinated so they do not succumb to some extremely unpleasant diseases with life long impacts.
They are not targeted and yes parents do make decisions on behalf of children. It is normal and it is called parenting.
I was inoculated as child and my then wife and I ensured our daughter was. She in turn has done the same for her daughter.
You’ve completely misunderstood the point of my post. They are not targeted and yes parents do make decisions on behalf of children. It is normal and it is called parenting.
I was inoculated as child and my then wife and I ensured our daughter was. She in turn has done the same for her daughter.
Children are targeted because you can catch diseases as a child that have lifelong consequences. We don’t wait until people are 30 to give them a jab, we give them to them very early. Hence the targeting.
The controversy about childhood vaccines is because parents, right or wrong, are making the decisions that affect the lives of their children. So because of a parents decision about a vaccine, the child may suffer the consequences. I’m deliberately not making any judgement about the correctness or otherwise of these decisions.
In contrast a Covid vaccine is an entirely personal decision as children are unaffected - it is a disease of adults and mainly elderly adults. If an adult decides not to have a vaccine, that’s their call. They suffer the consequences, no one else does. So the wibble about “i expect an airline to check the vaccine status of all passengers” is just wibble. Check your own vaccine status and act accordingly....
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