Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)

[don'tbesilly]

Mrr T said:

Rule of holes when in one stop digging.

I agree the government dropped the clauses but only after the vote in the HOL delayed them passing into law and Gove agreeing to everything the IM NI protocol attempted to change.

So the government was just debating breaking international law?

When in a hole it's best you either keep quiet and hope filling in the hole will go unnoticed, or continue digging the hole which you are continuing to do

Mrr T said:

The only reason the bill did not become law is the remain HOL voted it down.

Nothing to do with the House of Lords.



The UK and EU have reached agreement on how rules in the Brexit divorce deal will be implemented, particularly in relation to Northern Ireland.

The government says an "agreement in principle" has been found for issues including border control posts and the supply of medicines.

Controversial powers withdrawn
The UK government also agreed to withdraw controversial clauses from its Internal Market Bill, which is currently going through parliament.

Ministers had threatened to use the bill to introduce powers which could override parts of the Brexit divorce deal it signed last year - the withdrawal agreement, potentially breaking international law.

It said it wanted a "safety net" to prevent a "border down the Irish Sea" in case talks with the EU broke down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55229681

[Iminquarantine]

This is not good.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/04/br...

Loyalist paramilitary groups have told the British and Irish governments they are withdrawing support for the Good Friday agreement in protest at Northern Ireland’s Irish Sea trade border with the rest of the UK.

The Loyalist Communities Council, an umbrella group that represents the views of the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando, wrote a letter to Boris Johnson and Ireland’s taoiseach, Micheál Martin, warning of “permanent destruction” of the 1998 peace agreement without changes to post-Brexit arrangements for Northern Ireland.

[Mrr T]

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

Rule of holes when in one stop digging.

I agree the government dropped the clauses but only after the vote in the HOL delayed them passing into law and Gove agreeing to everything the IM NI protocol attempted to change.

So the government was just debating breaking international law?

When in a hole it's best you either keep quiet and hope filling in the hole will go unnoticed, or continue digging the hole which you are continuing to do

Mrr T said:

The only reason the bill did not become law is the remain HOL voted it down.

Nothing to do with the House of Lords.



The UK and EU have reached agreement on how rules in the Brexit divorce deal will be implemented, particularly in relation to Northern Ireland.

The government says an "agreement in principle" has been found for issues including border control posts and the supply of medicines.

Controversial powers withdrawn
The UK government also agreed to withdraw controversial clauses from its Internal Market Bill, which is currently going through parliament.

Ministers had threatened to use the bill to introduce powers which could override parts of the Brexit divorce deal it signed last year - the withdrawal agreement, potentially breaking international law.

It said it wanted a "safety net" to prevent a "border down the Irish Sea" in case talks with the EU broke down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55229681

Let's measure the hole. The government proposed the NI protocal changes in the IM bill. This was passed by the HOC. It was rejected by the HOL 18 November. If it had passed the HOL it would have received RA about the 30 November.

The Gove agreement was 8 December.

So did Gove give up on all the changes in the NI protocol because the EU convinced him their plans where better. Or did Gove give up because it was clear with the HOL opposition it was unlikely they could get the bill passed before transend.

[JeffreyD]

Iminquarantine said:

This is not good.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/04/br...

Loyalist paramilitary groups have told the British and Irish governments they are withdrawing support for the Good Friday agreement in protest at Northern Ireland’s Irish Sea trade border with the rest of the UK.

The Loyalist Communities Council, an umbrella group that represents the views of the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando, wrote a letter to Boris Johnson and Ireland’s taoiseach, Micheál Martin, warning of “permanent destruction” of the 1998 peace agreement without changes to post-Brexit arrangements for Northern Ireland.

That will be the EUs fault over the vaccines.

[London424]

Of course it would have passed in time. That’s why they introduced it as early as they did. There were a few head scratches at the time about why introduce it so early while talks were ongoing, but it certainly seemed to focus minds and they came up with an agreement.

[roger.mellie]

JeffreyD said:

Iminquarantine said:

This is not good.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/04/br...

Loyalist paramilitary groups have told the British and Irish governments they are withdrawing support for the Good Friday agreement in protest at Northern Ireland’s Irish Sea trade border with the rest of the UK.

The Loyalist Communities Council, an umbrella group that represents the views of the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando, wrote a letter to Boris Johnson and Ireland’s taoiseach, Micheál Martin, warning of “permanent destruction” of the 1998 peace agreement without changes to post-Brexit arrangements for Northern Ireland.

That will be the EUs fault over the vaccines.

All over the airwaves here at the moment. Budget is practically forgotten and the Frost story is getting second billing. I'd recommend reading some of Allison Morris' views as she broke the story and is a good source on NI security issues - https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews...

A question I'm asking myself is do they really expect to achieve anything? The unionist parties have created a false hope that the NI protocol can be done away with and Boris has allowed that to fester by not knocking that notion on the head. So if violence escalates, what do they attack? A few port workers or lorry drivers in Larne? I doubt the UK gov will care about that unfortunately and it won't change anything. But if the gov are claiming to take being guarantors of the peace process seriously they should be dealing with those concerns honestly instead of grandstanding over protocol violations.

In other sinister activity maybe Boris has been writing graffiti in Sandy Row - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-i...

[Murph7355]

JeffreyD said:

That will be the EUs fault over the vaccines.

Nah. That one's down to home grown terrorist knob jockeys always looking for an excuse.

[don'tbesilly]

Mrr T said:

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

Rule of holes when in one stop digging.

I agree the government dropped the clauses but only after the vote in the HOL delayed them passing into law and Gove agreeing to everything the IM NI protocol attempted to change.

So the government was just debating breaking international law?

When in a hole it's best you either keep quiet and hope filling in the hole will go unnoticed, or continue digging the hole which you are continuing to do

Mrr T said:

The only reason the bill did not become law is the remain HOL voted it down.

Nothing to do with the House of Lords.



The UK and EU have reached agreement on how rules in the Brexit divorce deal will be implemented, particularly in relation to Northern Ireland.

The government says an "agreement in principle" has been found for issues including border control posts and the supply of medicines.

Controversial powers withdrawn
The UK government also agreed to withdraw controversial clauses from its Internal Market Bill, which is currently going through parliament.

Ministers had threatened to use the bill to introduce powers which could override parts of the Brexit divorce deal it signed last year - the withdrawal agreement, potentially breaking international law.

It said it wanted a "safety net" to prevent a "border down the Irish Sea" in case talks with the EU broke down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55229681

Let's measure the hole. The government proposed the NI protocal changes in the IM bill. This was passed by the HOC. It was rejected by the HOL 18 November. If it had passed the HOL it would have received RA about the 30 November.

The Gove agreement was 8 December.

So did Gove give up on all the changes in the NI protocol because the EU convinced him their plans where better. Or did Gove give up because it was clear with the HOL opposition it was unlikely they could get the bill passed before transend.

So despite all the articles being posted which contradict what you wrote earlier, you want to stick this this:

Mrr T said:

The only reason the bill did not become law is the remain HOL voted it down.

Yes or No?

[JeffreyD]

roger.mellie said:

All over the airwaves here at the moment. Budget is practically forgotten and the Frost story is getting second billing. I'd recommend reading some of Allison Morris' views as she broke the story and is a good source on NI security issues - https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews...

A question I'm asking myself is do they really expect to achieve anything? The unionist parties have created a false hope that the NI protocol can be done away with and Boris has allowed that to fester by not knocking that notion on the head. So if violence escalates, what do they attack? A few port workers or lorry drivers in Larne? I doubt the UK gov will care about that unfortunately and it won't change anything. But if the gov are claiming to take being guarantors of the peace process seriously they should be dealing with those concerns honestly instead of grandstanding over protocol violations.

In other sinister activity maybe Boris has been writing graffiti in Sandy Row - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-i...

You only have to look at this thread to realise that people who support Boris really don't give a st about Northern Ireland.
It's all about English Votes.

[Murph7355]

roger.mellie said:

...
A question I'm asking myself is do they really expect to achieve anything? The unionist parties have created a false hope that the NI protocol can be done away with and Boris has allowed that to fester by not knocking that notion on the head. So if violence escalates, what do they attack? A few port workers or lorry drivers in Larne? I doubt the UK gov will care about that unfortunately and it won't change anything. But if the gov are claiming to take being guarantors of the peace process seriously they should be dealing with those concerns honestly instead of grandstanding over protocol violations.

In other sinister activity maybe Boris has been writing graffiti in Sandy Row - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-i...

I appreciate Walter Softy is also not everyone's cup of tea (and in part with good reason), but didn't JRM publicly note recently that the way to address this is through democratic process. ie garner enough support in NI and vote out the protocol if that is believed to be in the best interests of the people there.

The response seemed to be "but we have no chance of doing that"....which isn't really a logical answer. But then terrorism isn't really that logical.

Any UK govt would care about its citizens being killed/maimed by home grown terrorists. So that's just a daft comment. The question is, should that be allowed to change anything?

As for protocol violations, I think we are again in a position where two comms releases have been made and we must take our pick over which we believe. It's a very similar scenario to when this kicked off over Q2/Q3 year during the negotiations.

[JeffreyD]

Murph7355 said:

JeffreyD said:

That will be the EUs fault over the vaccines.

Nah. That one's down to home grown terrorist knob jockeys always looking for an excuse.

Have this mob denounced the GFI before?

[anonymous-user]

JeffreyD said:

You only have to look at this thread to realise that people who support Boris really don't give a st about Northern Ireland.
It's all about English Votes.

Same with increased chance of Scottish independence and the break up of the union or any other negative that gets mentioned.

As long as England itself is free from the EU nothing else matters.

[DeepEnd]

Iminquarantine said:

This is not good.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/04/br...

Loyalist paramilitary groups have told the British and Irish governments they are withdrawing support for the Good Friday agreement in protest at Northern Ireland’s Irish Sea trade border with the rest of the UK.

The Loyalist Communities Council, an umbrella group that represents the views of the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando, wrote a letter to Boris Johnson and Ireland’s taoiseach, Micheál Martin, warning of “permanent destruction” of the 1998 peace agreement without changes to post-Brexit arrangements for Northern Ireland.

Project fear. I’m sure leavers will accept responsibility for the consequences of their vote as usual.

[Iminquarantine]

Murph7355 said:

roger.mellie said:

...
A question I'm asking myself is do they really expect to achieve anything? The unionist parties have created a false hope that the NI protocol can be done away with and Boris has allowed that to fester by not knocking that notion on the head. So if violence escalates, what do they attack? A few port workers or lorry drivers in Larne? I doubt the UK gov will care about that unfortunately and it won't change anything. But if the gov are claiming to take being guarantors of the peace process seriously they should be dealing with those concerns honestly instead of grandstanding over protocol violations.

In other sinister activity maybe Boris has been writing graffiti in Sandy Row - https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-i...

I appreciate Walter Softy is also not everyone's cup of tea (and in part with good reason), but didn't JRM publicly note recently that the way to address this is through democratic process. ie garner enough support in NI and vote out the protocol if that is believed to be in the best interests of the people there.

The response seemed to be "but we have no chance of doing that"....which isn't really a logical answer. But then terrorism isn't really that logical.

Any UK govt would care about its citizens being killed/maimed by home grown terrorists. So that's just a daft comment. The question is, should that be allowed to change anything?

As for protocol violations, I think we are again in a position where two comms releases have been made and we must take our pick over which we believe. It's a very similar scenario to when this kicked off over Q2/Q3 year during the negotiations.

This problem has no solution. The previous NI-roUK-RoI relationship was possible because the UK was part of the EU single market. Now it is not a part of the EU single market. There must be a hard customs border in the Irish sea or on the island of Ireland. Right now, it is in the Irish Sea. All this has been pointed out before and after the referendum. This is what Brexit means. Pointless violence being pointless has never stopped it happening before. Well done Brexiters for opening up decades long trouble which has been dormant for over 20 years.

[London424]

By being in the EU the scotch whisky industry was hit with tariffs which had cost them 500 million

http://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/feb/02/us-tar...

Now, out of the EU the US are suspending those tariffs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/exclusive-us-t...

[JeffreyD]

Murph7355 said:

Any UK govt would care about its citizens being killed/maimed by home grown terrorists. So that's just a daft comment. The question is, should that be allowed to change anything?

If they really cared they wouldn't have done what they have done.
Nobody is really surprised that the balaclavas have had a wash and are ready to used.

[bitchstewie]

El stovey said:

JeffreyD said:

You only have to look at this thread to realise that people who support Boris really don't give a st about Northern Ireland.
It's all about English Votes.

Same with increased chance of Scottish independence and the break up of the union or any other negative that gets mentioned.

As long as England itself is free from the EU nothing else matters.

Indeed.

I seem to remember a poll of either leave voters or Conservative Party members (or both) who were saying the break up of the union was acceptable if it meant we leave the EU.

I don't tend to remember specific posts but when Northern Ireland was being discussed a year or two ago the phrase "let them bomb" sticks in my memory as it chilled me.

[JeffreyD]

London424 said:

By being in the EU the scotch whisky industry was hit with tariffs which had cost them 500 million

http://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/feb/02/us-tar...

Now, out of the EU the US are suspending those tariffs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/exclusive-us-t...

That does seem like good news and a direct benefit of Brexit

[Murph7355]

Iminquarantine said:

... Well done Brexiters for opening up decades long trouble which has been dormant for over 20 years.

JeffreyD said:

Murph7355 said:

Any UK govt would care about its citizens being killed/maimed by home grown terrorists. So that's just a daft comment. The question is, should that be allowed to change anything?

If they really cared they wouldn't have done what they have done.
Nobody is really surprised that the balaclavas have had a wash and are ready to used.

You both appear to be saying that the political direction of the UK must not change if it risks terrorism popping up?

I'm not convinced that is a good idea.

I'm not convinced that the hard border requirement is an actual requirement either. It's a political construct.

It seems there will be some debate on the intent and implementation of the protocol with the people who were around the table discussing it. So hopefully some common sense will prevail. But where politics is concerned that is often in short supply, so who knows.

[Vanden Saab]

El stovey said:

JeffreyD said:

You only have to look at this thread to realise that people who support Boris really don't give a st about Northern Ireland.
It's all about English Votes.

Same with increased chance of Scottish independence and the break up of the union or any other negative that gets mentioned.

As long as England itself is free from the EU nothing else matters.

As an Englishman I hope one day to be given a vote on whether I want England to remain part of the UK.