Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)

[Murph7355]

JeffreyD said:

You only have to look at this thread to realise that people who support Boris really don't give a st about Northern Ireland.
It's all about English Votes.

From a personal perspective I do not want the Union dismantled.

However there has to be an element of letting the citizens of those countries decide. By 'element' I mean garner enough support and do it democratically...but not every 5mins.

With carefully thought out rules of engagement, including sensible periods between re-asking the question and better mapped out, more transparent implications of voting either way, and possibly the involvement of the wider UK as everyone is impacted, why not let people choose?

Maybe that would be the better approach for the devolved governments - spend time properly discussing the RoE and the metrics and get those written in stone. Then look to campaign for referenda on the back of it.

Allowing terrorists to dictate policy should be a red line for everyone though.

[JeffreyD]

Murph7355 said:

You both appear to be saying that the political direction of the UK must not change if it risks terrorism popping up?

And as a country that had Terrorism very much part of its daily life until 25 years ago I'd have thought avoiding that terrorism would very much be a consideration when making major decisions.

I am saying this is very much an English Tory Brexit.

They didn't consider anyone else in their decision making process, other than to use them when they needed their votes.

[Mrr T]

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

Let's measure the hole. The government proposed the NI protocal changes in the IM bill. This was passed by the HOC. It was rejected by the HOL 18 November. If it had passed the HOL it would have received RA about the 30 November.

The Gove agreement was 8 December.

So did Gove give up on all the changes in the NI protocol because the EU convinced him their plans where better. Or did Gove give up because it was clear with the HOL opposition it was unlikely they could get the bill passed before transend.

So despite all the articles being posted which contradict what you wrote earlier, you want to stick this this:

Mrr T said:

The only reason the bill did not become law is the remain HOL voted it down.

Yes or No?

So you have read all the links. Did Gove accept the EU position on every clause on the NI protocol the IM bill attempted to change and agree to drop the provisions because.
a) He now agreed the EU position was correct and the UK government should not have tried to change the NI protocol? or
b) The defeat in the HOL meant they would not get the provisions through before transend?

[citizensm1th]

Iminquarantine said:

This is not good.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/04/br...

Loyalist paramilitary groups have told the British and Irish governments they are withdrawing support for the Good Friday agreement in protest at Northern Ireland’s Irish Sea trade border with the rest of the UK.

The Loyalist Communities Council, an umbrella group that represents the views of the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando, wrote a letter to Boris Johnson and Ireland’s taoiseach, Micheál Martin, warning of “permanent destruction” of the 1998 peace agreement without changes to post-Brexit arrangements for Northern Ireland.

We will see how that goes when they start to realise that both the publics and governments reactions to terrorists have changed in the last twenty years.

[DeepEnd]

Murph7355 said:

You both appear to be saying that the political direction of the UK must not change if it risks terrorism popping up?

I'm not convinced that is a good idea.

I'm not convinced that the hard border requirement is an actual requirement either. It's a political construct.

It seems there will be some debate on the intent and implementation of the protocol with the people who were around the table discussing it. So hopefully some common sense will prevail. But where politics is concerned that is often in short supply, so who knows.

These were the political choices made by the UK in pursuit of your brexit.

Are you saying this outcome is not what you voted for? What outcome did you expect?

[Murph7355]

JeffreyD said:

Murph7355 said:

You both appear to be saying that the political direction of the UK must not change if it risks terrorism popping up?

And as a country that had Terrorism very much part of its daily life until 25 years ago I'd have thought avoiding that terrorism would very much be a consideration when making major decisions.

I am saying this is very much an English Tory Brexit.

They didn't consider anyone else in their decision making process, other than to use them when they needed their votes.

You voted Brexit? Interesting (like Tuna - where is he these days? - being a Remain voter I guess).

The ultimate democratic path of a country cannot be dictated by a very small number of people just because they threaten to blow things up/kill people. If that becomes a primary decision factor then we open ourselves up to all manner of issues.

The views of people in NI were very much considered. It was a very large part of the inertia in implementing the outcome of the referendum and was weaponised by both sides when it suited, but being as partisan as I am I think that's 2-1 to the EU frankly.

Both parties evidently felt that the protocol was, in the end, agreed in good faith. Both sides seemed clear on the intent. There appear to be some issues with implementation and some potential for disagreement over the last week on "process" (much as there may have been when the EU invoked Art16 remember).

Let's hope they can both get back to discussing it and resolve the issues.

Will the Loyalist Paramilitary people be sated? I'm not sure. But what is the solution to that small band of people threatening violence? Overturn the referendum and ask the EU if we can go back in? Tear up the FTA and go WTO?

Personally I'd follow the JRM comment - they should address their concerns democratically as breaking the law is breaking the law and will have to be dealt with.

(If "process" is all people care about, has the FTA been ratified yet by the EU?).

[JeffreyD]

Murph7355 said:

You voted Brexit? Interesting (like Tuna - where is he these days? - being a Remain voter I guess).

I don't understand the question

[Iminquarantine]

citizensm1th said:

We will see how that goes when they start to realise that both the publics and governments reactions to terrorists have changed in the last twenty years.

Gove’s home address has already been graffitied on a wall in NI, with a warning. Assuming para military groups are just going to use the same old 20th century tactics is mistaken.

[JeffreyD]

Do we know what happens if the EU don't ratify the deal?

Do we go back to WTO?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...

[Jazzer77]

stongle said:

No, I quoted you. You said an LSE opinion piece. It wasn't. There is a simple reason most of us don't post opinion pieces, because they are just that - opinion. Strangely your or my opinion is just (or in some cases more), valid than what someone blogs. There was a pro-Brexit piece in The Independent a day or so go. No one in support of Brexit was dumb enough to post it. You, and others simply drag the debate down time again; through basic comprehension fail. And the LSE guy really only opined on regulation setting (lots of more credible people have published opinions to the opposite- or value of EC regulatory policy).

The only good thing, I suppose: its one up on the usual LBC drivel posted.

Oh, and you really have lost the intellectual debate when you moan about missing quotation marks.

I notice our remain business titans didn't comment on GBP and FTSE gains (pre Budget). Totally counter to the normal posted narrative. "Lalalalalalalala" (is that better sweetie?)....

Edited by stongle on Wednesday 3rd March 23:32

Stongle you posted a video from this channel.



Please dont lecture anyone on spurious content.


Editted :"I notice our remain business titans didn't comment on GBP and FTSE gains (pre Budget)" - I was the one who brought it up approx 2 weeks ago. Check post history.


You really are going down a road of verifiable delusion now.

Edited by Jazzer77 on Thursday 4th March 13:34

[Earthdweller]

JeffreyD said:

Do we know what happens if the EU don't ratify the deal?

Do we go back to WTO?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...

It’s far from a done deal, it has to be ratified in the EU Parliament AND all member states iirc

Any one of them could scupper the deal

Of course, THAT would solve the border in the Irish Sea issue quite dramatically

[Fittster]

Tory MP and Brexit supporter Andrew Bowie talking to a group of students:

“Am I going to sit here and say that Brexit is perfect and your generation are going to reap the benefits? No I’m not”


https://twitter.com/bbcdebatenight/status/13672505...


So if even true believers don't think people who are 16-18 won't see any benefit from Brexit who will?

[Mrr T]

Earthdweller said:

JeffreyD said:

Do we know what happens if the EU don't ratify the deal?

Do we go back to WTO?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...

It’s far from a done deal, it has to be ratified in the EU Parliament AND all member states iirc

Any one of them could scupper the deal

Of course, THAT would solve the border in the Irish Sea issue quite dramatically

Why? It would make the border situation even more complicated because there would now be tarrifs on many products.

[Tryke3]

GET BREXIT DONE

Quite catchy that

[silentbrown]

JeffreyD said:

London424 said:

By being in the EU the scotch whisky industry was hit with tariffs which had cost them 500 million

http://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/feb/02/us-tar...

Now, out of the EU the US are suspending those tariffs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/exclusive-us-t...

That does seem like good news and a direct benefit of Brexit

The £500m 'loss' figure is isn't all due to tariffs, though. Whisky exports worldwide were down £1.1bn n 2020, and 'only' £340m down in the US.

I never new that France was the largest importer (by volume) of Scotch!

https://www.scotch-whisky.org.uk/newsroom/2020-sco...

[loafer123]

Mrr T said:

Earthdweller said:

JeffreyD said:

Do we know what happens if the EU don't ratify the deal?

Do we go back to WTO?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...

It’s far from a done deal, it has to be ratified in the EU Parliament AND all member states iirc

Any one of them could scupper the deal

Of course, THAT would solve the border in the Irish Sea issue quite dramatically

Why? It would make the border situation even more complicated because there would now be tarrifs on many products.

Remind me...what is the average tariff and balance of trade?

Given everyone is no longer afraid of customs arrangements as we have to do them now, what can the EU hold over us? Equivalence in FS? Nope. Co-operation on trade? Hardly.

By the EU being so petulant we have little to lose if they don't ratify.

[London424]

Earthdweller said:

JeffreyD said:

Do we know what happens if the EU don't ratify the deal?

Do we go back to WTO?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...

It’s far from a done deal, it has to be ratified in the EU Parliament AND all member states iirc

Any one of them could scupper the deal

Of course, THAT would solve the border in the Irish Sea issue quite dramatically

Isn’t CETA still to be ratified by all? And that was 3 or 4 years ago

[crankedup]

STOP BREXIT.
Quite catchy that

[London424]

silentbrown said:

JeffreyD said:

London424 said:

By being in the EU the scotch whisky industry was hit with tariffs which had cost them 500 million

http://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/feb/02/us-tar...

Now, out of the EU the US are suspending those tariffs

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/exclusive-us-t...

That does seem like good news and a direct benefit of Brexit

The £500m 'loss' figure is isn't all due to tariffs, though. Whisky exports worldwide were down £1.1bn n 2020, and 'only' £340m down in the US.

I never new that France was the largest importer (by volume) of Scotch!

https://www.scotch-whisky.org.uk/newsroom/2020-sco...

Looks like it’s not just scotch. It’s cheese, cashmere, machinery etc. That hundreds of millions and thousands of jobs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56279525

[don'tbesilly]

London424 said:

Looks like it’s not just scotch. It’s cheese, cashmere, machinery etc. That hundreds of millions and thousands of jobs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56279525

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/us-suspends-tar...


The Prime Minister Boris Johnson said:

From Scotch Whisky distillers to Stilton-makers, businesses across the UK will benefit from the US decision today to suspend tariffs in this dispute.

It shows what the UK can do as an independent trading nation, striking deals that back our businesses and support free and fair trade.

I now look forward to strengthening the UK-US relationship, as we drive economic growth and build back better together.

International Trade Secretary Liz Truss said:

I am delighted to say that our American allies – under their new President and his hard-working staff at the US Trade Representative - have embraced our move to seek a fair settlement.

This is Global Britain in action: securing new opportunities as a newly nimble nation. The benefits will be felt across our nation, especially in Scotland, where Scotch whisky distillers will be able to sell at lower prices in the United States, their most valuable market.

The easier it is for Americans to buy a bottle of Macallan, Talisker or Glenfiddich, the more money those producers will have to invest in their businesses, their staff and futures.

Today’s agreement shows that both the UK and the US are determined to work together to build back better and take our trading relationship to new heights.