Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
roger.mellie said:
Not quite. It’s the protocol so the EU are involved too. But the suggestion by a small number on this thread that the solution is the UK unilaterally ignoring it is obviously wrong. As I see jsf has just suggested whilst I was typing and I agree some practical fudge will be needed as is usual in NI politics. Where I differ with many of the comments today and every day I read this thread is blamestorming it all on the EU. Digimeister’s comment suggesting the UK are the only humanitarians concerned about NI being a particularly laughable one.
I obviously misunderstood Michael Gove when he said there would be no EU presence in Northern Ireland to oversee this process.I definitely misunderestimated this.
Earthdweller said:
thanks for reminding me of that, I enjoy Peter Kay. I’ve only seen him live once, we had tickets for his cancelled 2018 tour but that never happened.I’ll not google or link to it as I suspect it might be more racist than I remember but Brendan Grace’s Chinese takeaway sketch did strike a memory chord of many a drunken night in Dublin back in the 90’s.
JeffreyD said:
We agreed to this border - in return for what?
We've also been told that there is no EU involvement at the checks and that it is all UK staff.
So it seems that all the EU can do to make it work is to say "no need to follow the rules" - if that's the case what concession will we have to give to make that work?
I said from the start we should tell the EU to fWe've also been told that there is no EU involvement at the checks and that it is all UK staff.
So it seems that all the EU can do to make it work is to say "no need to follow the rules" - if that's the case what concession will we have to give to make that work?
k off with regards to Ireland and the whole sequencing on the talks around the WA and FTA, but the politicians went down this road and here we are.What did we get in return? Not a lot with regards to EU-UK based on the subsequent negotiations. There has certainly been no pragmatism on the EU side with regards to trade. If UK thought the EU would be flexible to calm the waters when needed, more fool them (i doubt they did and knew confrontation would come). With Frost now in place he will know the details of what was discussed regarding pragmatic application of the agreement and is going to push back against that not being followed.
The EU is involved in everything to do with the NI protocol, there are EU staff who have full access to the systems in place and there is an EU staff contingency in NI to monitor this.
JeffreyD said:
I obviously misunderstood Michael Gove when he said there would be no EU presence in Northern Ireland to oversee this process.
I definitely misunderestimated this.
He lied on that for sure. Yes, the UK did make a big deal out of not allowing the EU a permanent office presence whilst also allowing them a non permanent but basically permanent hot decking setup. Politically popular with the bobble heads without making any practicable difference is modern Facebook and Twitter driven politics in action.I definitely misunderestimated this.
jsf said:
I said from the start we should tell the EU to fk off with regards to Ireland and the whole sequencing on the talks around the WA and FTA, but the politicians went down this road and here we are.
What did we get in return? Not a lot with regards to EU-UK based on the subsequent negotiations. There has certainly been no pragmatism on the EU side with regards to trade. If UK thought the EU would be flexible to calm the waters when needed, more fool them (i doubt they did and knew confrontation would come). With Frost now in place he will know the details of what was discussed regarding pragmatic application of the agreement and is going to push back against that not being followed.
The EU is involved in everything to do with the NI protocol, there are EU staff who have full access to the systems in place and there is an EU staff contingency in NI to monitor this.
Reading between the lines you seem to be saying that the government thought that a bad deal was better than no deal.k off with regards to Ireland and the whole sequencing on the talks around the WA and FTA, but the politicians went down this road and here we are.What did we get in return? Not a lot with regards to EU-UK based on the subsequent negotiations. There has certainly been no pragmatism on the EU side with regards to trade. If UK thought the EU would be flexible to calm the waters when needed, more fool them (i doubt they did and knew confrontation would come). With Frost now in place he will know the details of what was discussed regarding pragmatic application of the agreement and is going to push back against that not being followed.
The EU is involved in everything to do with the NI protocol, there are EU staff who have full access to the systems in place and there is an EU staff contingency in NI to monitor this.
I concur.
I've long thought the UK government actively wants ongoing conflict with the EU - my only surprise is that it's come so early in the cycle as they are in danger of running out of gas if it's constant for the next 4 years.
JeffreyD said:
Reading between the lines you seem to be saying that the government thought that a bad deal was better than no deal.
I concur.
I've long thought the UK government actively wants ongoing conflict with the EU - my only surprise is that it's come so early in the cycle as they are in danger of running out of gas if it's constant for the next 4 years.
The EU took 29 days to throw a hand grenade. Welcome to the shrapnel.I concur.
I've long thought the UK government actively wants ongoing conflict with the EU - my only surprise is that it's come so early in the cycle as they are in danger of running out of gas if it's constant for the next 4 years.
DeepEnd said:
Murph7355 said:
You both appear to be saying that the political direction of the UK must not change if it risks terrorism popping up?
I'm not convinced that is a good idea.
I'm not convinced that the hard border requirement is an actual requirement either. It's a political construct.
It seems there will be some debate on the intent and implementation of the protocol with the people who were around the table discussing it. So hopefully some common sense will prevail. But where politics is concerned that is often in short supply, so who knows.
These were the political choices made by the UK in pursuit of your brexit.I'm not convinced that is a good idea.
I'm not convinced that the hard border requirement is an actual requirement either. It's a political construct.
It seems there will be some debate on the intent and implementation of the protocol with the people who were around the table discussing it. So hopefully some common sense will prevail. But where politics is concerned that is often in short supply, so who knows.
Are you saying this outcome is not what you voted for? What outcome did you expect?
Having learnt about Phytophthora infestans at school I never thought I'd see the day the UK govt was implementing trade policy that would impact food supplies in Ireland. OK it's hardly "Black 21" but the optics are rather poor.
citizensm1th said:
I take it by including yourself in the "winner" group you are finally admitting to lying about voting remain.
Super shot! Worth 3 
JeffreyD said:
So do you think this is linked to the Vaccine article 16 debacle?
Of course it is, the attitude shown there to Ireland and the NIP completely reframed everything the EU has said about the issue. The irony today was Coveney claiming the UK can't be trusted, when the situation was caused by the EU throwing our trust in their words, intentions and good faith out the window.
jsf said:
JeffreyD said:
We agreed to this border - in return for what?
We've also been told that there is no EU involvement at the checks and that it is all UK staff.
So it seems that all the EU can do to make it work is to say "no need to follow the rules" - if that's the case what concession will we have to give to make that work?
I said from the start we should tell the EU to fWe've also been told that there is no EU involvement at the checks and that it is all UK staff.
So it seems that all the EU can do to make it work is to say "no need to follow the rules" - if that's the case what concession will we have to give to make that work?
k off with regards to Ireland and the whole sequencing on the talks around the WA and FTA, but the politicians went down this road and here we are.What did we get in return? Not a lot with regards to EU-UK based on the subsequent negotiations. There has certainly been no pragmatism on the EU side with regards to trade. If UK thought the EU would be flexible to calm the waters when needed, more fool them (i doubt they did and knew confrontation would come). With Frost now in place he will know the details of what was discussed regarding pragmatic application of the agreement and is going to push back against that not being followed.
The EU is involved in everything to do with the NI protocol, there are EU staff who have full access to the systems in place and there is an EU staff contingency in NI to monitor this.
To quote Murph from a while back it was something along the lines of Mwah mwah mwah. Did I get that correct? The notion that a correct strategy would be the uk telling the eu to f
k off is many levels of ridiculous.What did you expect in return? That the eu would bend over and take it from the uk? That anyone would believe the eu are evil for fighting their corner? Get real. Frost will be put in his place yet again. Remind me how the IM bill, fishing, and refusal on LPF went. Even today the EU are considering taking the UK to the ECJ because they can.
Seriously, I know you’ve more wit than to think that the best strategy for the uk is balls to the wall confrontation. They’ll lose. Diplomacy is the way to go, pity the selection of Frost seems to indicate that lesson hasn’t been learned.
roger.mellie said:
I’ve managed to go full swing between agreeing with you and thinking you couldn’t be more wrong tonight.
To quote Murph from a while back it was something along the lines of Mwah mwah mwah. Did I get that correct? The notion that a correct strategy would be the uk telling the eu to fk off is many levels of ridiculous.
What did you expect in return? That the eu would bend over and take it from the uk? That anyone would believe the eu are evil for fighting their corner? Get real. Frost will be put in his place yet again. Remind me how the IM bill, fishing, and refusal on LPF went. Even today the EU are considering taking the UK to the ECJ because they can.
Seriously, I know you’ve more wit than to think that the best strategy for the uk is balls to the wall confrontation. They’ll lose. Diplomacy is the way to go, pity the selection of Frost seems to indicate that lesson hasn’t been learned.
I was referring to the start of the process, i thought that was clear in what i wrote.To quote Murph from a while back it was something along the lines of Mwah mwah mwah. Did I get that correct? The notion that a correct strategy would be the uk telling the eu to f
k off is many levels of ridiculous.What did you expect in return? That the eu would bend over and take it from the uk? That anyone would believe the eu are evil for fighting their corner? Get real. Frost will be put in his place yet again. Remind me how the IM bill, fishing, and refusal on LPF went. Even today the EU are considering taking the UK to the ECJ because they can.
Seriously, I know you’ve more wit than to think that the best strategy for the uk is balls to the wall confrontation. They’ll lose. Diplomacy is the way to go, pity the selection of Frost seems to indicate that lesson hasn’t been learned.
When May agreed to the sequencing of the talks, which was not in line with article 50, and then further didn't push back on a separate Ireland system, the die was set.
That is where i was stating UK should have told the EU to f
k off and not let them politicise Ireland.jsf said:
I was referring to the start of the process, i thought that was clear in what i wrote.
When May agreed to the sequencing of the talks, which was not in line with article 50, and then further didn't push back on a separate Ireland system, the die was set.
That is where i was stating UK should have told the EU to fk off and not let them politicise Ireland.
You talk as if there was another outcome from Ireland and NI that would not have been a sWhen May agreed to the sequencing of the talks, which was not in line with article 50, and then further didn't push back on a separate Ireland system, the die was set.
That is where i was stating UK should have told the EU to f
k off and not let them politicise Ireland.tshow once the decision to leave the CU and SM was taken. You don't still believe that do you?
citizensm1th said:
oh you weird little man.
i take it by including yourself in the "winner" group you are finally admitting to lying about voting remain.
Are you taking it from a proven fantasist? Because another poster claimed I linked ERG posts today, but can't get the evidence..... FYI It doesnt matter what way I or anyone voted, you mentioned Brexit wins. We do, lots thanks (apart from I'm still at work because of it, but such is my lot in life). Of course, we would have in remaining too. My vote is irrelevent, most businesses (as others have posted) are adapting.i take it by including yourself in the "winner" group you are finally admitting to lying about voting remain.
And saying you cannot change perspective on life is strange. I guess it must be nice still having Santa and the Tooth Fairy though.
What is 'weird', is your inability to string a consistent debate together for more than a post. When its pointed out, you descend into insults. FWIW (again cos its been explained, but clearly you are too dense to figure it out). I really don't care much which way it went, either way is fine. I take a more pro-Brexit persona in here given the noxious pile of vacuous morons spewing out fake news. Moreso (as you just proved with tonight's efforts), you are quite sulky b
hes quick to claim democratic affront (elsewhere) but don't understand one of its most basic concepts. Based on your input- the country was doomed either way IF the vote had gone to remain and the other 48% of the country down tools.... cos winners or disgraceful outlook? Wally.I'm really quite offended by you Wolfie, I even linked an hour+ of YouTube from a Commie explaining why the EC is on crack. I thought it would help, but ho hum.... Stay away from Von Clausewitz*, it really will make your head explode.
Oh, you usually travel in packs. Any others of the remain ninja crew joining the pile-in? Its really not fair for you to prove all the stupid, alone is it? Although DE (whilst typing this) got in and proved king wally as usual.
*or don't, its a hint.
Edited by stongle on Thursday 4th March 21:30
DeepEnd said:
You talk as if there was another outcome from Ireland and NI that would not have been a stshow once the decision to leave the CU and SM was taken.
You don't still believe that do you?
I think there were better ways to manage the border issues. Don't you?tshow once the decision to leave the CU and SM was taken. You don't still believe that do you?
I suspect those better ways will come eventually.
DeepEnd said:
As bad as the Art 16 issue was - for 3 hours - it is interesting to see how exaggerated it's role has become.
All the poor policy decisions and mistakes by the UK are completely cancelled by Art 16 for some. Imagine thinking that.
No, what the EU did was equivalent in destroying trust on the same level as coming home and finding your wife banging your best mate All the poor policy decisions and mistakes by the UK are completely cancelled by Art 16 for some. Imagine thinking that.
And clearly you have no comprehension about Ireland ... which is I suppose on a par with the rest of your beloved EU
jsf said:
DeepEnd said:
You talk as if there was another outcome from Ireland and NI that would not have been a stshow once the decision to leave the CU and SM was taken.
You don't still believe that do you?
I think there were better ways to manage the border issues. Don't you?tshow once the decision to leave the CU and SM was taken. You don't still believe that do you?
I suspect those better ways will come eventually.
It's up to you to show what the better solution is as a brexiter. You "suspect" they will come? You mean you don't know?
The fact the government hasn't delivered one suggests - perhaps - those saying the unicorns weren't coming to the NI party were right all along.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff