Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Groat said:
1. Independent Scotland with both willing EU members and participants.
2. England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle
1. Irrelevent. Scotland might be willing, but you fall way short of membership requirement. Not too mention geography of being attached to England works against you. To get even close you would need oil at around $200 a barrel +. Not to mention sterling, no debt share and a (civil) services deal with England.2. England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle
2. A very rich uncle. For its size, and non-tax haven status; once free of Scotland and Northern Ireland (Wales can have a free transfer too if it wants), GDP per capita will pass Germany.
I honestly think the level or amount of f
ks given by England if you want to shoot yourselves in the head is overly stated. We'd even load the gun for you.stongle said:
1. Irrelevent. Scotland might be willing, but you fall way short of membership requirement. Not too mention geography of being attached to England works against you. To get even close you would need oil at around $200 a barrel +. Not to mention sterling, no debt share and a (civil) services deal with England.
2. A very rich uncle. For its size, and non-tax haven status; once free of Scotland and Northern Ireland (Wales can have a free transfer too if it wants), GDP per capita will pass Germany.
I honestly think the level or amount of fks given by England if you want to shoot yourselves in the head is overly stated. We'd even load the gun for you.
Very interesting.2. A very rich uncle. For its size, and non-tax haven status; once free of Scotland and Northern Ireland (Wales can have a free transfer too if it wants), GDP per capita will pass Germany.
I honestly think the level or amount of f
ks given by England if you want to shoot yourselves in the head is overly stated. We'd even load the gun for you.jsf said:
Mortarboard said:
Indeed. Spain used to devalue the peseta regularly to benefit the tourism trade.
I always thought it interesting the UK didnt take the same advantage as Germany, and join the Euro at a similarly advantageous point. With the share of trade in services, it would have paid off in spades
M.
The ERM experiment suggested it wouldn't work for UK.I always thought it interesting the UK didnt take the same advantage as Germany, and join the Euro at a similarly advantageous point. With the share of trade in services, it would have paid off in spades
M.
Losing your ability to print your own money is a massive thing, it removes a lot of flexibility.
it's also amusing when the euro debate was taking place in the UK if you had mentioned the ability to print money. Its likely not being able to do so would have been an argument for euro membership.
Mrr T said:
jsf said:
Mortarboard said:
Indeed. Spain used to devalue the peseta regularly to benefit the tourism trade.
I always thought it interesting the UK didnt take the same advantage as Germany, and join the Euro at a similarly advantageous point. With the share of trade in services, it would have paid off in spades
M.
The ERM experiment suggested it wouldn't work for UK.I always thought it interesting the UK didnt take the same advantage as Germany, and join the Euro at a similarly advantageous point. With the share of trade in services, it would have paid off in spades
M.
Losing your ability to print your own money is a massive thing, it removes a lot of flexibility.
Groat said:
Unless - and even if - current events in Scotland implode the SNP, Independent Scotland is PROBABLY now the will of the majority here. There are many non-voters or non-SNP voters who also support independence, and a large pro-EU majority too.
Like United Ireland, Independent Scotland has been turbocharged by Brexit. And the medium term looks likely to be one of close alliance between United Ireland and Independent Scotland with both willing EU members and participants.
England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle at a family party telling stories of a past no-one's interested in, while everyone else dances and mingles and tries to avoid being collared by the desiccated old tosser. He was only ever interested in himself anyway, so he's best left to it.
I have been predicting for a long time a bad brexit will be a bonus for the independence movement. Like United Ireland, Independent Scotland has been turbocharged by Brexit. And the medium term looks likely to be one of close alliance between United Ireland and Independent Scotland with both willing EU members and participants.
England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle at a family party telling stories of a past no-one's interested in, while everyone else dances and mingles and tries to avoid being collared by the desiccated old tosser. He was only ever interested in himself anyway, so he's best left to it.
Edited by Groat on Thursday 25th February 00:25
I have been posting on the indie tread but that now just an Nippy who done it.
The problem for the nats remains any creditable plan. EU membership may be an aspiration but the paper work will take years. A better plan is to go for EEA membership and agreement with the EU on the CU.
Mrr T said:
I have been predicting for a long time a bad brexit will be a bonus for the independence movement.
I have been posting on the indie tread but that now just an Nippy who done it.
The problem for the nats remains any creditable plan. EU membership may be an aspiration but the paper work will take years. A better plan is to go for EEA membership and agreement with the EU on the CU.
All the recent reports coming from the EU are that their membership will be looked at favourably and fast tracked, unfortunately it’s all looking far more likely than before. I have been posting on the indie tread but that now just an Nippy who done it.
The problem for the nats remains any creditable plan. EU membership may be an aspiration but the paper work will take years. A better plan is to go for EEA membership and agreement with the EU on the CU.
I disagree with stongle above though (perhaps he was drunk) I wouldn’t like to see Scotland leave the U.K. at all and think it would be very bad for rUK if it happens.
Odd that U.K. leaving the U.K. and prioritising people’s view of sovereignty over economic success is justified over brexit but Scotland doing it is “shooting themselves in the head”
Any Scottish nationalist that said they’re not doing it for economic reasons and they’re ignoring any short term economic damage and they won’t be able to judge if it was a success for decades would rightly be scoffed at.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 25th February 08:26
El stovey said:
All the recent reports coming from the EU are that their membership will be looked at favourably and fast tracked, unfortunately it’s all looking far more likely than before.
I disagree with stongle above though (perhaps he was drunk) I wouldn’t like to see Scotland leave the U.K. at all and think it would be very bad for rUK if it happens.
A certain type of Englishman would certainly celebrate the Scottish independence.I disagree with stongle above though (perhaps he was drunk) I wouldn’t like to see Scotland leave the U.K. at all and think it would be very bad for rUK if it happens.
There's quite alot of them about.
DeepEnd said:
Wills2 said:
More dreadful news today regarding farming and fishing Brexit really has screwed the poster boys of Brexit, in one piece on the news they interview a bee importer who cannot get the bees into the country he's spent 300k on them, he voted leave and said he'd been had and lied to as he said if we don't have the bees we won't have crops...
What an utter st storm the leavers have created, the sooner CV-19 is dealt with the better as that "fog" will lift and the scope of the real failure will be revealed.
Yep.What an utter s
t storm the leavers have created, the sooner CV-19 is dealt with the better as that "fog" will lift and the scope of the real failure will be revealed. From 16:30 - channel 4 news 24 Feb
https://www.channel4.com/programmes/channel-4-news...
One of the things that really shows the politicians had no idea what they were really doing and what the impact would be is that Starmer & co actually voted in support of this and has opted to keep quiet - for now at least. Yes, it was to avoid a no deal but even so.
Interesting insight into the bee market. £300,000 worth of bees, imported from Italy - the keeper (brexit voter now livid, sold a lie etc.) but looking to get the bees into the UK via Eire, NI, then UK. And they appear critical for pollination of our fruit industry - so many links.
Pig farmer sales down 50%, thinks he'll lose £300k this year and thinks 15% of his industry will fold at this rate.
Cheese bloke cheesed off.
Edited by DeepEnd on Wednesday 24th February 22:35
What is the effect on the Italian bee sales market ?
It’s not just the U.K. that suffers
And as an aside, why can’t bees be harvested in the U.K. ? Why does he have to import them ?
stongle said:
Groat said:
1. Independent Scotland with both willing EU members and participants.
2. England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle
1. Irrelevent. Scotland might be willing, but you fall way short of membership requirement. Not too mention geography of being attached to England works against you. To get even close you would need oil at around $200 a barrel +. Not to mention sterling, no debt share and a (civil) services deal with England.2. England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle
2. A very rich uncle. For its size, and non-tax haven status; once free of Scotland and Northern Ireland (Wales can have a free transfer too if it wants), GDP per capita will pass Germany.
I honestly think the level or amount of f
ks given by England if you want to shoot yourselves in the head is overly stated. We'd even load the gun for you.Speaking of tax havens; London is the spider in a web of tax havens. Plus it's has attracted many wealthy individuals due to very low taxes and other benefits. Let alone the impact of the deregulation policy since Thatcher in the eighties.
Another typical Brexiteer fan favorite: Germany. Somehow it's always draged into any argument. Germany's GDP per capita would be higher as well if you take away Eastern Germany.
And you mention size; among the 1st world economy's there aren't many nations with a higher population than the UK (USA, Japan, Germany). However many 2nd and 3rd world nations do not only have a larger (and faster growing) population but also faster growing economy. So the world order as we know it will change over time. Besides "old world" countries like France and England have already seen their influence in the world diminshed since WW2.
Groat said:
DeepEnd has also posted a link to it above. https://www.channel4.com/programmes/channel-4-news...
Well worth a look. 3 real agribusiness people exemplifying typical negative issues 10s of 1000s of others in many industries and occupations (both in the UK and the EU) must also be experiencing. And of course the negative spreads through their workforces and ancillaries etc etc so in the end it runs to millions impacted and affected including, of course, their customers.
On a completely different sector, I was chatting today with a pal who works with promoters of national, european and world tours for bands of all sizes. Obviously he's hardly turned a coin for almost a year now, including not a penny in UK. But he reckons once lockdown is over and normal service is restored a European tour is going to involve TEN TIMES the amount of bureaucracy it did pre-Brexit, with all the commensurate delay and hurdle-jumping that'll bring with it. Sadly the biggest hurdles will be for the smallest acts, so the days of 4 guys living out of a transit doing 20 gigs in 30 days round the EU are probably numbered.
How did the Beatles manage to get to Berlin in a van then? Well worth a look. 3 real agribusiness people exemplifying typical negative issues 10s of 1000s of others in many industries and occupations (both in the UK and the EU) must also be experiencing. And of course the negative spreads through their workforces and ancillaries etc etc so in the end it runs to millions impacted and affected including, of course, their customers.
On a completely different sector, I was chatting today with a pal who works with promoters of national, european and world tours for bands of all sizes. Obviously he's hardly turned a coin for almost a year now, including not a penny in UK. But he reckons once lockdown is over and normal service is restored a European tour is going to involve TEN TIMES the amount of bureaucracy it did pre-Brexit, with all the commensurate delay and hurdle-jumping that'll bring with it. Sadly the biggest hurdles will be for the smallest acts, so the days of 4 guys living out of a transit doing 20 gigs in 30 days round the EU are probably numbered.
Edited by Groat on Wednesday 24th February 23:54
DeltonaS said:
stongle said:
Groat said:
1. Independent Scotland with both willing EU members and participants.
2. England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle
1. Irrelevent. Scotland might be willing, but you fall way short of membership requirement. Not too mention geography of being attached to England works against you. To get even close you would need oil at around $200 a barrel +. Not to mention sterling, no debt share and a (civil) services deal with England.2. England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle
2. A very rich uncle. For its size, and non-tax haven status; once free of Scotland and Northern Ireland (Wales can have a free transfer too if it wants), GDP per capita will pass Germany.
I honestly think the level or amount of f
ks given by England if you want to shoot yourselves in the head is overly stated. We'd even load the gun for you.El stovey said:
I disagree with stongle above though (perhaps he was drunk) I wouldn’t like to see Scotland leave the U.K. at all and think it would be very bad for rUK if it happens.
Drunk? No. Brutally honest, yes.Most of you seem to live in a dream state. Where edge cases are the norm, and basic maths and worse common sense fail to function.
The Scottish economy is not viable on its own. It employs too many in the public sector for starts (which England would have to repatriate). The rest of the economic ask, its nuts. And not agreed by anyone else than the SNP. As to what the EU says (who exactly - another dream?), that will change once they get into the huts of it.
Regardless its economic suicide (for Scotland) I'd still let them have the vote. The fact pattern has changed enough since 2014, EU support is much higher there than England.
DeltonaS said:
stongle said:
Groat said:
1. Independent Scotland with both willing EU members and participants.
2. England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle
1. Irrelevent. Scotland might be willing, but you fall way short of membership requirement. Not too mention geography of being attached to England works against you. To get even close you would need oil at around $200 a barrel +. Not to mention sterling, no debt share and a (civil) services deal with England.2. England's going to be left like a crazy old uncle
2. A very rich uncle. For its size, and non-tax haven status; once free of Scotland and Northern Ireland (Wales can have a free transfer too if it wants), GDP per capita will pass Germany.
I honestly think the level or amount of f
ks given by England if you want to shoot yourselves in the head is overly stated. We'd even load the gun for you.Speaking of tax havens; London is the spider in a web of tax havens. Plus it's has attracted many wealthy individuals due to very low taxes and other benefits. Let alone the impact of the deregulation policy since Thatcher in the eighties.
Another typical Brexiteer fan favorite: Germany. Somehow it's always draged into any argument. Germany's GDP per capita would be higher as well if you take away Eastern Germany.
And you mention size; among the 1st world economy's there aren't many nations with a higher population than the UK (USA, Japan, Germany). However many 2nd and 3rd world nations do not only have a larger (and faster growing) population but also faster growing economy. So the world order as we know it will change over time. Besides "old world" countries like France and England have already seen their influence in the world diminshed since WW2.
ks - particularly Tax Havens (Holland is one) and regs. Usual tripe.Actually, its worse than tripe. There is a very serious issue with some posters who can't distinguish basic words (like could and should) or make up imaginary quotes and content....
Edited by stongle on Thursday 25th February 08:51
Mrr T said:
Nonsense. The problem for the UK in the ERM was it joined at a rate where it was over valued. When the economics demonstrated this the target was set for speculators. If the UK had bitten the bullet and realigned we might now be part of the euro. Not saying that would be good but it's a funny old world.
it's also amusing when the euro debate was taking place in the UK if you had mentioned the ability to print money. Its likely not being able to do so would have been an argument for euro membership.
Most people dont understand the benefits of having your own currency. Most saw the euro as a way to avoid changing money at the airport.it's also amusing when the euro debate was taking place in the UK if you had mentioned the ability to print money. Its likely not being able to do so would have been an argument for euro membership.
Leaving the ERM led to the UK economy going on a major tear from its previous disastrous period whilst in it.
It's a bit O/T for the thread but this Scotland EU dream gets mentioned.
Does the reverie involve Scotland joining as a net contributor with its wallet out, or joining as a net recipient with its hand out?
Would the EU admit Scotland anyway? The discussion from SNP/Remain suggests it's a foregone conclusion, slip the paperwork in ('do a Greece'?) and the EU will fall over themselves in a rush to open the door
Dreams can come true but most don't.
Does the reverie involve Scotland joining as a net contributor with its wallet out, or joining as a net recipient with its hand out?
Would the EU admit Scotland anyway? The discussion from SNP/Remain suggests it's a foregone conclusion, slip the paperwork in ('do a Greece'?) and the EU will fall over themselves in a rush to open the door
Dreams can come true but most don't.
DeltonaS said:
And you mention size; among the 1st world economy's there aren't many nations with a higher population than the UK (USA, Japan, Germany). However many 2nd and 3rd world nations do not only have a larger (and faster growing) population but also faster growing economy. So the world order as we know it will change over time. Besides "old world" countries like France and England have already seen their influence in the world diminshed since WW2.
Thanks for backing the decision to reduce reliance on the dying EU and starting down the path to trading with the growing parts of the world on better terms. You got there in the end.Earthdweller said:
Groat said:
DeepEnd has also posted a link to it above. https://www.channel4.com/programmes/channel-4-news...
Well worth a look. 3 real agribusiness people exemplifying typical negative issues 10s of 1000s of others in many industries and occupations (both in the UK and the EU) must also be experiencing. And of course the negative spreads through their workforces and ancillaries etc etc so in the end it runs to millions impacted and affected including, of course, their customers.
On a completely different sector, I was chatting today with a pal who works with promoters of national, european and world tours for bands of all sizes. Obviously he's hardly turned a coin for almost a year now, including not a penny in UK. But he reckons once lockdown is over and normal service is restored a European tour is going to involve TEN TIMES the amount of bureaucracy it did pre-Brexit, with all the commensurate delay and hurdle-jumping that'll bring with it. Sadly the biggest hurdles will be for the smallest acts, so the days of 4 guys living out of a transit doing 20 gigs in 30 days round the EU are probably numbered.
How did the Beatles manage to get to Berlin in a van then? Well worth a look. 3 real agribusiness people exemplifying typical negative issues 10s of 1000s of others in many industries and occupations (both in the UK and the EU) must also be experiencing. And of course the negative spreads through their workforces and ancillaries etc etc so in the end it runs to millions impacted and affected including, of course, their customers.
On a completely different sector, I was chatting today with a pal who works with promoters of national, european and world tours for bands of all sizes. Obviously he's hardly turned a coin for almost a year now, including not a penny in UK. But he reckons once lockdown is over and normal service is restored a European tour is going to involve TEN TIMES the amount of bureaucracy it did pre-Brexit, with all the commensurate delay and hurdle-jumping that'll bring with it. Sadly the biggest hurdles will be for the smallest acts, so the days of 4 guys living out of a transit doing 20 gigs in 30 days round the EU are probably numbered.
Edited by Groat on Wednesday 24th February 23:54
turbobloke said:
Mrr T said:
jsf said:
Mortarboard said:
Indeed. Spain used to devalue the peseta regularly to benefit the tourism trade.
I always thought it interesting the UK didnt take the same advantage as Germany, and join the Euro at a similarly advantageous point. With the share of trade in services, it would have paid off in spades
M.
The ERM experiment suggested it wouldn't work for UK.I always thought it interesting the UK didnt take the same advantage as Germany, and join the Euro at a similarly advantageous point. With the share of trade in services, it would have paid off in spades
M.
Losing your ability to print your own money is a massive thing, it removes a lot of flexibility.
Mrr T said:
turbobloke said:
Mrr T said:
jsf said:
Mortarboard said:
Indeed. Spain used to devalue the peseta regularly to benefit the tourism trade.
I always thought it interesting the UK didnt take the same advantage as Germany, and join the Euro at a similarly advantageous point. With the share of trade in services, it would have paid off in spades
M.
The ERM experiment suggested it wouldn't work for UK.I always thought it interesting the UK didnt take the same advantage as Germany, and join the Euro at a similarly advantageous point. With the share of trade in services, it would have paid off in spades
M.
Losing your ability to print your own money is a massive thing, it removes a lot of flexibility.
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