Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
PeteinSQ said:
crankedup said:
Exactly, if you have the skills required by the Nation you are applying to work within. It’s called a points based entry scheme or something like that, it amounts to the same outcome. It’s not a scheme of one in all in, as is the EU FOM nonsense.
It is a lot more difficult now though. A colleague of mine applied for an internal role at our Australian affiliate but was told that she couldn't be hired if there was any chance they could find someone locally. Someone else was told the same about the US office. I assume this sort of thing will start to happen across the EU too and this clearly limits opportunities.This is obviously true because you're celebrating the UK opportunities for EU nationals being restricted and clearly it is reciprocal.
blueg33 said:
paul0843 said:
What I am trying to say is that from my experience,rates paid in construction are no way kept low by FOM,maybe even the opposite.
Precisely. That’s my point too. "My late husband was a construction worker who wore himself out and ruined his health doing hard, and often dangerous, work for many years. I know that wages went down after the influx of cheap labour from eastern Europe. But, far from this making him anti-immigrant, my husband never blamed immigrants for this, but greedy employers who have recruited workers en masse from eastern Europe."
"Contrary to what an emeritus professor of sociology may choose to believe, there are multiple academic studies showing that uncontrolled EU immigration lowers wage rates at the lower end of the labour market."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/20/w...
"So, were fears that the new points system could limit immigration prove to be detrimental for the construction industry?"
"The new points system appears to have simplified the process of recruitment of overseas skilled workers to meet the demands of the industry. The government has lowered certain requirements for skilled workers and to reduce fear of global investors starting to take their money out of the UK market."
https://www.ukconstructionmedia.co.uk/features/bre...
DeejRC said:
It happened before 2016. I know right, like, shock! Horror!
You've misunderstood what I'm saying. What has always applied in the US and Australia now applies across the EU where it didn't before. I know a lot of people in my industry that have gone to work in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany. This will now be much more difficult. But then I suppose British brick layers won't care and maybe why should they. PeteinSQ said:
DeejRC said:
It happened before 2016. I know right, like, shock! Horror!
You've misunderstood what I'm saying. What has always applied in the US and Australia now applies across the EU where it didn't before. I know a lot of people in my industry that have gone to work in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany. This will now be much more difficult. But then I suppose British brick layers won't care and maybe why should they. Anyway, the same situation for working in places like NL, DE and BE exist now as they did last year and prior to 2016. I signed two contracts on the same day last week in the EU and UK, both of them for companies I had done work for in previous yrs. The only contract which changed was the UK one, as I had them rewrite it for IR35.
It remains no more nor less difficult to land the contracts for Brits inside the EU in 2021, as it was in 2020 or 19 or 18 or 17 or 16 or 15. The situation is in fact MORE favourable to do so than prior to 16 as the fx rate is so much more f
king favourable! Trust me, 1.45 was horrific.There is a sidebar to this with Germany. A lot/most Brits working contracts in Germany started to leave post 2015 due to the change in their employment law and AUG. Effectively it was a German IR35, but more Germanic. I would estimate about 90% got out, it killed the rates and forced you to effectively accept permie contracts or get out. And nobody goes to Germany for that!
If you have the skills, you can get the job. Same as it was before.
turbobloke said:
Views differ, in wider commentary as well as on PH.
"My late husband was a construction worker who wore himself out and ruined his health doing hard, and often dangerous, work for many years. I know that wages went down after the influx of cheap labour from eastern Europe. But, far from this making him anti-immigrant, my husband never blamed immigrants for this, but greedy employers who have recruited workers en masse from eastern Europe."
"Contrary to what an emeritus professor of sociology may choose to believe, there are multiple academic studies showing that uncontrolled EU immigration lowers wage rates at the lower end of the labour market."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/20/w...
"So, were fears that the new points system could limit immigration prove to be detrimental for the construction industry?"
"The new points system appears to have simplified the process of recruitment of overseas skilled workers to meet the demands of the industry. The government has lowered certain requirements for skilled workers and to reduce fear of global investors starting to take their money out of the UK market."
https://www.ukconstructionmedia.co.uk/features/bre...
The guardian link is just letters from randoms. Could be anyone. Jill is on about "collective bargaining". "My late husband was a construction worker who wore himself out and ruined his health doing hard, and often dangerous, work for many years. I know that wages went down after the influx of cheap labour from eastern Europe. But, far from this making him anti-immigrant, my husband never blamed immigrants for this, but greedy employers who have recruited workers en masse from eastern Europe."
"Contrary to what an emeritus professor of sociology may choose to believe, there are multiple academic studies showing that uncontrolled EU immigration lowers wage rates at the lower end of the labour market."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/20/w...
"So, were fears that the new points system could limit immigration prove to be detrimental for the construction industry?"
"The new points system appears to have simplified the process of recruitment of overseas skilled workers to meet the demands of the industry. The government has lowered certain requirements for skilled workers and to reduce fear of global investors starting to take their money out of the UK market."
https://www.ukconstructionmedia.co.uk/features/bre...
I don't think anyone doubts the documented small impact at the bottom of the unskilled labour market - but it is very small and limited and something to aspire to progress from in many cases - as brexiters are often saying we need to adapt and thrive. Why should brexiters not apply this logic to the unskilled labour market?
The evidence is that such wage suppression is not relevant to the e.g. skilled building trade at all - infact the second link shows how they are dropping existing rules to try and get a UK worker first (28 day rule) - brexit is stripping away these existing provisions to favour UK workers to counter the risk of serious labour shortfalls!
Edited by DeepEnd on Sunday 11th April 10:33
DeepEnd said:
turbobloke said:
Views differ, in wider commentary as well as on PH.
"My late husband was a construction worker who wore himself out and ruined his health doing hard, and often dangerous, work for many years. I know that wages went down after the influx of cheap labour from eastern Europe. But, far from this making him anti-immigrant, my husband never blamed immigrants for this, but greedy employers who have recruited workers en masse from eastern Europe."
"Contrary to what an emeritus professor of sociology may choose to believe, there are multiple academic studies showing that uncontrolled EU immigration lowers wage rates at the lower end of the labour market."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/20/w...
"So, were fears that the new points system could limit immigration prove to be detrimental for the construction industry?"
"The new points system appears to have simplified the process of recruitment of overseas skilled workers to meet the demands of the industry. The government has lowered certain requirements for skilled workers and to reduce fear of global investors starting to take their money out of the UK market."
https://www.ukconstructionmedia.co.uk/features/bre...
The guardian link is just letters from randoms. "My late husband was a construction worker who wore himself out and ruined his health doing hard, and often dangerous, work for many years. I know that wages went down after the influx of cheap labour from eastern Europe. But, far from this making him anti-immigrant, my husband never blamed immigrants for this, but greedy employers who have recruited workers en masse from eastern Europe."
"Contrary to what an emeritus professor of sociology may choose to believe, there are multiple academic studies showing that uncontrolled EU immigration lowers wage rates at the lower end of the labour market."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/20/w...
"So, were fears that the new points system could limit immigration prove to be detrimental for the construction industry?"
"The new points system appears to have simplified the process of recruitment of overseas skilled workers to meet the demands of the industry. The government has lowered certain requirements for skilled workers and to reduce fear of global investors starting to take their money out of the UK market."
https://www.ukconstructionmedia.co.uk/features/bre...
In the above post I said:
Views differ, in wider commentary as well as on PH.
Like PH, and like you putting your view on here. Yours view is, as you say, just a random view, to which you're entitled.The views I quoted were from a person with direct family experience of impacts of FOM on construction rates over the years, and from the construction industry. Not entirely random. From here those views are more compelling than yours.
PeteinSQ said:
It is a lot more difficult now though. A colleague of mine applied for an internal role at our Australian affiliate but was told that she couldn't be hired if there was any chance they could find someone locally. Someone else was told the same about the US office. I assume this sort of thing will start to happen across the EU too and this clearly limits opportunities.
This is obviously true because you're celebrating the UK opportunities for EU nationals being restricted and clearly it is reciprocal.
Why is that a "bad thing"?This is obviously true because you're celebrating the UK opportunities for EU nationals being restricted and clearly it is reciprocal.
If there are two identical candidates for a post in country 'x' only one is a citizen of 'x', why does it make any sense at all to choose the other?
The key thing is for citizens of non-x to skill up, get experience and ensure they are head and shoulders the better choice.
Then, in selecting non-x country x should use the opportunity for its citizens to learn.
There are 27 nations that are subject to FoM... If it's such a universally "good thing" why aren't more doing it?
Removing it does NOT mean no movement. It means controlled movement. One hopes control according to a nation's needs. Win win.
blueg33 said:
crankedup said:
Now that most of the immigrants have gone home I would agree that trades are now again reasonably paid. 
Except that they have been well paid for the 30 years I have been in the industry. When I was a student I used to labour on building sites, unskilled no trade just some youthful energy, I earned more than many of my school mates who went and got better regarded jobs.
During my time in the industry I have seen no evidence that qualified trades from the EU have depressed rates.
What I see now though is reduced volumes in construction because the reduction in the availability of trades is causing issues. That’s why we are moving investment and jobs out of the UK.
Reduced construction volumes will flow through to an increasing housing crisis, increasing costs result in increasing prices and less money available through s106 for community etc.
Do you run training schemes or rely upon others to train workers in the skills required. My lad was employed as an apprentice by a self employed electrician who paid him and permitted day release to learn the technical side of the job.
turbobloke said:
Like PH, and like you putting your view on here. Yours view is, as you say, just a random view, to which you're entitled.
The views I quoted were from a person with direct family experience of impacts of FOM on construction rates over the years, and from the construction industry. Not entirely random. From here those views are more compelling than yours.
But not as compelling as those posting here with 30+ years in construction saying it is not the case. The views I quoted were from a person with direct family experience of impacts of FOM on construction rates over the years, and from the construction industry. Not entirely random. From here those views are more compelling than yours.
I'm going with them, not you, or Cranked's swarming invaders or "collective bargaining" Jill.
Jill "collectively spouting fake nonsense from anti-EU sites" seems rather more likely than any reality.
barryrs said:
blueg33 said:
£50k take home pa, probably £80k pa gross. Nearly 3 x average salary.
I’ve been in the construction industry for circa 25 years and have many friends and family that are in the trade. I know none that earn anywhere near what you suggest.As an example, the plasterer that skimmed my house was on a meterage rate approximately half what I was earning in my holidays while at uni in the late 90’s. I know lots of brickies on great lay rates when they can work but as they work is weather dependent the take home average isn’t that great.
The guys I know making big money are the subcontractors employing literally hundreds of “self employed” tradesmen.
If he could have earnt any where near the numbers quoted he wouldn’t have had a complaint.
DeepEnd said:
turbobloke said:
Like PH, and like you putting your view on here. Yours view is, as you say, just a random view, to which you're entitled.
The views I quoted were from a person with direct family experience of impacts of FOM on construction rates over the years, and from the construction industry. Not entirely random. From here those views are more compelling than yours.
But not as compelling as those posting here with 30+ years in construction saying it is not the case. The views I quoted were from a person with direct family experience of impacts of FOM on construction rates over the years, and from the construction industry. Not entirely random. From here those views are more compelling than yours.
I'm going with them, not you, or Cranked's swarming invaders or "collective bargaining" Jill.
Jill "collectively spouting fake nonsense from anti-EU sites" seems rather more likely than any reality.
DeepEnd said:
The guardian link is just letters from randoms. Could be anyone. Jill is on about "collective bargaining".
I don't think anyone doubts the documented small impact at the bottom of the unskilled labour market - but it is very small and limited and something to aspire to progress from in many cases - as brexiters are often saying we need to adapt and thrive. Why should brexiters not apply this logic to the unskilled labour market?
Seems like they’re saying other people and other industries need to adapt and thrive, when it’s trades being affected they want protectionism and intervention.I don't think anyone doubts the documented small impact at the bottom of the unskilled labour market - but it is very small and limited and something to aspire to progress from in many cases - as brexiters are often saying we need to adapt and thrive. Why should brexiters not apply this logic to the unskilled labour market?
A freer market, competition and low prices for the consumer are all awesome as long as it’s not due to competition where they work(ed)
Obviously they could have adapted and thrived themselves and upskilled and gotten jobs that wouldn’t be competing against cheaper foreign workers rather than just blaming the swarms of Poles and invading immigrants.
Plus you can always vote for brexit and then just retire somewhere cheaper abroad and not have to worry about any of it.
blueg33 said:
paul0843 said:
What I am trying to say is that from my experience,rates paid in construction are no way kept low by FOM,maybe even the opposite.
Precisely. That’s my point too. Murph7355 said:
Why is that a "bad thing"?
If there are two identical candidates for a post in country 'x' only one is a citizen of 'x', why does it make any sense at all to choose the other?
The key thing is for citizens of non-x to skill up, get experience and ensure they are head and shoulders the better choice.
Then, in selecting non-x country x should use the opportunity for its citizens to learn.
There are 27 nations that are subject to FoM... If it's such a universally "good thing" why aren't more doing it?
Removing it does NOT mean no movement. It means controlled movement. One hopes control according to a nation's needs. Win win.
It narrows the opportunities and life experiences that British people can now have. I would personally love to go and work on the continent one day. That's less likely now. Why would I celebrate that?If there are two identical candidates for a post in country 'x' only one is a citizen of 'x', why does it make any sense at all to choose the other?
The key thing is for citizens of non-x to skill up, get experience and ensure they are head and shoulders the better choice.
Then, in selecting non-x country x should use the opportunity for its citizens to learn.
There are 27 nations that are subject to FoM... If it's such a universally "good thing" why aren't more doing it?
Removing it does NOT mean no movement. It means controlled movement. One hopes control according to a nation's needs. Win win.
DeepEnd said:
turbobloke said:
Like PH, and like you putting your view on here. Yours view is, as you say, just a random view, to which you're entitled.
The views I quoted were from a person with direct family experience of impacts of FOM on construction rates over the years, and from the construction industry. Not entirely random. From here those views are more compelling than yours.
But not as compelling as those posting here with 30+ years in construction saying it is not the case. The views I quoted were from a person with direct family experience of impacts of FOM on construction rates over the years, and from the construction industry. Not entirely random. From here those views are more compelling than yours.
I'm going with them, not you, or Cranked's swarming invaders or "collective bargaining" Jill.
Jill "collectively spouting fake nonsense from anti-EU sites" seems rather more likely than any reality.
Not really the biggest surprise of the day! Like every else commented upon in here, nobody cares
what is considered opinion, factual statements or plain old fashioned trolling. The only element that does matter is that we are out of the wretched EU.
Vanden Saab said:
Strange that you ignore others actually working in the trades who say the opposite. As i understand it blue is a developer not a tradesman although he may have been in the past. If I was a developer or even a contractor I would also be mourning the loss of FoM.
If I read your last posts correctly you are saying you/your trade is on way more than £50k so what are we to take from that? crankedup said:
Not really the biggest surprise of the day! Like every else commented upon in here, nobody cares
what is considered opinion, factual statements or plain old fashioned trolling. The only element that does matter is that we are out of the wretched EU.
How is the EU actually affecting your life in any way at all now?
paul0843 said:
blueg33 said:
barryrs said:
blueg33 said:
£50k take home pa, probably £80k pa gross. Nearly 3 x average salary.
I’ve been in the construction industry for circa 25 years and have many friends and family that are in the trade. I know none that earn anywhere near what you suggest.As an example, the plasterer that skimmed my house was on a meterage rate approximately half what I was earning in my holidays while at uni in the late 90’s. I know lots of brickies on great lay rates when they can work but as they work is weather dependent the take home average isn’t that great.
The guys I know making big money are the subcontractors employing literally hundreds of “self employed” tradesmen.
Typically for a skilled tradesman I think the gross is around £50k still nearly double the aversge uk salary. Sometimes we employ trades directly. A decent finishing foreman with a trade background will be on quite a bit more and site managers more again.
Obviously young people who are yet to build experience earn less, as in any other job.
I am aware of site managers on some jobs we are on being paid £380- £400 a day gross .
My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
El stovey said:
crankedup said:
Not really the biggest surprise of the day! Like every else commented upon in here, nobody cares
what is considered opinion, factual statements or plain old fashioned trolling. The only element that does matter is that we are out of the wretched EU.
How is the EU actually affecting your life in any way at all now?
Yes the EU is still causing problems, those same problems that you have been moaning about. So we seem to agree the EU is a PIA.
When our Country finally smooths out the trading problems with the EU my complaining will stop.
I’m not sure that the EU will fail completely, but I think it’s more likely then not.
What is your pov on the possible collapse of the EU, do you see it surviving given all of the problems it has stacking up?
Murph7355 said:
Why is that a "bad thing"?
If there are two identical candidates for a post in country 'x' only one is a citizen of 'x', why does it make any sense at all to choose the other?
The key thing is for citizens of non-x to skill up, get experience and ensure they are head and shoulders the better choice.
Then, in selecting non-x country x should use the opportunity for its citizens to learn.
There are 27 nations that are subject to FoM... If it's such a universally "good thing" why aren't more doing it?
Removing it does NOT mean no movement. It means controlled movement. One hopes control according to a nation's needs. Win win.
Murph you normally make a good point but that algebra is crap If there are two identical candidates for a post in country 'x' only one is a citizen of 'x', why does it make any sense at all to choose the other?
The key thing is for citizens of non-x to skill up, get experience and ensure they are head and shoulders the better choice.
Then, in selecting non-x country x should use the opportunity for its citizens to learn.
There are 27 nations that are subject to FoM... If it's such a universally "good thing" why aren't more doing it?
Removing it does NOT mean no movement. It means controlled movement. One hopes control according to a nation's needs. Win win.
If x is greater than y but y is "indigenous" and y gets promoted to the power of whatever inconsequential factor that means they get the job over x then the company that would have been better off hiring x got screwed
Many of the FoM disputers on this thread are not arguing your point that X should skill up as they already have. They're arguing that who cares, Y is local.
On the argument of it only being 27 countries "subject" (your term not mine) to FoM, if it was so bad why are many still hoping to get in line? Also FoM will be on the agenda when the UK goes to do deals with the likes of India and other countries. It hasn't gone away you know.
Regardless, it looks like none are arguing whether X or Y should get the job. They're arguing over whether X being better than Y is justifiable in reducing X's rates based on where they're from. Lol.
Edited by roger.mellie on Sunday 11th April 11:17
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