Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
JeffreyD said:
Welshbeef said:
Lots of vote stay banged the drum about FOM and needing Eastern European resources for our beloved NHS.
It’s got everything to do with it.
I presume you are attempting to write in English and I think I understand what you are saying.It’s got everything to do with it.
The EU has 3rd world members now - every day is a school day.
chrispmartha said:
crankedup said:
IIRC major changes were made during 1994 which also linked in, unsurprisingly to the 1992 Maastricht treaty. I do recall much consternation regarding the changes at that time. Government was also adopting the policy of broadening youngsters life chances by extending opportunity for Uni degrees.
But when were they stopped?And for that matter when were they started again?
And why did being in the EU stop us changing or stopping/starting apprenticeships?
These schemes were nothing to do with the EU.
El stovey said:
In my work (aviation) the amount of apprenticeship schemes has been increasing since the mid 90s certainly many of our engineers came though on apprenticeship schemes. Same in my wife’s work (large multinational) where companies are recruiting from school leavers and university there’s all kinds of apprenticeship schemes for people even those with few qualifications.
These schemes were nothing to do with the EU.
So they weren’t stopped then?These schemes were nothing to do with the EU.
chrispmartha said:
El stovey said:
In my work (aviation) the amount of apprenticeship schemes has been increasing since the mid 90s certainly many of our engineers came though on apprenticeship schemes. Same in my wife’s work (large multinational) where companies are recruiting from school leavers and university there’s all kinds of apprenticeship schemes for people even those with few qualifications.
These schemes were nothing to do with the EU.
So they weren’t stopped then?These schemes were nothing to do with the EU.
crankedup said:
Welshbeef said:
crankedup said:
The main problem with finding good trades is the simple fact that we in the U.K. stopped the apprentice schemes in favour of Uni education with a degree at the end. We now are bearing the fruits of that particular bit of Government interference with far to many young people holding worthless degrees and a lack of good qualified trades people.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
One thing remainers never understood the foreign nurses and drs they wanted to keep coming to the U.K. from poor 3rd or second world countries. Those countries who had trained up nurses and drs at tax payer costs for their own need yet remainers were happy for those countries to be pillaged for U.K. benefit (a bit like colonialism all over again). Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
.To paraphrase his piss taking. One thing leavers never understood is how much they benefitted from Drs and Nurses from across the world coming to the UK and how little difference leaving the EU will make as the bulk of them came from places like India and the Philippines. The UK has long taken advantage of importing qualified labour from more disadvantaged countries and will continue to do so regardless of EU membership. It has nothing to do with leave vs remain, the exploitation long predates EU membership
Iv'e noticed that statistically the first generation of 20s to 30 year old poles, lithuanians and romanians who came over here 5-15 years ago are all good workers. The problem lies in their kids the 2nd generations who were children when they first came here (or turning 16,17,18 now and grew up with UK kids UK way of life/childhood. They are f
king useless worse than the same age UK
king useless worse than the same age UK roger.mellie said:
Jesus cranked, you're agreeing with welsh, I hope he's normally on the windup rather than being the idiot many of his political posts would imply, I suspect he is on the wind up. Either way, not a good look agreeing without qualification .
To paraphrase his piss taking. One thing leavers never understood is how much they benefitted from Drs and Nurses from across the world coming to the UK and how little difference leaving the EU will make as the bulk of them came from places like India and the Philippines. The UK has long taken advantage of importing qualified labour from more disadvantaged countries and will continue to do so regardless of EU membership. It has nothing to do with leave vs remain, the exploitation long predates EU membership
Welshbeef is pretty much "accidental techie dave" .To paraphrase his piss taking. One thing leavers never understood is how much they benefitted from Drs and Nurses from across the world coming to the UK and how little difference leaving the EU will make as the bulk of them came from places like India and the Philippines. The UK has long taken advantage of importing qualified labour from more disadvantaged countries and will continue to do so regardless of EU membership. It has nothing to do with leave vs remain, the exploitation long predates EU membership
vulture1 said:
Iv'e noticed that statistically the first generation of 20s to 30 year old poles, lithuanians and romanians who came over here 5-15 years ago are all good workers. The problem lies in their kids the 2nd generations who were children when they first came here (or turning 16,17,18 now and grew up with UK kids UK way of life/childhood. They are fking useless worse than the same age UK
You mean they have become naturalised/gone native/indigenous? king useless worse than the same age UK blueg33 said:
crankedup said:
Your full and comprehensive post is appreciated.
I can’t change the situation that my family found themselves in but as a result of that situation he upped his skill levels and moved on and up. Having said that he also has recently gained his Electrical Safety Certificate which, as to will know, qualifies him to inspect and Certificate electrical works. For example Landlords premises etc. He earns about £350 inspecting a three bedroom unit
which is about 3 or 4 hours work.
But his main employment is, as I have previously stated, for a Pharma’ Company in Cambridge.
I agree that many of the young people see that getting their hands dirty in a days work is not what they want. They have been indoctrinated it seems to wish for a clean office environment and a computer or two on their desk. The industry has much work to do in helping to dissuade youngsters from this attitude, along with Government.
One area of work that was crap he found was in Carillion, no doubt you have heard of them. Not quite as rosy as your response suggests.
You may have gathered that I take my job and the construction/development industry very seriously, but I am bot blinkered enough to think that there are no issues. Interestingly you mention Carillion, who failed spectacularly, they are a contractor that I never worked with, but if they had worked for us they would have been contractually obliged to follow our requirements. The reason we apply the contractual obligation is to make sure that things happen.I can’t change the situation that my family found themselves in but as a result of that situation he upped his skill levels and moved on and up. Having said that he also has recently gained his Electrical Safety Certificate which, as to will know, qualifies him to inspect and Certificate electrical works. For example Landlords premises etc. He earns about £350 inspecting a three bedroom unit
which is about 3 or 4 hours work.
But his main employment is, as I have previously stated, for a Pharma’ Company in Cambridge.
I agree that many of the young people see that getting their hands dirty in a days work is not what they want. They have been indoctrinated it seems to wish for a clean office environment and a computer or two on their desk. The industry has much work to do in helping to dissuade youngsters from this attitude, along with Government.
One area of work that was crap he found was in Carillion, no doubt you have heard of them. Not quite as rosy as your response suggests.
As I previously mentioned we are moving much of our production to offsite manufacture, a nice warm factory environment, but we are still struggling with trades and there will always be works needed on site. Brickies have almost priced themselves out of the market and we are moving to systems that have no wet trades like brickies so that we can ensure production continuity and quality.
Your son (depending on his age) is doing ok if he can earn £700 a day, and has taken the right steps to upskill himself.
I have heard that off site production in building is gaining in popularity. Some units built in factory fully fitted out with bathroom/kitchen , electrics and plumbing all completed. The whole thing then placed and ‘bolted’ into final position.
The Concept of timber frame pre construction in factory, dis assembled and transported onto site for reconstruction I find an interesting forward development. Having said that timber frame pre construction was. ding carried our from the 15th century!! One of my interests is historic timber framed houses.
roger.mellie said:
crankedup said:
El stovey said:
crankedup said:
The other aspect of this particular element is where the work is, this brings me onto such matters as travelling to work, accommodation costs, living expenses. Oh look it’s come back to where it started now.
My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Can’t you see that it’s hard to get repairs etc done as you’ve voted to get rid of the swarms of invading workers that would likely be doing that kind of work? My daughter lives in London, as Blue states, it is difficult and expensive to find good trades for domestic jobs. She had a roof extension built, not so bad as little businesses seem set up to do that work. But any repairs required is another matter. She suggested to her brother that he lives in London as there was/is plenty of well paid work, but worked out the added costs and it didn’t pay enough.That’s the point he decided to up his skills.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
Now remind me how flooding the market with a bunch of well trained apprentices is going to protect the wages of the oul' hands
.The main bit of your argument that stands up to scrutiny is that if there are enough locally sourced people to do a job them immigrants won't be needed in that sector. But you also have to stand over the argument that it's worth the government being arsed to do it rather than importing skills. Leaving the EU has not fundamentally changed that equation for the government. I've made suggestions on what would so and can't be arsed doing so again.
Now we are out of the EU and FOM is no longer part of the U.K. strategy we will be using the points based immigration system as the Ozzies use. I’m content with that as it is a system that the U.K. controls.
Who is talking about flooding the market with well trained apprentices? We should be getting back, some as we never left it, the supply and demand basis. If for example the electrical trade is over supplied with labour then rates will fall and apprentices will look at plumbing or brick laying for example. Supply and demand will dictate.
The Government has already put into place a number of schemes offering financial assistance o Companies taking on new apprentice youngsters
roger.mellie said:
crankedup said:
Welshbeef said:
crankedup said:
The main problem with finding good trades is the simple fact that we in the U.K. stopped the apprentice schemes in favour of Uni education with a degree at the end. We now are bearing the fruits of that particular bit of Government interference with far to many young people holding worthless degrees and a lack of good qualified trades people.
Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
One thing remainers never understood the foreign nurses and drs they wanted to keep coming to the U.K. from poor 3rd or second world countries. Those countries who had trained up nurses and drs at tax payer costs for their own need yet remainers were happy for those countries to be pillaged for U.K. benefit (a bit like colonialism all over again). Now I know that the FOM filled the hole left in our lack of trades, but this came at a price. I’ve done that to death now!
Apprentice schemes are now resurrected, better late than never, and slowly slowly the trickle of good trades will return once more, but it will take time to rectify mistakes of the past.
Remaining in the EU and encouraging East Europeans to plug the trades hole was a short term
unsustainable policy. Effectively it was creating the race to the bottom which suited employers but ultimately damaged employees.
It is far better to fill the gaps using the new U.K. immigration system which will help protect the quality of trades and their wages.
.To paraphrase his piss taking. One thing leavers never understood is how much they benefitted from Drs and Nurses from across the world coming to the UK and how little difference leaving the EU will make as the bulk of them came from places like India and the Philippines. The UK has long taken advantage of importing qualified labour from more disadvantaged countries and will continue to do so regardless of EU membership. It has nothing to do with leave vs remain, the exploitation long predates EU membership
crankedup said:
Of topic, my lad did have the misfortune of working for Carillion at one stage. A Company that were concerned about box ticking being correct and ‘the job’ came second. A truly terrible Company to work for and one that he quickly moved on from.
I have heard that off site production in building is gaining in popularity. Some units built in factory fully fitted out with bathroom/kitchen , electrics and plumbing all completed. The whole thing then placed and ‘bolted’ into final position.
The Concept of timber frame pre construction in factory, dis assembled and transported onto site for reconstruction I find an interesting forward development. Having said that timber frame pre construction was. ding carried our from the 15th century!! One of my interests is historic timber framed houses.
Ours are a hybrid using steel framed internally finished panels, pre finished volumetric bathrooms and kitchens, plug in wiring looms. No combustibles in the envelope or structure, lifetime carbon zero. Some of the things are amazing, like kitchen worktops made and installed with 0.5mm tolerancesI have heard that off site production in building is gaining in popularity. Some units built in factory fully fitted out with bathroom/kitchen , electrics and plumbing all completed. The whole thing then placed and ‘bolted’ into final position.
The Concept of timber frame pre construction in factory, dis assembled and transported onto site for reconstruction I find an interesting forward development. Having said that timber frame pre construction was. ding carried our from the 15th century!! One of my interests is historic timber framed houses.
chrispmartha said:
El stovey said:
In my work (aviation) the amount of apprenticeship schemes has been increasing since the mid 90s certainly many of our engineers came though on apprenticeship schemes. Same in my wife’s work (large multinational) where companies are recruiting from school leavers and university there’s all kinds of apprenticeship schemes for people even those with few qualifications.
These schemes were nothing to do with the EU.
So they weren’t stopped then?These schemes were nothing to do with the EU.
The apprentice schemes were nothing to do with the EU that I agree with. What I am saying is that our Government took advantage of FOM and allowed, and I have to be careful here with my choice of words, plentiful immigration labour. I am saying that our Government manipulated the market back in the 1990s to lower the labour costs in certain industries whilst ‘upgrading’ indigenous youngsters with Uni degrees. It’s all gone wrong of course and steps have been taken to try and right the problem.
blueg33 said:
crankedup said:
Of topic, my lad did have the misfortune of working for Carillion at one stage. A Company that were concerned about box ticking being correct and ‘the job’ came second. A truly terrible Company to work for and one that he quickly moved on from.
I have heard that off site production in building is gaining in popularity. Some units built in factory fully fitted out with bathroom/kitchen , electrics and plumbing all completed. The whole thing then placed and ‘bolted’ into final position.
The Concept of timber frame pre construction in factory, dis assembled and transported onto site for reconstruction I find an interesting forward development. Having said that timber frame pre construction was. ding carried our from the 15th century!! One of my interests is historic timber framed houses.
Ours are a hybrid using steel framed internally finished panels, pre finished volumetric bathrooms and kitchens, plug in wiring looms. No combustibles in the envelope or structure, lifetime carbon zero. Some of the things are amazing, like kitchen worktops made and installed with 0.5mm tolerancesI have heard that off site production in building is gaining in popularity. Some units built in factory fully fitted out with bathroom/kitchen , electrics and plumbing all completed. The whole thing then placed and ‘bolted’ into final position.
The Concept of timber frame pre construction in factory, dis assembled and transported onto site for reconstruction I find an interesting forward development. Having said that timber frame pre construction was. ding carried our from the 15th century!! One of my interests is historic timber framed houses.
DeepEnd said:
Vanden Saab said:
Strange that you ignore others actually working in the trades who say the opposite. As i understand it blue is a developer not a tradesman although he may have been in the past. If I was a developer or even a contractor I would also be mourning the loss of FoM.
If I read your last posts correctly you are saying you/your trade is on way more than £50k so what are we to take from that? t excuse you can find to explain why having many more people doing the same thing as you doesn't reduce wages... The Migration Advisory Committee (independent body) published the results of their research on immigration, including FOM, and wages in 2018, they found that immigration, including from FOM into the UK, depressed the wages of lower-skilled workers. Naturally, since then the BBC and other EUrophiles have made strenuous efforts while wiggling on their sticks to invert reality. Immigration wasn't on the list of my reasons for voting Leave, as things stood FOM was just another EU diktat arising from the Treaty of Maastricht. FOM may have benefited some higher earners, lucky for them as they say.
blueg33 said:
Ours are a hybrid using steel framed internally finished panels, pre finished volumetric bathrooms and kitchens, plug in wiring looms. No combustibles in the envelope or structure, lifetime carbon zero. Some of the things are amazing, like kitchen worktops made and installed with 0.5mm tolerances
Wish the volumetric house builder I was working with could achieve such standards!Poor factory quality standards resulted in flooded homes, external finishes being stripped on site and worst of all unacceptable amounts of deflection to name a few!
All at a cost of £10k per unit more than traditional.
turbobloke said:
The Migration Advisory Committee (independent body) published the results of their research on immigration, including FOM, and wages in 2018, they found that immigration, including from FOM into the UK, depressed the wages of lower-skilled workers. Naturally, since then the BBC and other EUrophiles have made strenuous efforts while wiggling on their sticks to invert reality. Immigration wasn't on the list of my reasons for voting Leave, as things stood FOM was just another EU diktat arising from the Treaty of Maastricht. FOM may have benefited some higher earners, lucky for them as they say.
From the report
Which is here.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Vanden Saab said:
DeepEnd said:
Vanden Saab said:
Strange that you ignore others actually working in the trades who say the opposite. As i understand it blue is a developer not a tradesman although he may have been in the past. If I was a developer or even a contractor I would also be mourning the loss of FoM.
If I read your last posts correctly you are saying you/your trade is on way more than £50k so what are we to take from that? t excuse you can find to explain why having many more people doing the same thing as you doesn't reduce wages... https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/12/heres-how-t...
turbobloke said:
The Migration Advisory Committee (independent body) published the results of their research on immigration, including FOM, and wages in 2018, they found that immigration, including from FOM into the UK, depressed the wages of lower-skilled workers. Naturally, since then the BBC and other EUrophiles have made strenuous efforts while wiggling on their sticks to invert reality. Immigration wasn't on the list of my reasons for voting Leave, as things stood FOM was just another EU diktat arising from the Treaty of Maastricht. FOM may have benefited some higher earners, lucky for them as they say.
Oh blimey that’s done it now. 
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