Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)

[roger.mellie]

jsf said:

You are just waffling now roger.

I know

[anonymous-user]

[paul0843]

crankedup said:

blueg33 said:

crankedup said:

blueg33 said:

crankedup said:

Now that most of the immigrants have gone home I would agree that trades are now again reasonably paid.

Except that they have been well paid for the 30 years I have been in the industry.

When I was a student I used to labour on building sites, unskilled no trade just some youthful energy, I earned more than many of my school mates who went jand got better regarded jobs.

During my time in the industry I have seen no evidence that qualified trades from the EU have depressed rates.

What I see now though is reduced volumes in construction because the reduction in the availability of trades is causing issues. That’s why we are moving investment and jobs out of the UK.

Reduced construction volumes will flow through to an increasing housing crisis, increasing costs result in increasing prices and less money available through s106 for community etc.

No doubt you have worked all over the U.K. and found your summary fits in perfectly with that of your stated experience. No dips in the market, no influences from EU immigration, just a working World where your only enemy is a lack of skilled labour.
Do you run training schemes or rely upon others to train workers in the skills required. My lad was employed as an apprentice by a self employed electrician who paid him and permitted day release to learn the technical side of the job.

The business I have managed for the last 12 years covers all of the UK with developments as far north and Aberdeen as far south and west as Plymouth, as far east as Norwich. Prior to that my responsibility was midlands through to the South West. Of course the market fluctuates, but not due to immigrant workers it fluctuates due to demand. Eg When Heathrow Terminal 5 was being built we couldn't get brickies, sparkies, chippies or plasterers as far north as Birmingham. This pushed rates up to levels that were unsustainable in the long terms and for us impacted the cost of the homes we built and the time it took to build them. When terminal 5 was complete the rates returned to the normal and still very good rate. HS2 is now starting to have a similar impact, as Crossrail also did.

We run national training schemes and local schemes where we have developments, its one of our core principles along with modern slavery, health and safety and integrity. These are tested and challenged frequently all the way to the Group main board. We also run training schemes around the world (much of our Group is global) and upskill and pay locals properly. We also ensure that ALL of our contractors and subcontractors apply the same principles. They are contractually obliged to and it is followed up and checked.

Its a sad situation but we also find in the UK that many young people don't want to work in the construction industry and don't take up the training and apprenticeship opportunities.

The Living Wage Foundation in the UK has named us as an accredited Real Living Wage employer.

There was a lack of skilled labour before Brexit and there is even more of a lack now. However, there are many tradesmen who seem reluctant to work, have no pride in the job and deliver poor quality (as many new homes attest). These are the ones who find it difficult to get work or who get paid less. Just like any job, if you are good at it and have the right attitude you tend to be better paid than if you don't, whether you are an electrician, an architect, a doctor or an accountant.

We have some superb British tradesmen and some superb Europeans and some superb ones from all corners of the planet. They are all paid the same rates wherever they come from. Likewise we have crap ones with attitude problems, unfortunately for the industry these are predominantly home grown. (note this last point that this is observation rather than data driven).

So in my experience and that of my colleagues in all of the construction sectors we have worked in, FOM of labour is not a thing that has reduced pay rates. Being st at the job reduces payrates for individuals.

If there are people who are good at their job and feel they are being underpaid, well in construction its the easiest thing ever to move to a different employer. If you have the skills and the attitude you have a well paid job for life. If you haven't you might just slip into blaming immigration "they're taking our jobs" is the cry of those that need to look closer to home as to why they are not being well rewarded in the construction industry.

Your full and comprehensive post is appreciated.
I can’t change the situation that my family found themselves in but as a result of that situation he upped his skill levels and moved on and up. Having said that he also has recently gained his Electrical Safety Certificate which, as to will know, qualifies him to inspect and Certificate electrical works. For example Landlords premises etc. He earns about £350 inspecting a three bedroom unit
which is about 3 or 4 hours work.
But his main employment is, as I have previously stated, for a Pharma’ Company in Cambridge.

I agree that many of the young people see that getting their hands dirty in a days work is not what they want. They have been indoctrinated it seems to wish for a clean office environment and a computer or two on their desk. The industry has much work to do in helping to dissuade youngsters from this attitude, along with Government.

One area of work that was crap he found was in Carillion, no doubt you have heard of them. Not quite as rosy as your response suggests.

If your son is earning £350 for 3 to 4 hours of work,then surely FOM has been of benefit to him.

[blueg33]

jsf said:

5 years on and you are still about the referendum and still not understanding the majority who voted leave, did so for a multitude of reasons.

Indeed many reasons. What I am trying to flush out is the reasons that had merit and were properly understood.

Sadly I know of people who voted leave whose reasoning was that the EU invented VAT.

I accept that we are out, but I don’t have to accept that a lot of the reasons given were bogus.

Interestingly the same newspapers have moved onto Meghan Markle, using the same tactics of misinformation and negative spin which manipulated the way people think.

I am sure we are all affected to one degree or another. The difference between people is that some challenge it and reach their own conclusions, others just accept.

[Murph7355]

blueg33 said:

...
I am sure we are all affected to one degree or another. The difference between people is that some challenge it and reach their own conclusions, others just accept.

You appear to be suggesting that only those reaching the "remain" conclusion on their own were the ones with the "right" answer.

I'm sure there are those who voted Leave because they thought the EU invented VAT. I'm sure there are those that voted Remain because they thought the EU invented roaming call plans or whatever else were listed as EU benefits that really weren't.

There was bullst, lies and negative spin from both campaigns. They were both abject. Arguing that one was more bullstty than the other is again just reflecting one's bias and the perceived "rightness" of their own vote.

Plenty of reasons have been given all over the place about why people voted to Leave. Some will be sensible, others less so. If you can't accept/understand any of them then that is something for you to come to terms with. I really struggle, for example, with those who felt a vote to Remain was for some notional "status quo", or those who did so purely on economic grounds...I get that some based their votes on these things, but will never fully understand them to the degree it would have changed my vote.

People think differently. It is what it is. But do not denigrate those who think differently. Do not try and rationalise a choice that way as all it does is encourage and deepen division.

[anonymous-user]

jsf said:

God knows what you think of my current career.

That's not a career, it's a carer.

[anonymous-user]

rockin said:

That's not a career, it's a carer.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[roger.mellie]

Murph7355 said:

People think differently. It is what it is. But do not denigrate those who think differently. Do not try and rationalise a choice that way as all it does is encourage and deepen division.

I’ve a black pot that finds your black kettle comment quite sexy.

[blueg33]

Murph7355 said:

blueg33 said:

...
I am sure we are all affected to one degree or another. The difference between people is that some challenge it and reach their own conclusions, others just accept.

You appear to be suggesting that only those reaching the "remain" conclusion on their own were the ones with the "right" answer.

I'm sure there are those who voted Leave because they thought the EU invented VAT. I'm sure there are those that voted Remain because they thought the EU invented roaming call plans or whatever else were listed as EU benefits that really weren't.

There was bullst, lies and negative spin from both campaigns. They were both abject. Arguing that one was more bullstty than the other is again just reflecting one's bias and the perceived "rightness" of their own vote.

Plenty of reasons have been given all over the place about why people voted to Leave. Some will be sensible, others less so. If you can't accept/understand any of them then that is something for you to come to terms with. I really struggle, for example, with those who felt a vote to Remain was for some notional "status quo", or those who did so purely on economic grounds...I get that some based their votes on these things, but will never fully understand them to the degree it would have changed my vote.

People think differently. It is what it is. But do not denigrate those who think differently. Do not try and rationalise a choice that way as all it does is encourage and deepen division.

I said people reach their own conclusions. The ones I denigrate are the ones that don’t reach their own conclusions

[Murph7355]

blueg33 said:

I said people reach their own conclusions. The ones I denigrate are the ones that don’t reach their own conclusions

Everyone reached their own conclusions one way or another.

[Murph7355]

roger.mellie said:

Murph7355 said:

People think differently. It is what it is. But do not denigrate those who think differently. Do not try and rationalise a choice that way as all it does is encourage and deepen division.

I’ve a black pot that finds your black kettle comment quite sexy.

I don't think I've denigrated others for their choice before...apart from possibly their choice to whine about a result 5yrs ago and replay the same old arguments

[crankedup]

Oh well, the great divide is well and kicking, no doubt will continue to do so for a period of a few more years until our remainer friends accept the political situation.
My lad had a kicking 15 years or so back thanks to the politicians of the EU and U.K . As it transpires he is now earning reasonable living and I have the satisfaction of seeing the U.K. kicking the EU into touch. That will do for me

[Mortarboard]

blueg33 said:

jsf said:

5 years on and you are still about the referendum and still not understanding the majority who voted leave, did so for a multitude of reasons.

Indeed many reasons. What I am trying to flush out is the reasons that had merit and were properly understood.

Sadly I know of people who voted leave whose reasoning was that the EU invented VAT.

I accept that we are out, but I don’t have to accept that a lot of the reasons given were bogus.

Interestingly the same newspapers have moved onto Meghan Markle, using the same tactics of misinformation and negative spin which manipulated the way people think.

I am sure we are all affected to one degree or another. The difference between people is that some challenge it and reach their own conclusions, others just accept.

Conversely, I'd say there was a significant cohort of voters who wanted to leave, but voted remain as they thought the likelihood of the government making a success of it was slim to none.

M.

[anonymous-user]

Murph7355 said:

I don't think I've denigrated others for their choice before...apart from possibly their choice to whine about a result 5yrs ago and replay the same old arguments

It's curious that those who apparently "got what they wanted" remain so incredibly unsatisfied.

[crankedup]

Mortarboard said:

blueg33 said:

jsf said:

5 years on and you are still about the referendum and still not understanding the majority who voted leave, did so for a multitude of reasons.

Indeed many reasons. What I am trying to flush out is the reasons that had merit and were properly understood.

Sadly I know of people who voted leave whose reasoning was that the EU invented VAT.

I accept that we are out, but I don’t have to accept that a lot of the reasons given were bogus.

Interestingly the same newspapers have moved onto Meghan Markle, using the same tactics of misinformation and negative spin which manipulated the way people think.

I am sure we are all affected to one degree or another. The difference between people is that some challenge it and reach their own conclusions, others just accept.

Conversely, I'd say there was a significant cohort of voters who wanted to leave, but voted remain as they thought the likelihood of the government making a success of it was slim to none.

M.

Evidence please.

[crankedup]

rockin said:

Murph7355 said:

I don't think I've denigrated others for their choice before...apart from possibly their choice to whine about a result 5yrs ago and replay the same old arguments

It's curious that those who apparently "got what they wanted" remain so incredibly unsatisfied.

Evidence please.

[Tryke3]

crankedup said:

Oh well, the great divide is well and kicking, no doubt will continue to do so for a period of a few more years until our remainer friends accept the political situation.
My lad had a kicking 15 years or so back thanks to the politicians of the EU and U.K . As it transpires he is now earning reasonable living and I have the satisfaction of seeing the U.K. kicking the EU into touch. That will do for me

Always someone's else fault

[Mortarboard]

crankedup said:

Evidence please.

I know this may come as a shock for you, but lots of folks think that the government (ANY government) couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery, never mind negotiate a successful Brexit and manage the "new normal" in a competent manner.

If you need "evidence" for that, I suggest talking to people in real life.

M.

[crankedup]

Mortarboard said:

crankedup said:

Evidence please.

I know this may come as a shock for you, but lots of folks think that the government (ANY government) couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery, never mind negotiate a successful Brexit and manage the "new normal" in a competent manner.

If you need "evidence" for that, I suggest talking to people in real life.

M.

I invite you to join the real World, look at the last GE results and ask yourself one question :
is it me or them

[crankedup]

crankedup said:

rockin said:

Murph7355 said:

I don't think I've denigrated others for their choice before...apart from possibly their choice to whine about a result 5yrs ago and replay the same old arguments

It's curious that those who apparently "got what they wanted" remain so incredibly unsatisfied.

Evidence please.

Still waiting.