Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)

[crankedup]

DeepEnd said:

Mortarboard said:

crankedup said:

Still waiting .

To can play that game aaaaalllll day Cranked.

Evidence to the contrary please.

Still waiting.

M.

Do you think the evidence of immigration not materially affecting wages has led to the rethink over swarming invaders?

But that was only half the story in that report, and I said that the definitions of ‘lower paid’ and ‘higher paid’ were not included. what is ‘higher paid’ a CEO what is ‘lower paid’ a cabbage picker? That being undefined leaves the analysis meaningless.

[blueg33]

crankedup said:

blueg33 said:

crankedup said:

Mortarboard said:

crankedup said:

Evidence please.

I know this may come as a shock for you, but lots of folks think that the government (ANY government) couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery, never mind negotiate a successful Brexit and manage the "new normal" in a competent manner.

If you need "evidence" for that, I suggest talking to people in real life.

M.

People like you

On the 5th April Governments approval rating was 36% That suggests that the majority don't approve, you could then hypothesize that that is because there are concerns about their competency.

On another poll - albeit a small sample, the question is "How well do you think that the Government is handling Brexit - well gets 34% badly gets 49%

Fair enough and thanks for going to the trouble.

TBH I find it depressing. I have voted Tory all my life and this is the first version of the party that I havent felt I have been able to vote for. This is because they have broken trust and lied so obviously, so often.

There is no one for me to vote for at the moment. I wonder how many feel the same. I know at the last election quite a few of my colleagues expressed the same feelings

[Murph7355]

Fittster said:

Brexit brings pain for UK vintage watch dealers...

First brie and French wines, then skiing equipment, now vintage watches....

How will we cope

chrispmartha said:

DeepEnd said:

Do you think the evidence of immigration not materially affecting wages has led to the rethink over swarming invaders?

I doubt it, cranked is keen on evidence but he’s been given a few bits of evidence lately that seem to debunk a couple of his main reasons for voting leave - (wages and apprenticeship numbers) maybe he should ask the question is it me or is it them? ;-)

Has something new been linked to on this? Or is it the same data that deals in averages?

[Mrr T]

crankedup said:

Mrr T said:

chrispmartha said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

It will take time before the new situation is understood, just like when the UK was taken into the EU, without a vote for its citizens on the matter.
I remember the fuss that was made over all the EU red tape, and paperwork that businesses in the UK had to change to, and get used to. Not forgetting the butter mountains and wine lakes, and straight banana nonsenses that being in the EU kicked up. (and many other areas of legislative change that took place and had to be taken on board and got used to).
Just a matter of time before the dust settles, li, and ke it has done before. until something else happens that we all have to get used to, comes along. Nothing to see here, move along.

How old were you when the UK joined the EU?

He is now joining tb in claiming joining the EU caused major problems for British industry. The problem there is no evidence this was the case. So likely just making it up.

I would hope after all these years everyone know straight bananas is nothing to do with the EU. But no.

Not as bad as your plagiarism straight from Google that you were caught out recently, you need to be careful when throwing stones in glass houses.

I agree making stuff up is fine while lifting a short sentence from a site without attribution is a terrible crime and should be severely punished.

How's your son. The one who lost his job because all the immigrants under cut him. Well accept you have now admitted that did not happen.

[crankedup]

blueg33 said:

crankedup said:

blueg33 said:

crankedup said:

Mortarboard said:

crankedup said:

Evidence please.

I know this may come as a shock for you, but lots of folks think that the government (ANY government) couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery, never mind negotiate a successful Brexit and manage the "new normal" in a competent manner.

If you need "evidence" for that, I suggest talking to people in real life.

M.

People like you

On the 5th April Governments approval rating was 36% That suggests that the majority don't approve, you could then hypothesize that that is because there are concerns about their competency.

On another poll - albeit a small sample, the question is "How well do you think that the Government is handling Brexit - well gets 34% badly gets 49%

Fair enough and thanks for going to the trouble.

TBH I find it depressing. I have voted Tory all my life and this is the first version of the party that I havent felt I have been able to vote for. This is because they have broken trust and lied so obviously, so often.

There is no one for me to vote for at the moment. I wonder how many feel the same. I know at the last election quite a few of my colleagues expressed the same feelings

Who in their right mind would want to be a politician, they get rocks thrown at them what ever they do and say but on section or other of the population. The only attraction must be now to hope to achieve a Ministerial position or a Shadow Minister. Build the ‘call in the favours book’ and move into the ‘advisory Boards’. But then don’t get caught out like Cameron. His lobbying technique is possibly going to further close that door a certain degree or two, removing another incentive to be a politician.
I would vote Tory again next time just to keep the others out.

[Ean218]

Mrr T said:

chrispmartha said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

It will take time before the new situation is understood, just like when the UK was taken into the EU, without a vote for its citizens on the matter.
I remember the fuss that was made over all the EU red tape, and paperwork that businesses in the UK had to change to, and get used to. Not forgetting the butter mountains and wine lakes, and straight banana nonsenses that being in the EU kicked up. (and many other areas of legislative change that took place and had to be taken on board and got used to).
Just a matter of time before the dust settles, li, and ke it has done before. until something else happens that we all have to get used to, comes along. Nothing to see here, move along.

How old were you when the UK joined the EU?

He is now joining tb in claiming joining the EU caused major problems for British industry. The problem there is no evidence this was the case. So likely just making it up.

I would hope after all these years everyone know straight bananas is nothing to do with the EU. But no.

I well remember the chaos caused by the introduction of VAT, intrastats, EU sales lists and cross border triangulation rules along with the accompanying paperwork. Most trading companies had to get brand new accounting software just to cope with it.

[blueg33]

Murph7355 said:

Fittster said:

Brexit brings pain for UK vintage watch dealers...

First brie and French wines, then skiing equipment, now vintage watches....

How will we cope

The point is that its "chip, chip, chip" damaging many sectors across the economy. Each of those sectors has employees and generates tax revenue and GDP.

Yes we can cope if its just one tiny sector, but it isn't one tiny sector- smart arse comments just demonstrate a lack of understanding and a failure to see the big economic picture and understand the importance of being able to trade freely with the largest single market on the planet that is conveniently right on our doorstep

[anonymous-user]

blueg33 said:

TBH I find it depressing. I have voted Tory all my life and this is the first version of the party that I havent felt I have been able to vote for. This is because they have broken trust and lied so obviously, so often.

There is no one for me to vote for at the moment. I wonder how many feel the same. I know at the last election quite a few of my colleagues expressed the same feelings

Last election was the only time I haven’t voted conservative. If the election was tomorrow I’d reluctantly vote conservative as there doesn’t seem to me to be any other more viable options at the moment.

Come 2024 I’ll just look at all the options as usual though and hopefully I and others (who haven’t already made their minds up) will have a positive choice rather than deciding which is least worst.

It’s only disappointing if you feel aligned to a party though. I just view them all like internet providers or any other utility and when it’s time to change contract, check out the options and go with who I think will be best.

Others seem to like to feel part of a party or some tribal loyalty to that party or their ideology a bit like following a sports team or a religion etc everyone’s different I suppose.

[chrispmartha]

crankedup said:

DeepEnd said:

Mortarboard said:

crankedup said:

Still waiting .

To can play that game aaaaalllll day Cranked.

Evidence to the contrary please.

Still waiting.

M.

Do you think the evidence of immigration not materially affecting wages has led to the rethink over swarming invaders?

But that was only half the story in that report, and I said that the definitions of ‘lower paid’ and ‘higher paid’ were not included. what is ‘higher paid’ a CEO what is ‘lower paid’ a cabbage picker? That being undefined leaves the analysis meaningless.

Interesting its now meaningless because it doesn't fit with your narrative. What the report did state was the effect on wages was small, whether higher or lower paid, it also came to a few other conclusions that don't correlate with 'the immigrants are stealing our jobs' narrative.

Yay seemed chuffed when TB brought he report up, now it's meaningless?

And remember it was TB who first introduced this report to try and help prove your point (which backfired)

[crankedup]

Mrr T said:

crankedup said:

Mrr T said:

chrispmartha said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

It will take time before the new situation is understood, just like when the UK was taken into the EU, without a vote for its citizens on the matter.
I remember the fuss that was made over all the EU red tape, and paperwork that businesses in the UK had to change to, and get used to. Not forgetting the butter mountains and wine lakes, and straight banana nonsenses that being in the EU kicked up. (and many other areas of legislative change that took place and had to be taken on board and got used to).
Just a matter of time before the dust settles, li, and ke it has done before. until something else happens that we all have to get used to, comes along. Nothing to see here, move along.

How old were you when the UK joined the EU?

He is now joining tb in claiming joining the EU caused major problems for British industry. The problem there is no evidence this was the case. So likely just making it up.

I would hope after all these years everyone know straight bananas is nothing to do with the EU. But no.

Not as bad as your plagiarism straight from Google that you were caught out recently, you need to be careful when throwing stones in glass houses.

I agree making stuff up is fine while lifting a short sentence from a site without attribution is a terrible crime and should be severely punished.

How's your son. The one who lost his job because all the immigrants under cut him. Well accept you have now admitted that did not happen.

Let’s keep it real, you plagiarised a complete major paragraph, trying to play it down by saying it was ‘only a little sentence’ is a lie. You were caught out and many posters jumped on it. And the more you try to play it down now the more attention will be drawn to it once again.
It’s true I do get my numbers wrong sometimes, honest mistakes are honest mistakes.

Your last para’ is, as is usual for you, complete nonsense made up in your head. Its so wrong in every detail, he didn’t lose his job he chose to move on and took on training to expand and move up in his field of work. He is an electronics engineer in a major pharma’ Company now and has also gained his Electrical Inspection Certificate for good measure.
It was certainly the undercutting of his wage rates by Eastern European immigrants that prompted him into the actions that he took. As it transpired he is now far better off in all aspects of his professional life. Most of the Eastern European’s now seem to have returned home leaving a shortage of trades people.

[Mrr T]

crankedup said:

Let’s keep it real, you plagiarised a complete major paragraph, trying to play it down by saying it was ‘only a little sentence’ is a lie. You were caught out and many posters jumped on it. And the more you try to play it down now the more attention will be drawn to it once again.
It’s true I do get my numbers wrong sometimes, honest mistakes are honest mistakes.

Your last para’ is, as is usual for you, complete nonsense made up in your head. Its so wrong in every detail, he didn’t lose his job he chose to move on and took on training to expand and move up in his field of work. He is an electronics engineer in a major pharma’ Company now and has also gained his Electrical Inspection Certificate for good measure.
It was certainly the undercutting of his wage rates by Eastern European immigrants that prompted him into the actions that he took. As it transpired he is now far better off in all aspects of his professional life. Most of the Eastern European’s now seem to have returned home leaving a shortage of trades people.

It may have been 2 sentences but does it matter? This is a car forum its not an essay for an examination.

As for the change in the story about your son. You repeated the claim many times. I remember because it was almost always followed by someone in the industry disagreeing.

[anonymous-user]

chrispmartha said:

crankedup said:

DeepEnd said:

Mortarboard said:

crankedup said:

Still waiting .

To can play that game aaaaalllll day Cranked.

Evidence to the contrary please.

Still waiting.

M.

Do you think the evidence of immigration not materially affecting wages has led to the rethink over swarming invaders?

But that was only half the story in that report, and I said that the definitions of ‘lower paid’ and ‘higher paid’ were not included. what is ‘higher paid’ a CEO what is ‘lower paid’ a cabbage picker? That being undefined leaves the analysis meaningless.

Interesting its now meaningless because it doesn't fit with your narrative. What the report did state was the effect on wages was small, whether higher or lower paid, it also came to a few other conclusions that don't correlate with 'the immigrants are stealing our jobs' narrative.

Yay seemed chuffed when TB brought he report up, now it's meaningless?

And remember it was TB who first introduced this report to try and help prove your point (which backfired)

Indeed TB misrepresented a report crankedup was all over it as it backed him up then when it turned out to be a misrepresentation he said it was meaningless.

[jimKRFC]

chrispmartha said:

crankedup said:

DeepEnd said:

Mortarboard said:

crankedup said:

Still waiting .

To can play that game aaaaalllll day Cranked.

Evidence to the contrary please.

Still waiting.

M.

Do you think the evidence of immigration not materially affecting wages has led to the rethink over swarming invaders?

But that was only half the story in that report, and I said that the definitions of ‘lower paid’ and ‘higher paid’ were not included. what is ‘higher paid’ a CEO what is ‘lower paid’ a cabbage picker? That being undefined leaves the analysis meaningless.

Interesting its now meaningless because it doesn't fit with your narrative. What the report did state was the effect on wages was small, whether higher or lower paid, it also came to a few other conclusions that don't correlate with 'the immigrants are stealing our jobs' narrative.

Yay seemed chuffed when TB brought he report up, now it's meaningless?

And remember it was TB who first introduced this report to try and help prove your point (which backfired)

It also says it doesn't conclude on the impact on the self employed, and as most electricans (as are plumbers etc..)are self employed, it doesn't support any comments on immigration impact on wages.

[turbobloke]

Ean218 said:

Mrr T said:

chrispmartha said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

It will take time before the new situation is understood, just like when the UK was taken into the EU, without a vote for its citizens on the matter.
I remember the fuss that was made over all the EU red tape, and paperwork that businesses in the UK had to change to, and get used to. Not forgetting the butter mountains and wine lakes, and straight banana nonsenses that being in the EU kicked up. (and many other areas of legislative change that took place and had to be taken on board and got used to).
Just a matter of time before the dust settles, li, and ke it has done before. until something else happens that we all have to get used to, comes along. Nothing to see here, move along.

How old were you when the UK joined the EU?

He is now joining tb in claiming joining the EU caused major problems for British industry. The problem there is no evidence this was the case. So likely just making it up.

I would hope after all these years everyone know straight bananas is nothing to do with the EU. But no.

I well remember the chaos caused by the introduction of VAT, intrastats, EU sales lists and cross border triangulation rules along with the accompanying paperwork. Most trading companies had to get brand new accounting software just to cope with it.

1993/94 vintage iirc. Don't stir up regulars with triangulateds?

It's possible that some of our ardent remainers weren't born - current PH cutoff is 2008 - or weren't old enough to vote, never mind remember. Otherwise, selective memories can work wonders.

[blueg33]

El stovey said:

blueg33 said:

TBH I find it depressing. I have voted Tory all my life and this is the first version of the party that I havent felt I have been able to vote for. This is because they have broken trust and lied so obviously, so often.

There is no one for me to vote for at the moment. I wonder how many feel the same. I know at the last election quite a few of my colleagues expressed the same feelings

Last election was the only time I haven’t voted conservative. If the election was tomorrow I’d reluctantly vote conservative as there doesn’t seem to me to be any other more viable options at the moment.

Come 2024 I’ll just look at all the options as usual though and hopefully I and others (who haven’t already made their minds up) will have a positive choice rather than deciding which is least worst.

It’s only disappointing if you feel aligned to a party though. I just view them all like internet providers or any other utility and when it’s time to change contract, check out the options and go with who I think will be best.

Others seem to like to feel part of a party or some tribal loyalty to that party or their ideology a bit like following a sports team or a religion etc everyone’s different I suppose.

The disappointing bit for is that there is no one to vote for rather than a party affiliation.

[anonymous-user]

blueg33 said:

The disappointing bit for is that there is no one to vote for rather than a party affiliation.

Plenty to vote for, just none that align with your views or values as much as in previous years?

Even voting for a poor option to stop an even more poor option is well worth doing IMHO

[roger.mellie]

El stovey said:

Last election was the only time I haven’t voted conservative. If the election was tomorrow I’d reluctantly vote conservative as there doesn’t seem to me to be any other more viable options at the moment.

Come 2024 I’ll just look at all the options as usual though and hopefully I and others (who haven’t already made their minds up) will have a positive choice rather than deciding which is least worst.

It’s only disappointing if you feel aligned to a party though. I just view them all like internet providers or any other utility and when it’s time to change contract, check out the options and go with who I think will be best.

Others seem to like to feel part of a party or some tribal loyalty to that party or their ideology a bit like following a sports team or a religion etc everyone’s different I suppose.

There's a bit of bleating against the system going on on this thread without acknowledging that the system is not unchangeable. It suits the tory and labour parties for you to feel the way you do and for you to think that voting has to be a binary decision.

It doesn't but why would they want it any other way if the sheep are prepared to follow? (not calling you a sheep before you get wound up, you're questioning the problem, most don't).

[paulrockliffe]

turbobloke said:

1993/94 vintage iirc. Don't stir up regulars with triangulateds?

It's possible that some of our ardent remainers weren't born - current PH cutoff is 2008 - or weren't old enough to vote, never mind remember. Otherwise, selective memories can work wonders.

It always makes me laugh when the remainers try to make out that VAT isn't an EU thing. When I trained as a VAT compliance officer the first thing we did was look at the EU VAT Directive.

I'd expect that if we'd not joined the EU there would be a similar tax, but we wouldn't have had the legal approach where EU Law has direct effect in UK Law, but we must then write UK Law to match a legal system that cannot be translated directly.

The costs for both companies and Government in dealing with ECJ rulings and the inherent lack of legal certainty is massive just in VAT, let alone all the other areas where EU Law had direct effect. It's inherent in that setup, before you get to the ECJ subtly moving the goalposts over time.

[blueg33]

paulrockliffe said:

turbobloke said:

1993/94 vintage iirc. Don't stir up regulars with triangulateds?

It's possible that some of our ardent remainers weren't born - current PH cutoff is 2008 - or weren't old enough to vote, never mind remember. Otherwise, selective memories can work wonders.

It always makes me laugh when the remainers try to make out that VAT isn't an EU thing. When I trained as a VAT compliance officer the first thing we did was look at the EU VAT Directive.

I'd expect that if we'd not joined the EU there would be a similar tax, but we wouldn't have had the legal approach where EU Law has direct effect in UK Law, but we must then write UK Law to match a legal system that cannot be translated directly.

The costs for both companies and Government in dealing with ECJ rulings and the inherent lack of legal certainty is massive just in VAT, let alone all the other areas where EU Law had direct effect. It's inherent in that setup, before you get to the ECJ subtly moving the goalposts over time.

It makes me laugh when Brexiteers say VAT wasn't around before the EU. We had the same thing just called Purchase Tax, applied at point of manufacture or distribution but still a regressive tax ultimately paid by the consumer.

Purchase tax was 33.33%, VAT when it replaced purchase tax was 8%.

Also VAT was about the Common Market not the EU

Edited by blueg33 on Monday 12th April 11:38

[roger.mellie]

paulrockliffe said:

turbobloke said:

1993/94 vintage iirc. Don't stir up regulars with triangulateds?

It's possible that some of our ardent remainers weren't born - current PH cutoff is 2008 - or weren't old enough to vote, never mind remember. Otherwise, selective memories can work wonders.

It always makes me laugh when the remainers try to make out that VAT isn't an EU thing. When I trained as a VAT compliance officer the first thing we did was look at the EU VAT Directive.

I'd expect that if we'd not joined the EU there would be a similar tax, but we wouldn't have had the legal approach where EU Law has direct effect in UK Law, but we must then write UK Law to match a legal system that cannot be translated directly.

The costs for both companies and Government in dealing with ECJ rulings and the inherent lack of legal certainty is massive just in VAT, let alone all the other areas where EU Law had direct effect. It's inherent in that setup, before you get to the ECJ subtly moving the goalposts over time.

Maybe I'm too thick to comprehend but I remain unconvinced that removing the government's obligations on complying to VAT regulations will be translated into cost savings for anyone (meet the new boss etc). You are obviously not one of the idiots that thinks leaving the EU will lead to a removal or massive reduction in VAT. It is one of the tory's favourite taxation policies. Which bit of it are you expecting to improve as a result of leaving the EU?