Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)

[anonymous-user]

paul0843 said:

I have friends who voted for Brexit based on Xenophobia,and even though I disagree with them I respect the fact that they have the conviction to admit it.
I also have friends who keep telling me of many benefits. They still have not been able to convince me.
Paul

I have no fear of alien species, either from outer space or another dimension (unless they start ripping our heads off of course)

[Vanden Saab]

paul0843 said:

-UK can forget automatic supremacy of EU laws over laws the UK can make
I CAN THINK OF NOT ONE THAT AFFECTS ME POSITIVELY
-UK can make more decisions in Westminster over more areas of policy
ACCORDING TO OUR OWN GOVERNMENTS WHITE PAPER,WE WERE ALWAYS A SOVEREIGN NATION.
-UK politicians are therefore more directly accountable than pre-brexit
DONT SEE THIS,AND AGAIN NO BENEFIT TO ME.
-UK can relegate MEPs and QMV to a more appropriate position down the list
AND LOSE OUR VOICE AND INFLUENCE.
-UK can make trade deals without reference to the disparate needs of 20+ other countries, just the UK
ALL WE HAVE DONE IS ROLLOVERS OF WHAT WE ALREADY HAD AS A SINGLE NATION,NOT A LARGE UNION OF 27.
WE HAVE THE WORLDS LARGEST MARKET ON OUR DOORSTEP,BUT WE BELIEVE ITS BETTER TO START LOOKING AT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.
WHEN I GO TO A SUPERMARKET,I GO TO THE ONE IN MY NEIGHBOURHOOD,WALKING DISTANE,NOT ONE THAT I NEED TO DRIVE FOR HOURS AND HOURS TO GET TO.
-UK can be more independent now the CJEU has had its wings severely clipped this side of the channel
AGAIN CAN SEE NO BENEFIT TO ME OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER.
-UK can forget about paying an annual membership fee to a dysfunctional can-kicking club
NOT PAYING THE MEMBERSHIP,BUT HAVING TO PAY MANY TIMES THE FEE FOR THE ADDED BUREAUCRACY
-UK can enjoy risk reduction benefits as the UK isn't exposed to future EU bail-in potential
AND THE SKY MAY FALL ON MY HEAD,BUT I STILL CHANCE IT AND WALK OUT THE HOUSE ON A DAILY BASIS.
-UK can ignore/laugh more at muppetry from the likes of Tusk, Juncker, UvdL
PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES AND ALL THAT.
-UK MPs can forget about a gravytrain option and be more focused on the UK
REALLY? £100 PER METRE WALLPAPER ANYONE?
-UK procurement can forget about mandatory OJEU processes
YES,HANCOCK AND HIS SISTER CAN ADVICE ON THIS.
-UK can vary state aid policy after being freed from EU state aid rules
THAT WE HAVE A SAY IN AND ALSO A VETO
-UK can put aside a future being subsumed as a colony while the EU federalist empire-building process staggers on
AS ABOVE WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD A VETO,AND OFF COURSE YOU CAN ALWAYS WEAR SOME TIN FOIL HATS.

I have friends who voted for Brexit based on Xenophobia,and even though I disagree with them I respect the fact that they have the conviction to admit it.
I also have friends who keep telling me of many benefits. They still have not been able to convince me.
Paul

All of this begs the question if the Eu made no difference to any bodies life in the UK then why are you so upset we have left...

[Earthdweller]

paul0843 said:

-UK can forget automatic supremacy of EU laws over laws the UK can make
I CAN THINK OF NOT ONE THAT AFFECTS ME POSITIVELY
-UK can make more decisions in Westminster over more areas of policy
ACCORDING TO OUR OWN GOVERNMENTS WHITE PAPER,WE WERE ALWAYS A SOVEREIGN NATION.
-UK politicians are therefore more directly accountable than pre-brexit
DONT SEE THIS,AND AGAIN NO BENEFIT TO ME.
-UK can relegate MEPs and QMV to a more appropriate position down the list
AND LOSE OUR VOICE AND INFLUENCE.
-UK can make trade deals without reference to the disparate needs of 20+ other countries, just the UK
ALL WE HAVE DONE IS ROLLOVERS OF WHAT WE ALREADY HAD AS A SINGLE NATION,NOT A LARGE UNION OF 27.
WE HAVE THE WORLDS LARGEST MARKET ON OUR DOORSTEP,BUT WE BELIEVE ITS BETTER TO START LOOKING AT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.
WHEN I GO TO A SUPERMARKET,I GO TO THE ONE IN MY NEIGHBOURHOOD,WALKING DISTANE,NOT ONE THAT I NEED TO DRIVE FOR HOURS AND HOURS TO GET TO.
-UK can be more independent now the CJEU has had its wings severely clipped this side of the channel
AGAIN CAN SEE NO BENEFIT TO ME OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER.
-UK can forget about paying an annual membership fee to a dysfunctional can-kicking club
NOT PAYING THE MEMBERSHIP,BUT HAVING TO PAY MANY TIMES THE FEE FOR THE ADDED BUREAUCRACY
-UK can enjoy risk reduction benefits as the UK isn't exposed to future EU bail-in potential
AND THE SKY MAY FALL ON MY HEAD,BUT I STILL CHANCE IT AND WALK OUT THE HOUSE ON A DAILY BASIS.
-UK can ignore/laugh more at muppetry from the likes of Tusk, Juncker, UvdL
PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES AND ALL THAT.
-UK MPs can forget about a gravytrain option and be more focused on the UK
REALLY? £100 PER METRE WALLPAPER ANYONE?
-UK procurement can forget about mandatory OJEU processes
YES,HANCOCK AND HIS SISTER CAN ADVICE ON THIS.
-UK can vary state aid policy after being freed from EU state aid rules
THAT WE HAVE A SAY IN AND ALSO A VETO
-UK can put aside a future being subsumed as a colony while the EU federalist empire-building process staggers on
AS ABOVE WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD A VETO,AND OFF COURSE YOU CAN ALWAYS WEAR SOME TIN FOIL HATS.

I have friends who voted for Brexit based on Xenophobia,and even though I disagree with them I respect the fact that they have the conviction to admit it.
I also have friends who keep telling me of many benefits. They still have not been able to convince me.
Paul

Are you feeling better now you’ve written all that guff ?

Still I’ll take a bit of expensive wallpaper over paying for the 42000 bottles of wine and 2000 bottles of spirits in the EU wine cellar where they spend over £100k each year replenishing the stock of wine they give for free to Members of the Parliament

Then again, we aren’t paying for the €1bn Euro refurbishment of just one of the two EU Parliament’s that is ongoing as we speak

Do you think their wallpaper is from the value aisle in Tesco ?

[paul0843]

Vanden Saab said:

paul0843 said:

-UK can forget automatic supremacy of EU laws over laws the UK can make
I CAN THINK OF NOT ONE THAT AFFECTS ME POSITIVELY
-UK can make more decisions in Westminster over more areas of policy
ACCORDING TO OUR OWN GOVERNMENTS WHITE PAPER,WE WERE ALWAYS A SOVEREIGN NATION.
-UK politicians are therefore more directly accountable than pre-brexit
DONT SEE THIS,AND AGAIN NO BENEFIT TO ME.
-UK can relegate MEPs and QMV to a more appropriate position down the list
AND LOSE OUR VOICE AND INFLUENCE.
-UK can make trade deals without reference to the disparate needs of 20+ other countries, just the UK
ALL WE HAVE DONE IS ROLLOVERS OF WHAT WE ALREADY HAD AS A SINGLE NATION,NOT A LARGE UNION OF 27.
WE HAVE THE WORLDS LARGEST MARKET ON OUR DOORSTEP,BUT WE BELIEVE ITS BETTER TO START LOOKING AT THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.
WHEN I GO TO A SUPERMARKET,I GO TO THE ONE IN MY NEIGHBOURHOOD,WALKING DISTANE,NOT ONE THAT I NEED TO DRIVE FOR HOURS AND HOURS TO GET TO.
-UK can be more independent now the CJEU has had its wings severely clipped this side of the channel
AGAIN CAN SEE NO BENEFIT TO ME OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER.
-UK can forget about paying an annual membership fee to a dysfunctional can-kicking club
NOT PAYING THE MEMBERSHIP,BUT HAVING TO PAY MANY TIMES THE FEE FOR THE ADDED BUREAUCRACY
-UK can enjoy risk reduction benefits as the UK isn't exposed to future EU bail-in potential
AND THE SKY MAY FALL ON MY HEAD,BUT I STILL CHANCE IT AND WALK OUT THE HOUSE ON A DAILY BASIS.
-UK can ignore/laugh more at muppetry from the likes of Tusk, Juncker, UvdL
PEOPLE IN GLASS HOUSES AND ALL THAT.
-UK MPs can forget about a gravytrain option and be more focused on the UK
REALLY? £100 PER METRE WALLPAPER ANYONE?
-UK procurement can forget about mandatory OJEU processes
YES,HANCOCK AND HIS SISTER CAN ADVICE ON THIS.
-UK can vary state aid policy after being freed from EU state aid rules
THAT WE HAVE A SAY IN AND ALSO A VETO
-UK can put aside a future being subsumed as a colony while the EU federalist empire-building process staggers on
AS ABOVE WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD A VETO,AND OFF COURSE YOU CAN ALWAYS WEAR SOME TIN FOIL HATS.

I have friends who voted for Brexit based on Xenophobia,and even though I disagree with them I respect the fact that they have the conviction to admit it.
I also have friends who keep telling me of many benefits. They still have not been able to convince me.
Paul

All of this begs the question if the Eu made no difference to any bodies life in the UK then why are you so upset we have left...

I am upset as it’s costing me at least an additional £150-£200k a year to do the exact same business I was doing last year,but without the fluidity and JIT element .
I am upset as from what I can see and hear from farmers,musicians,oyster growers,fishermen,flower growers ,expats ,cheese makers etc etc is that we have shot ourselves in the foot and voted for less rights .
I am also upset as i am nearly 60,I do not have the 50 years ahead of me to see the sunny uplands that Jacob promised.
So please let me know of quantifiable benefits to me,not some word salad about the big bad EU is going to
bite us.

[Biggy Stardust]

paul0843 said:

I am upset as it’s costing me at least an additional £150-£200k a year to do the exact same business I was doing last year,but without the fluidity and JIT element .
I am upset as from what I can see and hear from farmers,musicians,oyster growers,fishermen,flower growers ,expats ,cheese makers etc etc is that we have shot ourselves in the foot and voted for less rights .
I am also upset as i am nearly 60,I do not have the 50 years ahead of me to see the sunny uplands that Jacob promised.
So please let me know of quantifiable benefits to me,not some word salad about the big bad EU is going to
bite us.

I'm sorry you're upset because you can't see the benefits.

In other news, I can see the benefits despite teething issues & am happy enough so no worries.

[anonymous-user]

Biggy Stardust said:

paul0843 said:

I am upset as it’s costing me at least an additional £150-£200k a year to do the exact same business I was doing last year,but without the fluidity and JIT element .
I am upset as from what I can see and hear from farmers,musicians,oyster growers,fishermen,flower growers ,expats ,cheese makers etc etc is that we have shot ourselves in the foot and voted for less rights .
I am also upset as i am nearly 60,I do not have the 50 years ahead of me to see the sunny uplands that Jacob promised.
So please let me know of quantifiable benefits to me,not some word salad about the big bad EU is going to
bite us.

I'm sorry you're upset because you can't see the benefits.

In other news, I can see the benefits despite teething issues & am happy enough so no worries.

Sounds like he's upset because the paperwork is too difficult, obviously a volume exporter to Europe ?

[DeltonaS]

turbobloke said:

-UK can ignore/laugh more at muppetry from the likes of Tusk, Juncker, UvdL

You don't think the muppetry this past 5 years has been entirely on the English side of the Chanel

The referendum and red busses, 5 years of a political mess, PM May, the Scottish wish for independance, the Irish border, more red tape with UK's largest trading partners.

So much winning.

[mike9009]

turbobloke said:

Bump.


-UK can veto automatic supremacy of EU laws over laws the UK can make
-UK can make more decisions in Westminster over more areas of policy, still waiting
-UK politicians are therefore more directly accountable than pre-brexit, you really believe that?
-UK can relegate MEPs and QMV to a more appropriate position down the list, yeh
-UK can make trade deals without reference to the disparate needs of 20+ other countries, just the UK
-UK can be more independent now the CJEU has had its wings severely clipped this side of the channel
-UK can forget about paying an annual membership fee to a dysfunctional can-kicking club
-UK can enjoy risk reduction benefits as the UK isn't exposed to future EU bail-in potential
-UK can ignore/laugh more at muppetry from the likes of Tusk, Juncker, UvdL
-UK MPs can forget about a gravytrain option and be more focused on the UK
-UK procurement can forget about mandatory OJEU processes
-UK can vary state aid policy after being freed from EU state aid rules
-UK can put aside a future being subsumed as a colony while the EU federalist empire-building process staggers on

Ideological nonsense, with minimal impact on the man on the street. Devolution of the UK would ideologically provide all the same benefits listed with local governance and extrapolating before 927AD splitting into the original Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.

Politicians are politicians no matter where they are based. Do you trust your town councillors more than Westminster MPs?

Yet, it raises an interesting question. What is the ideal size of population for sovereign governance? Or is it based on some guiding factor? Borders? Language? Religion?

Edited by mike9009 on Saturday 24th April 21:35

[Sway]

paul0843 said:

I am upset as it’s costing me at least an additional £150-£200k a year to do the exact same business I was doing last year,but without the fluidity and JIT element .
I am upset as from what I can see and hear from farmers,musicians,oyster growers,fishermen,flower growers ,expats ,cheese makers etc etc is that we have shot ourselves in the foot and voted for less rights .
I am also upset as i am nearly 60,I do not have the 50 years ahead of me to see the sunny uplands that Jacob promised.
So please let me know of quantifiable benefits to me,not some word salad about the big bad EU is going to
bite us.

For £75k, I'll come and get you AEO status, and fix whatever immensely fked systems and processes you're using for routine customs to be costing that.

Oh, it'll be JIT too, just as I've managed across global supply chains including crossing half the planet.

[Biggy Stardust]

DeltonaS said:

You don't think the muppetry this past 5 years has been entirely on the English side of the Chanel

Ever hear tell of the EU vaccination programme?

DeltonaS said:

The referendum and red busses, 5 years of a political mess, PM May, the Scottish wish for independance, the Irish border, more red tape with UK's largest trading partners.

The referendum was eventually a win for democracy despite the interference of the losers who wouldn't accept the result as they didn't want it. The bus was misunderstood by stupid people who misread what it said. Years of political mess was due to quislings in our midst. The whole T.May thing is pretty indefensible so I have to concede that one.

The Irish border thing was a mistake due to the spite of the EU & immediately admitted & backtracked upon. Red tape is also due to EU spite.

DeltonaS said:

So much winning.

We've mostly acted in good faith throughout- the EU can hardly say the same.

[crankedup]

Garvin said:

crankedup said:

Yes, done extremely well for himself. But my post was criticising the obnoxious reactions from remainers. No wonder posters that voted to leave have but all left this forum.

Perhaps they are waiting for something new and interesting to be posted rather than the incessant repetitive tired old tropes and insults being rolled out. After all, those who voted leave have achieved their aim, seem to be universally comfortable with it, can see that it is worth it and have nothing to be particularly concerned about.

Yes I entirely agree, I am regrettably weak enough to be drawn into those tropes to which you refer.
In old English.it’s job done

[gizlaroc]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ah well, she only did it once, I bet she is embarrassed about you every day of her life.


Just kidding, I bet she loves you really.

[Murph7355]

mike9009 said:

Ideological nonsense, with minimal impact on the man on the street. Devolution of the UK would ideologically provide all the same benefits listed with local governance and extrapolating before 927AD splitting into the original Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.

Politicians are politicians no matter where they are based. Do you trust your town councillors more than Westminster MPs?

Yet, it raises an interesting question. What is the ideal size of population for sovereign governance? Or is it based on some guiding factor? Borders? Language? Religion?

The way in which we are governed impacts every single one of us. As your later questions suggest you fully understand.

Politicians are indeed politicians no matter where in the world they are. Ideologically I want as few of them in my life as is possible, and I want the decision making as close to "me" as possible. This is not to say that I firmly believe UK politicians are "best of breed". Very far from it. Though you will have to try very hard to convince me that the quality of those in the EU wrapper is better than anywhere else, especially on the last few months' evidence. An alarming proportion of them seem to be domestic failures, which is not a good start!

There are some decisions that local councillors should be better placed than Westminster MPs to make. Splits on council taxes are an example. I won't always agree with them, but the closer they are to "me", the more accountable they can be made.

The questions you close with are the very interesting ones. Our systems and borders (etc) have evolved over hundreds of years. We settle on the answers to your questions through wars and political unions. On balance this latest one, for the UK, was evidently a step too far (after a mere 25yrs). History is littered with empires that extend too far, contract, morph etc.

The "name one EU law that directly impacts you" trope is facile. Everything about the way we are governed impacts everyone. The path the EU wishes to take is abundantly clear. We were only ever going to be given one chance to vote on whether we as a nation wanted to continue down that path, and we took it. Whether things were "bad"/"as bad as they could get" depending on your ideological viewpoint is pretty much irrelevant. (I'd argue that a vote to remain was far from a vote for the status quote...it would have sped up the "badness" - again, depending on your ideological viewpoint ).

I've posted this a number of times, but the EU would be much, much better served if it insisted on referenda at each treaty change, and put more thought into the exit path for any nation feeling the direction of travel was no longer for them. As a species we seem adept at growing empires but have yet to find a smooth way to withdraw from them. This is, of course, deliberate on the part of the power brokers. They do not want an easy exit or their power diminishes. And, of course, they fundamentally believe in the "rightness" of what they are doing. Trouble is, the more you need to convince, the harder that becomes.

[loafer123]

gizlaroc said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ah well, she only did it once, I bet she is embarrassed about you every day of her life.


Just kidding, I bet she loves you really.

A mother’s love in unconditional.

[Sway]

loafer123 said:

gizlaroc said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ah well, she only did it once, I bet she is embarrassed about you every day of her life.


Just kidding, I bet she loves you really.

A mother’s love in unconditional.

Trust me, it's not...

[DeltonaS]

Biggy Stardust said:

DeltonaS said:

You don't think the muppetry this past 5 years has been entirely on the English side of the Chanel

Ever hear tell of the EU vaccination programme?

That's been on repeat for months now, the wkfest on some of these pages is beyond silly and childish. It's a silly attempt to cover up all the years of Brexit "winning".

First of all the EU vaccination programm doesn't exits. It's a vaccination procurement programm. The nations themselves are in full control over their respective vaccination programms.

However the EU nations decided, based on solidarity with the less well off nations within the EU, to join an EU wide procurement programm.

For some the outcome is less desirable, for others it may prove to be a better solution.

DeltonaS said:

The referendum and red busses, 5 years of a political mess, PM May, the Scottish wish for independance, the Irish border, more red tape with UK's largest trading partners.

Biggy Stardust said:

The referendum was eventually a win for democracy despite the interference of the losers who wouldn't accept the result as they didn't want it. The bus was misunderstood by stupid people who misread what it said. Years of political mess was due to quislings in our midst. The whole T.May thing is pretty indefensible so I have to concede that one.

The Irish border thing was a mistake due to the spite of the EU & immediately admitted & backtracked upon. Red tape is also due to EU spite.

It must be wonderfull to live in your world, a world that's shaped in a form that ony suits your opinion all the time, irrespective of reality.

You can pretend the referendum was a win for democracy, but it's quite obvious the only reason you portray it as such is because your vote ended up on the right side of the argument. The reality is of course that the voting public was illinformed by the Tabloid democracy that the referendum was; the red busses being probably the most visible and simple example.

And no. it's due to English incompetence or should I say, wish, that the UK ended up with the outcome that it got. If you as a nation decide to leave the EU and want to be fully independant from 27 other nations, the ony outcome is that you end up as a 3rd country. With the occompanied consequences as a result. It's pretty simple actually.

DeltonaS said:

So much winning.

Biggy Stardust said:

We've mostly acted in good faith throughout- the EU can hardly say the same.

I hope you do realise that your onesided view is beyond silly, you really don't get it.
Again; if you want to make up your own rules without having to listen to 27 other nations the end result is quite clear.

The best of both worlds is what we all want, but it doesn't exist.

[anonymous-user]

Do you spend as much time on the Swiss forums when they vote in referendum's too? They have them quite often, which may be why you are only here on a smash and grab every so often.

[hyphen]

PWC: EU will be forced to do a deal on Financial Services.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/04/25/eu...

[hyphen]

loafer123 said:

gizlaroc said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ah well, she only did it once, I bet she is embarrassed about you every day of her life.


Just kidding, I bet she loves you really.

A mother’s love in unconditional.

You have to let your children make mistakes and learn from them

[Nickgnome]

hyphen said:

loafer123 said:

gizlaroc said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ah well, she only did it once, I bet she is embarrassed about you every day of her life.


Just kidding, I bet she loves you really.

A mother’s love in unconditional.

You have to let your children make mistakes and learn from them

He made no mistake.

Not withstanding the Brexit voters will suffer the consequences.

We have already moved on to protect our self interests.

Tax loss to the UK but as a resident still get the benefits. Win Win!