Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)

[Sway]

bhstewie said:

For some strange and mysterious reason G7 leaders think the EU are important enough to have been invited to the G7 for the past couple of decades.

PistonHeads "The EU really isn't globally influential".

That's pretty funny

Just because they've been invited (especially when that invite was made when over half the G7 were part of the EU) does not mean they're globally influential...

Influence describes others looking at you and adopting your approaches/mindsets regarding stuff.

No one has copied the core EU on any of their core 'achievements'.

No 'four freedoms'
No single currency
No CAP type scheme
No explicit regs on FS
No unreconcilable International fiscal flows
Etc.

If you think the EU Parliament/Commission is globally influential, name three things that the wider world has adopted that the EU P/C were first to introduce.

[Oilchange]

They are unelected bureaucrats. Nothing more.

[Sway]

JeffreyD said:

Sway said:

The EU really isn't globally influential...

Certain countries within it, absolutely. Some well 'above their weight'.

The EU institutions themselves? Pretty much irrelevant other than examples of how not to legislate.

You make a lot of good points on here, but that really is complete nonsense.

What has the EU parliament/council influenced globally?

What examples of global uptake of novel EU specific ideas can you point to?

[JeffreyD]

I was only thinking from a trade perspective.

I think working out a strategy for China (as an example) is pretty high on the list.

I'd have thought their influence was absolutely obvious. Everyone has been wanging on about the insidious control of British life for years.

But then again There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Or rather those whose one eyed vision is selective.

[bitchstewie]

Sway said:

Just because they've been invited (especially when that invite was made when over half the G7 were part of the EU) does not mean they're globally influential...

Influence describes others looking at you and adopting your approaches/mindsets regarding stuff.

No one has copied the core EU on any of their core 'achievements'.

No 'four freedoms'
No single currency
No CAP type scheme
No explicit regs on FS
No unreconcilable International fiscal flows
Etc.

If you think the EU Parliament/Commission is globally influential, name three things that the wider world has adopted that the EU P/C were first to introduce.

The G7 leaders presumably think differently.

Still I'm sure you know best.

[Sway]

bhstewie said:

Sway said:

Just because they've been invited (especially when that invite was made when over half the G7 were part of the EU) does not mean they're globally influential...

Influence describes others looking at you and adopting your approaches/mindsets regarding stuff.

No one has copied the core EU on any of their core 'achievements'.

No 'four freedoms'
No single currency
No CAP type scheme
No explicit regs on FS
No unreconcilable International fiscal flows
Etc.

If you think the EU Parliament/Commission is globally influential, name three things that the wider world has adopted that the EU P/C were first to introduce.

The G7 leaders presumably think differently.

Still I'm sure you know best.

So nothing springs to mind?

I'll restate - appeals to authority when at the point of inclusion over half the real members were EU leaders, and the fact they haven't been given full membership but instead as 'observers' isn't entirely compelling.

The point is whether they're globally influential. If they are, as claimed, then the citation of examples should be really easy.

I've pointed out a fair few of the flagship activities of the EU, and stated no one else has copied them. Your turn...

[anonymous-user]

bhstewie said:

Sway said:

Just because they've been invited (especially when that invite was made when over half the G7 were part of the EU) does not mean they're globally influential...

Influence describes others looking at you and adopting your approaches/mindsets regarding stuff.

No one has copied the core EU on any of their core 'achievements'.

No 'four freedoms'
No single currency
No CAP type scheme
No explicit regs on FS
No unreconcilable International fiscal flows
Etc.

If you think the EU Parliament/Commission is globally influential, name three things that the wider world has adopted that the EU P/C were first to introduce.

The G7 leaders presumably think differently.

Still I'm sure you know best.

I think he does.

We had to begrudgingly accept an Ambassador (in name only) from the EU

People get fed up of inaction - only rules and threats of legal action from an unelected body, fairly quickly.

[bitchstewie]

Sway said:

So nothing springs to mind?

I'll restate - appeals to authority when at the point of inclusion over half the real members were EU leaders, and the fact they haven't been given full membership but instead as 'observers' isn't entirely compelling.

The point is whether they're globally influential. If they are, as claimed, then the citation of examples should be really easy.

I've pointed out a fair few of the flagship activities of the EU, and stated no one else has copied them. Your turn...

I'm not even thinking about it because whether they should be there or not isn't down to Sway's "name three things" test.

Whether or not they should be there is down to whether the other G7 leaders think they're influential enough to warrant being there.

And since they're there I think we both know the answer to that one.

[JeffreyD]

The represent absolutely fking enormous amounts of GDP
That makes them globally influential.

It's really very obvious and not at all complicated.

I'd have thought at least one of the G7 leaders would have the stones to rescind their invite if they didn't think it was worthwhile.

It's not really a point worthy of any further debate

[Sway]

JeffreyD said:

I was only thinking from a trade perspective.

I think working out a strategy for China (as an example) is pretty high on the list.

I'd have thought their influence was absolutely obvious. Everyone has been wanging on about the insidious control of British life for years.

But then again There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Or rather those whose one eyed vision is selective.

No one trades with the EU. Indeed, their influence from that perspective can be demonstrated to be pretty poor - their list of trade deals is shorter and less useful than those of Switzerland or Norway. They also take much longer to agree them.

They had influence over us as members - very different from your claim of global influence.

I'm happy to "see" - but not blindly follow rhetoric for which I cannot see any substance other than them being invited to observe a meeting...

[JeffreyD]

Fair enough.

I'll stick with the facts.

A salient one being that they are at the G7 meetings and that gives them global influence.

[Earthdweller]

JeffreyD said:

The represent absolutely fking enormous amounts of GDP
That makes them globally influential.

It's really very obvious and not at all complicated.

I'd have thought at least one of the G7 leaders would have the stones to rescind their invite if they didn't think it was worthwhile.

It's not really a point worthy of any further debate

Remind me how well the EU interventions in Libya or Bosnia went as examples

Or how about the response to the Syrian crisis or southern migration crisis ?

[JeffreyD]

Earthdweller said:

Remind me how well the EU interventions in Libya or Bosnia went as examples

Or how about the response to the Syrian crisis or southern migration crisis ?

Why would I want to do that?

If you can't accept their global influence then that's ok by me.

I appreciate people don't like what they are and what they do, and think the are incompetent and even malevolent. That's a different debate and I doubt very much you will find me defending them.

[Earthdweller]

JeffreyD said:

I was only thinking from a trade perspective.

I think working out a strategy for China (as an example) is pretty high on the list.

I'd have thought their influence was absolutely obvious. Everyone has been wanging on about the insidious control of British life for years.

But then again There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Or rather those whose one eyed vision is selective.

What nations actually trade with the EU ?

Certainly they put parameters on businesses in countries outside the EU wishing to trade with businesses in countries within the EU, barriers even and restrictions on free trade and access, some of which has artificially raised prices for citizens

Is there any evidence that they are anything more than another ( unnecessary ) level of bureaucracy?

[Sway]

bhstewie said:

Sway said:

So nothing springs to mind?

I'll restate - appeals to authority when at the point of inclusion over half the real members were EU leaders, and the fact they haven't been given full membership but instead as 'observers' isn't entirely compelling.

The point is whether they're globally influential. If they are, as claimed, then the citation of examples should be really easy.

I've pointed out a fair few of the flagship activities of the EU, and stated no one else has copied them. Your turn...

I'm not even thinking about it because whether they should be there or not isn't down to Sway's "name three things" test.

Whether or not they should be there is down to whether the other G7 leaders think they're influential enough to warrant being there.

And since they're there I think we both know the answer to that one.

I've not once mentioned they shouldn't be there... Indeed, considering how many members are EU nations, it's entirely appropriate they're there purely to appease the other EU nations who could feel they're getting screwed.

However, that's not the point I'm making. Jeffrey stated the EU is globally influential - that's nothing to do with whether they go to G7 as observers (indeed, there's already been a few far more influential non members mentioned).

If they're globally influential, then it should be easy to point to the things they've influenced globally.

[Earthdweller]

JeffreyD said:

Earthdweller said:

Remind me how well the EU interventions in Libya or Bosnia went as examples

Or how about the response to the Syrian crisis or southern migration crisis ?

Why would I want to do that?

If you can't accept their global influence then that's ok by me.

I appreciate people don't like what they are and what they do, and think the are incompetent and even malevolent. That's a different debate and I doubt very much you will find me defending them.

Is that because they were completely ineffective and shambolic ?

Eufor in Libya being described as like a like an April fools joke or NATO having to step in and take over in Bosnia where U.K. and US Forces not in the EUfor had to intervene

The EU’s projection of power has been anything but globally influential

But in fairness they have managed ( at times ) to send strongly worded letters to say they are very cross with ( insert country ) but then done no more

[JeffreyD]

Earthdweller said:

What nations actually trade with the EU ?

I'll stop after this post as it's a ridiculous debate.

Pertinent to the G7 countries - who will discuss trade with China on behalf of most of western Europe?


(I'll give you a clue there has been loads of news about it recently, if you type "What the fk is this brexit st that everyone has been wanging on about" into Google it will help explain a few things about the EU and the influence they have.)

[Sway]

JeffreyD said:

Earthdweller said:

What nations actually trade with the EU ?

I'll stop after this post as it's a ridiculous debate.

Pertinent to the G7 countries - who will discuss trade with China on behalf of most of western Europe?


(I'll give you a clue there has been loads of news about it recently, if you type "What the fk is this brexit st that everyone has been wanging on about" into Google it will help explain a few things about the EU and the influence they have.)

Most of Western Europe's trade with China is done by the actual members there in Western Europe...

UK/France/Germany/Italy. They will account for more than 50% of the WE trade with China.

Brexit is not an example of global influence.

[Einion Yrth]

Trade is done by individuals/companies, nations/governments just get in the way, to a greater or lesser extent.

[Earthdweller]

JeffreyD said:

I'll stop after this post as it's a ridiculous debate.

Pertinent to the G7 countries - who will discuss trade with China on behalf of most of western Europe?


(I'll give you a clue there has been loads of news about it recently, if you type "What the fk is this brexit st that everyone has been wanging on about" into Google it will help explain a few things about the EU and the influence they have.)

What has the EU changed or influenced globally ?

The Christian missionaries had global influence

The British Empire had global influence in that it spread a common language around the world ( amongst many other things ) .. one still used today as the global language of business and communications

The US has global influence through soft diplomacy and a big ( nuclear ) stick and its expression of its democracy

They are examples of global influence .. how things have been changed, moulded or influenced

Being the agency acting on behalf of other countries, who have the final say, in trade negotiations is not global influence

Apart from regulating its members what influence does the EU have on global or regional basis ?