Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
sunbeam alpine said:
paulrockliffe said:
sunbeam alpine said:
Many have reduced their dependence on UK sales. I don't claim to know the whole market, but I know that one of the largest fresh meat producers here in Belgium, who were delivering more than 50% of their production into the UK at the time of the Brexit vote, were delivering less than 5% of their production by the end of last year.
You also need to bear in mind that the UK needs imported meat - at least in the short term - and that the ways things are going at the moment, UK meat production is more likely to decrease than increase.
How have they reduced their dependence? Surely that's short hand for "We've lost 45% of our sales, so we're making a load of you redundant".You also need to bear in mind that the UK needs imported meat - at least in the short term - and that the ways things are going at the moment, UK meat production is more likely to decrease than increase.
Another Remain argument that gets flipped on a whim when it suits.
sunbeam alpine said:
paulrockliffe said:
sunbeam alpine said:
Many have reduced their dependence on UK sales. I don't claim to know the whole market, but I know that one of the largest fresh meat producers here in Belgium, who were delivering more than 50% of their production into the UK at the time of the Brexit vote, were delivering less than 5% of their production by the end of last year.
You also need to bear in mind that the UK needs imported meat - at least in the short term - and that the ways things are going at the moment, UK meat production is more likely to decrease than increase.
How have they reduced their dependence? Surely that's short hand for "We've lost 45% of our sales, so we're making a load of you redundant".You also need to bear in mind that the UK needs imported meat - at least in the short term - and that the ways things are going at the moment, UK meat production is more likely to decrease than increase.
Unless they weren't maximising their inter-EU sales (possible, if UK prices were more profitable than inter-EU ones), then they're taking a huge hit.
The UK is a huge consumer nation for many countries' exports.
RoI sends half it's beef to the UK, virtually all fresh. Amazingly, at a cheaper price per kilo than frozen Aussie beef.
For meat, the UK is actually more self sufficient than people generally believe - we do export frozen as it's seen as a high quality product, but with a 'loss' of EU suppliers of fresh that could easily be pivoted into the domestic market, which is increasingly 'buy British'.
All of which ultimately means no one has a calibrated crystal ball with this stuff - but the indications are strongly in the UK's favour when it comes to sorting out the application of the NIP.
Sway said:
Meanwhile, posters supporting the EU's position have ignored they have caved - and pushed it down the road, amusingly and tellingly to the point in which we apply those same controls to all third nation imports.
Funny that, it's almost like I pointed out weeks ago the UK's leverage in this debate.
Uk requests extension on the exemption:Funny that, it's almost like I pointed out weeks ago the UK's leverage in this debate.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...
Sway: "The EU has caved!"
The initial exemption was to enable NI retailers to (and I quote here) "make changes" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55245...
i.e. either get a trusted trader scheme up and running, or establish alternative suppliers.
To suggest this is "an EU ban" is b
ks. Remember the "shellfish ban"? Funny how that all worked out to not actually be a ban after all.What next? "Services ban?" "Financial products ban?"
Frost & team need to start dealing with the practicalities of the Brexit deal (and I include the EU's responsibility to engage in it also), and less focus on Tory/Bojo PR management.
M.
Mortarboard said:
Sway said:
Meanwhile, posters supporting the EU's position have ignored they have caved - and pushed it down the road, amusingly and tellingly to the point in which we apply those same controls to all third nation imports.
Funny that, it's almost like I pointed out weeks ago the UK's leverage in this debate.
Uk requests extension on the exemption:Funny that, it's almost like I pointed out weeks ago the UK's leverage in this debate.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...
Sway: "The EU has caved!"
The initial exemption was to enable NI retailers to (and I quote here) "make changes" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55245...
i.e. either get a trusted trader scheme up and running, or establish alternative suppliers.
To suggest this is "an EU ban" is b
ks. Remember the "shellfish ban"? Funny how that all worked out to not actually be a ban after all.What next? "Services ban?" "Financial products ban?"
Frost & team need to start dealing with the practicalities of the Brexit deal (and I include the EU's responsibility to engage in it also), and less focus on Tory/Bojo PR management.
M.
Vanden Saab said:
Mortarboard said:
Sway said:
Meanwhile, posters supporting the EU's position have ignored they have caved - and pushed it down the road, amusingly and tellingly to the point in which we apply those same controls to all third nation imports.
Funny that, it's almost like I pointed out weeks ago the UK's leverage in this debate.
Uk requests extension on the exemption:Funny that, it's almost like I pointed out weeks ago the UK's leverage in this debate.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...
Sway: "The EU has caved!"
The initial exemption was to enable NI retailers to (and I quote here) "make changes" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55245...
i.e. either get a trusted trader scheme up and running, or establish alternative suppliers.
To suggest this is "an EU ban" is b
ks. Remember the "shellfish ban"? Funny how that all worked out to not actually be a ban after all.What next? "Services ban?" "Financial products ban?"
Frost & team need to start dealing with the practicalities of the Brexit deal (and I include the EU's responsibility to engage in it also), and less focus on Tory/Bojo PR management.
M.
I expect the EU will agree. However, if they refuse it is not a beach of the IP or committee agreement.
So this is a big win for the UK since it seems our government is at last acting in a proper manner.
Mrr T said:
Vanden Saab said:
Mortarboard said:
Sway said:
Meanwhile, posters supporting the EU's position have ignored they have caved - and pushed it down the road, amusingly and tellingly to the point in which we apply those same controls to all third nation imports.
Funny that, it's almost like I pointed out weeks ago the UK's leverage in this debate.
Uk requests extension on the exemption:Funny that, it's almost like I pointed out weeks ago the UK's leverage in this debate.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bre...
Sway: "The EU has caved!"
The initial exemption was to enable NI retailers to (and I quote here) "make changes" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55245...
i.e. either get a trusted trader scheme up and running, or establish alternative suppliers.
To suggest this is "an EU ban" is b
ks. Remember the "shellfish ban"? Funny how that all worked out to not actually be a ban after all.What next? "Services ban?" "Financial products ban?"
Frost & team need to start dealing with the practicalities of the Brexit deal (and I include the EU's responsibility to engage in it also), and less focus on Tory/Bojo PR management.
M.
I expect the EU will agree. However, if they refuse it is not a beach of the IP or committee agreement.
So this is a big win for the UK since it seems our government is at last acting in a proper manner.
Oilchange said:
I’d find it very difficult to implement properly a policy that affected my domestic situation, imposed by an outside party for their own ends. If that means the UK isn’t taking the NI protocol seriously, I can live with that.
Maybe we should have negotiated a protocol involving Paris and Marseille or Munich and Frankfurt to counter it. Pointless crap the EU are using to divide and conquer.
What if you were the one that agreed to it for political expediency and it’s not being imposed by an outside party for their own ends? But you’re now pretending it is for your own domestic ends because that’s easier than admitting reality and the media can be relied upon to promote that story?Maybe we should have negotiated a protocol involving Paris and Marseille or Munich and Frankfurt to counter it. Pointless crap the EU are using to divide and conquer.
I’m sure you’d find it difficult to implement in those circumstances, but not for the reason you’re implying.
Good grief, you are all still arguing it!
Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
sunbeam alpine said:
paulrockliffe said:
sunbeam alpine said:
Many have reduced their dependence on UK sales. I don't claim to know the whole market, but I know that one of the largest fresh meat producers here in Belgium, who were delivering more than 50% of their production into the UK at the time of the Brexit vote, were delivering less than 5% of their production by the end of last year.
You also need to bear in mind that the UK needs imported meat - at least in the short term - and that the ways things are going at the moment, UK meat production is more likely to decrease than increase.
How have they reduced their dependence? Surely that's short hand for "We've lost 45% of our sales, so we're making a load of you redundant".You also need to bear in mind that the UK needs imported meat - at least in the short term - and that the ways things are going at the moment, UK meat production is more likely to decrease than increase.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/commentisfree...
DeejRC said:
Good grief, you are all still arguing it!
Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
As long as you can repeat "inept" and "from a weak position" it might one day become reality.Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
Because VDL, VDL baby....."because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year" "VDL is inept".
The EU, obviously from a weak position, remember "they need us more than we need them", they're are so so weak.
Sigh (bigly).
DeltonaS said:
As long as you can repeat "inept" and "from a weak position" it might one day become reality.
Because VDL, VDL baby....."because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year" "VDL is inept".
The EU, obviously from a weak position, remember "they need us more than we need them", they're are so so weak.
Sigh (bigly).
Please provide a précis of VdL’s achievements? Because VDL, VDL baby....."because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year" "VDL is inept".
The EU, obviously from a weak position, remember "they need us more than we need them", they're are so so weak.
Sigh (bigly).
I’m open minded and very happy for you to give a reasoned run down of her qualities, achievements and leadership
I’m all ears
DeejRC said:
Good grief, you are all still arguing it!
Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
That’s not actually what sway was arguing.Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
Regardless, I’m enjoying your posts on this topic, but still think you’re overplaying the VDL card. The EU will either coalesce to defend her or dump her, either way the uk will still be in the same hole.
Eu being on the weak side my arse if you’re building that argument on the ability of one politician. She’s not a hopeless Hancock
.I agree with your opinion that the NI protocol matters little to the uk gov but not on your opinion of the uk having the Eu’s balls in a vice over it. They’ve achieved their objectives so implying there’s more to squeeze to save face is questionable.
Earthdweller said:
DeltonaS said:
As long as you can repeat "inept" and "from a weak position" it might one day become reality.
Because VDL, VDL baby....."because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year" "VDL is inept".
The EU, obviously from a weak position, remember "they need us more than we need them", they're are so so weak.
Sigh (bigly).
Please provide a précis of VdL’s achievements? Because VDL, VDL baby....."because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year" "VDL is inept".
The EU, obviously from a weak position, remember "they need us more than we need them", they're are so so weak.
Sigh (bigly).
I’m open minded and very happy for you to give a reasoned run down of her qualities, achievements and leadership
I’m all ears
As I posted on June 15th:
DeltonaS said:
Unlike the UK, Foreign policy concerning the EU is a competency that lies with the memberstates. The EU therefor can't be blamed for it's lack of foreign policy if the memberstates don't want the EU to be competent in this area
The powers of the European Union are limited in the field of foreign policy. Each Member State has a veto when voting in the Council on this policy area. An important cause of the difficult European cooperation in this area is the resistance of Member States to transfer competences in this area to the EU. Foreign policy is considered a core part of national sovereignty. In recent years, however, pressure on the EU to present itself has grown due to US isolationism during the Trump presidency and China's emergence as a global player.
The powers of the European Union are limited in the field of foreign policy. Each Member State has a veto when voting in the Council on this policy area. An important cause of the difficult European cooperation in this area is the resistance of Member States to transfer competences in this area to the EU. Foreign policy is considered a core part of national sovereignty. In recent years, however, pressure on the EU to present itself has grown due to US isolationism during the Trump presidency and China's emergence as a global player.
DeltonaS said:
Earthdweller said:
DeltonaS said:
As long as you can repeat "inept" and "from a weak position" it might one day become reality.
Because VDL, VDL baby....."because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year" "VDL is inept".
The EU, obviously from a weak position, remember "they need us more than we need them", they're are so so weak.
Sigh (bigly).
Please provide a précis of VdL’s achievements? Because VDL, VDL baby....."because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year" "VDL is inept".
The EU, obviously from a weak position, remember "they need us more than we need them", they're are so so weak.
Sigh (bigly).
I’m open minded and very happy for you to give a reasoned run down of her qualities, achievements and leadership
I’m all ears
As I posted on June 15th:
DeltonaS said:
Unlike the UK, Foreign policy concerning the EU is a competency that lies with the memberstates. The EU therefor can't be blamed for it's lack of foreign policy if the memberstates don't want the EU to be competent in this area
The powers of the European Union are limited in the field of foreign policy. Each Member State has a veto when voting in the Council on this policy area. An important cause of the difficult European cooperation in this area is the resistance of Member States to transfer competences in this area to the EU. Foreign policy is considered a core part of national sovereignty. In recent years, however, pressure on the EU to present itself has grown due to US isolationism during the Trump presidency and China's emergence as a global player.
The powers of the European Union are limited in the field of foreign policy. Each Member State has a veto when voting in the Council on this policy area. An important cause of the difficult European cooperation in this area is the resistance of Member States to transfer competences in this area to the EU. Foreign policy is considered a core part of national sovereignty. In recent years, however, pressure on the EU to present itself has grown due to US isolationism during the Trump presidency and China's emergence as a global player.
DeltonaS said:
DeejRC said:
Good grief, you are all still arguing it!
Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
As long as you can repeat "inept" and "from a weak position" it might one day become reality.Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
Because VDL, VDL baby....."because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year" "VDL is inept".
The EU, obviously from a weak position, remember "they need us more than we need them", they're are so so weak.
Sigh (bigly).
Unlike you, I actually need VDL to stop cocking up because it doesn’t affect you, whereas it does affect me. Boris I’ve already taken steps to ensure doesn’t affect me.
Mortarboard said:
Well, I’d have to say Brexit made an impact on EU members. Can’t see any increased appetite for leaving the “club” following Brexit
M.
You’ll probably get a few wall chart responses on eu dissatisfaction that ignore general government dissatisfaction.M.
The funniest wrong ones have to be the ones that think there will be an Irexit to follow Brexit.
But I suppose some people believe this tripe https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1451749/br...
Meanwhile in reality (old article I know but I doubt it has changed that much) https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0428/1135186-european...
If the uk make a proper success of brexit it will change opinions. But other countries will not be basing the success on what the express and telegraph print.
roger.mellie said:
DeejRC said:
Good grief, you are all still arguing it!
Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
That’s not actually what sway was arguing.Sway is correct, the upside for all this is with Boris, Frost and the UK. It always has been as soon as it was agreed. It still is, for the very simple reason - they dont need to do anything. Every outcome is a winner. The EU, unfortunately, has to try and get an outcome because VDL, well...because VDL.
The legal aspect, or the Joint Committee or whatever is of no importance or relevance. The EU has been daft enough to try and take a hardline, but from a weak position and happily done so. If it had all been the softly softly stuff, then everybody - in traditional Irish fudge style - gets to walk away happy and pretend nobody can see the problems. This way however, it all gets played out in public and the UK can just sit there and be obstinate and not care. Everybody on the Irish sides cares and because VDL has been such an utter disaster with a disastrous year, the political pressure is get something.
Arrgh, VDL is inept!! She has single handedly used up damn nr every bit of bloody ammunition the EU sodding has this year, on everything! She makes Boris look a political genius.
Regardless, I’m enjoying your posts on this topic, but still think you’re overplaying the VDL card. The EU will either coalesce to defend her or dump her, either way the uk will still be in the same hole.
Eu being on the weak side my arse if you’re building that argument on the ability of one politician. She’s not a hopeless Hancock
.I agree with your opinion that the NI protocol matters little to the uk gov but not on your opinion of the uk having the Eu’s balls in a vice over it. They’ve achieved their objectives so implying there’s more to squeeze to save face is questionable.
VDL is vastly worse than Hancock unfortunately
Do you have any idea of the jokes and memes going round Germany on her? She is…worse than Gordon Brown My old Italian colleagues and neighbours are blaming the rise of Madame Loony in Italy directly on her. The EU have achieved their objectives in the same way that they won the vaccine court case. Politically it’s been a disastrous year for the EU, and I say these posts very much wearing my EU hat not the British one.
You must Roge, you are slightly biased on the Irish threads, you have a dog in the fight
. Ireland doesn’t affect me at all, but VDL’s wider performance unfortunately does Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff