Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
andymadmak said:
Against all this I weighed my thoughts on the future of the EU - the direction of travel (if you like) and I felt that the UK remaining in and participating in those plans was not something I wanted to see or for my grandchildren to be part of.
A federal EU state may still be some ways away, but in my considered opinion it's coming as surely as night follows day. The upcoming extension of QMV into areas previously requiring all to agree was for me a very clear indication that, bit by bit, the 'safeguards' that many in the Remain camp were so confident in and which they believed would prevent a slide to a federal position that even many retainers did not want to see, were actually being gradually dismantled.
2016 seemed to be a Nexus point, a time to decide to be 100% in or 100% out (yes I know its not THAT simple) It was the point when the frog in the pan recognised the rising temperature and had to decide to stay and become part of the soup, or leave and find a new way to stay warm. To me, that seemed to be a far more serious question than whether I needed to fill in an extra form to take my car to Italy..
I agree with this point, the holding of the referendum regardless of result would have resulted in a change in the U.K.s position in the EU in my view.A federal EU state may still be some ways away, but in my considered opinion it's coming as surely as night follows day. The upcoming extension of QMV into areas previously requiring all to agree was for me a very clear indication that, bit by bit, the 'safeguards' that many in the Remain camp were so confident in and which they believed would prevent a slide to a federal position that even many retainers did not want to see, were actually being gradually dismantled.
2016 seemed to be a Nexus point, a time to decide to be 100% in or 100% out (yes I know its not THAT simple) It was the point when the frog in the pan recognised the rising temperature and had to decide to stay and become part of the soup, or leave and find a new way to stay warm. To me, that seemed to be a far more serious question than whether I needed to fill in an extra form to take my car to Italy..
A vote to remain would have been seized upon as tacit agreement for further integration with the unforeseen circumstance of Covid accelerating this further.
I don’t personally see how avid remainers square the argument that the U.K. should have remained and continued to be a lukewarm participant. This seems to be a prime example of “cake and eat it” for which leavers got so much criticism throughout the negotiations.
andymadmak said:
Against all this I weighed my thoughts on the future of the EU - the direction of travel (if you like) and I felt that the UK remaining in and participating in those plans was not something I wanted to see or for my grandchildren to be part of.
A federal EU state may still be some ways away, but in my considered opinion it's coming as surely as night follows day. The upcoming extension of QMV into areas previously requiring all to agree was for me a very clear indication that, bit by bit, the 'safeguards' that many in the Remain camp were so confident in and which they believed would prevent a slide to a federal position that even many retainers did not want to see, were actually being gradually dismantled.
2016 seemed to be a Nexus point, a time to decide to be 100% in or 100% out (yes I know its not THAT simple) It was the point when the frog in the pan recognised the rising temperature and had to decide to stay and become part of the soup, or leave and find a new way to stay warm. To me, that seemed to be a far more serious question than whether I needed to fill in an extra form to take my car to Italy..
I think your views mirror those of many. There has been much talk about the lies told by the Leave side in the referendum campaign - of which there were undoubtedly some - but (IMO) one of the biggest lies of all was a vote to Remain was a vote for the status quo and no change. In the short-term that was certainly true but in the medium and long-term I didn't believe that was likely to be the case and hence for me June 2016 was the last opportunity to get off a train that was heading to a destination I didn't want to go. I don't think we've handled the Brexit process terribly well - not least because for several years we had a Parliament fighting the result of a referendum they chose to give - but on balance I'm still happy leaving was the right way to go... A federal EU state may still be some ways away, but in my considered opinion it's coming as surely as night follows day. The upcoming extension of QMV into areas previously requiring all to agree was for me a very clear indication that, bit by bit, the 'safeguards' that many in the Remain camp were so confident in and which they believed would prevent a slide to a federal position that even many retainers did not want to see, were actually being gradually dismantled.
2016 seemed to be a Nexus point, a time to decide to be 100% in or 100% out (yes I know its not THAT simple) It was the point when the frog in the pan recognised the rising temperature and had to decide to stay and become part of the soup, or leave and find a new way to stay warm. To me, that seemed to be a far more serious question than whether I needed to fill in an extra form to take my car to Italy..
ElectricSoup said:
You people are quite, quite mad. You genuinely think these 5 stories provide costed evidence that the benefits of leaving outweigh the costs?
Absolutely 24-carat raving mental. Utter, utter denial of object reality.
Nope, I think that those five stories make you a liar when you say you have not seen a single piece of evidence of positive outcomes from Brexit.Absolutely 24-carat raving mental. Utter, utter denial of object reality.
To anyone living in the real world, of course we accept that such a massive social, political and economic change will be disruptive - but evidence of disruption is not evidence of a poor overall outcome. Hence you get a fairly dismissive response to the 'disaster' story that some roaming charges are to be re-introduced.
But no doubt you're going to remove yourself from this thread as you clearly don't like people disagreeing with your views - much easier to maintain a viewpoint if you ignore any challenges to your personal reality.
andymadmak said:
I think there is some truth to this. Both see the other's issues as irrelevant or unworthy of consideration.
As a Brexit voter I personally DID consider the question of my loss of FOM. I decided in the end that for the most part the worst that was going to happen was that I might have to fill in an extra form when travelling into EU Schengen zone, and that I might be restricted in other minor ways such as how long I could stay or how easily I might seek employment (if I ever did need to).
In reality, I felt that any potential disruption to me personally, and probably the overwhelming majority of UK citizens would be negligible. Some in the Remain camp will however see even these minor inconveniences as significant for them. Some may even feel that the loss of something they perhaps never intended to use themselves represents a serious reduction in freedoms. I don't share those views, but I can see how some might hold them.
On balance I believe (note believe, not know) that the overwhelming majority of UK citizens will not see any substantive change in their ability to enjoy time on the continent, be that for holidays, travel or even work (for skilled people). I also suspect that some additional 'freedoms' may be recovered in the future once the Brexit experience has faded on both sides of the channel, and politicians start to explore ways to cooperate on things like student travel etc. I might be naive in that regard, but these situations are rarely if ever set in stone, and I expect things to change over the coming years.
Against all this I weighed my thoughts on the future of the EU - the direction of travel (if you like) and I felt that the UK remaining in and participating in those plans was not something I wanted to see or for my grandchildren to be part of.
A federal EU state may still be some ways away, but in my considered opinion it's coming as surely as night follows day. The upcoming extension of QMV into areas previously requiring all to agree was for me a very clear indication that, bit by bit, the 'safeguards' that many in the Remain camp were so confident in and which they believed would prevent a slide to a federal position that even many retainers did not want to see, were actually being gradually dismantled.
2016 seemed to be a Nexus point, a time to decide to be 100% in or 100% out (yes I know its not THAT simple) It was the point when the frog in the pan recognised the rising temperature and had to decide to stay and become part of the soup, or leave and find a new way to stay warm. To me, that seemed to be a far more serious question than whether I needed to fill in an extra form to take my car to Italy..
It seems a bit odd that you contradict yourself with such certainty...!!!As a Brexit voter I personally DID consider the question of my loss of FOM. I decided in the end that for the most part the worst that was going to happen was that I might have to fill in an extra form when travelling into EU Schengen zone, and that I might be restricted in other minor ways such as how long I could stay or how easily I might seek employment (if I ever did need to).
In reality, I felt that any potential disruption to me personally, and probably the overwhelming majority of UK citizens would be negligible. Some in the Remain camp will however see even these minor inconveniences as significant for them. Some may even feel that the loss of something they perhaps never intended to use themselves represents a serious reduction in freedoms. I don't share those views, but I can see how some might hold them.
On balance I believe (note believe, not know) that the overwhelming majority of UK citizens will not see any substantive change in their ability to enjoy time on the continent, be that for holidays, travel or even work (for skilled people). I also suspect that some additional 'freedoms' may be recovered in the future once the Brexit experience has faded on both sides of the channel, and politicians start to explore ways to cooperate on things like student travel etc. I might be naive in that regard, but these situations are rarely if ever set in stone, and I expect things to change over the coming years.
Against all this I weighed my thoughts on the future of the EU - the direction of travel (if you like) and I felt that the UK remaining in and participating in those plans was not something I wanted to see or for my grandchildren to be part of.
A federal EU state may still be some ways away, but in my considered opinion it's coming as surely as night follows day. The upcoming extension of QMV into areas previously requiring all to agree was for me a very clear indication that, bit by bit, the 'safeguards' that many in the Remain camp were so confident in and which they believed would prevent a slide to a federal position that even many retainers did not want to see, were actually being gradually dismantled.
2016 seemed to be a Nexus point, a time to decide to be 100% in or 100% out (yes I know its not THAT simple) It was the point when the frog in the pan recognised the rising temperature and had to decide to stay and become part of the soup, or leave and find a new way to stay warm. To me, that seemed to be a far more serious question than whether I needed to fill in an extra form to take my car to Italy..
Unknown_User said:
It seems a bit odd that you contradict yourself with such certainty...!!!
And what exactly do you bring to this debate.A totally one sided antagonistic approach that adds nothing.
You are absolutely part of the problem, and I wouldn't be surprised if you are a professional shill.
You also have to consider that many European countries have moved on from this. Not a day goes by that there is not some Brexit related news in the news in Britain.
But you really have to look for it being mentioned outside of Britain unless it is something specific that is news worthy, but many view this as an internal political issue, like the Bungabunga parties in Italy were viewed in Britain.
I get the feeling that people want a fight, they want the EU to invade. It was all their fault things were bad, the pot holes in the street or the thing that has failed within their community. I often wondered why if it was all the guiding hand of Brussels why it was not the same issues when you go to other European countries they did not have the same problems and they are still in the EU?
The Australian trade deal is a good example of the Brexit focus. Basically in Britain it was all about how Tescos would be effected.
Here in Finland there were tangible results as we build 5g towers that aren't made in China, the mining industry in Australia are buying rock processing machinery and Nuclear power station discussions as Finland has found a solution to the nuclear waste issue.
There are others, but it was seen as much more amicable with Australia on what we could give to them and how Australia could benefit from doing business with us.
No flexing about what chair we would make them sit on whilst negotiating with them or how many of our louts would be pissing on Bondi beach this Christmas. Just results and this isn't us trying to thwart Britain as a first priority and keep score to underscore something.
But you really have to look for it being mentioned outside of Britain unless it is something specific that is news worthy, but many view this as an internal political issue, like the Bungabunga parties in Italy were viewed in Britain.
I get the feeling that people want a fight, they want the EU to invade. It was all their fault things were bad, the pot holes in the street or the thing that has failed within their community. I often wondered why if it was all the guiding hand of Brussels why it was not the same issues when you go to other European countries they did not have the same problems and they are still in the EU?
The Australian trade deal is a good example of the Brexit focus. Basically in Britain it was all about how Tescos would be effected.
Here in Finland there were tangible results as we build 5g towers that aren't made in China, the mining industry in Australia are buying rock processing machinery and Nuclear power station discussions as Finland has found a solution to the nuclear waste issue.
There are others, but it was seen as much more amicable with Australia on what we could give to them and how Australia could benefit from doing business with us.
No flexing about what chair we would make them sit on whilst negotiating with them or how many of our louts would be pissing on Bondi beach this Christmas. Just results and this isn't us trying to thwart Britain as a first priority and keep score to underscore something.
JeffreyD said:
And what exactly do you bring to this debate.
A totally one sided antagonistic approach that adds nothing.
You are absolutely part of the problem, and I wouldn't be surprised if you are a professional shill.
When the poster announces things he doesn't like will change (and uses this to back his side of the discussion up) and then proclaims in the same post that unsubstantiated negatives that he highlights are set in stone, then it is right to point the hypocrisy out. A totally one sided antagonistic approach that adds nothing.
You are absolutely part of the problem, and I wouldn't be surprised if you are a professional shill.
silentbrown said:
Except, trade deals aside, they have sod all to do with Brexit.
Remain was predicated on instant recession, jobs leaving the country (airbus, the city, pharma, food etc.) and a whole load of "sod all to to do with Brexit" claimed economic and social effects.You can't separate signs of a healthy economy attracting global investment from regulatory speed bumps just because one slightly removed from the direct changes involved in implementing Brexit.
Unknown_User said:
When the poster announces things he doesn't like will change (and uses this to back his side of the discussion up) and then proclaims in the same post that unsubstantiated negatives that he highlights are set in stone, then it is right to point the hypocrisy out.
That doesn't change anything in my post.Unknown_User said:
When the poster announces things he doesn't like will change (and uses this to back his side of the discussion up) and then proclaims in the same post that unsubstantiated negatives that he highlights are set in stone, then it is right to point the hypocrisy out.
I didn't understand that 
sisu said:
You also have to consider that many European countries have moved on from this. Not a day goes by that there is not some Brexit related news in the news in Britain.
But you really have to look for it being mentioned outside of Britain unless it is something specific that is news worthy, but many view this as an internal political issue, like the Bungabunga parties in Italy were viewed in Britain.
I get the feeling that people want a fight, they want the EU to invade. It was all their fault things were bad, the pot holes in the street or the thing that has failed within their community. I often wondered why if it was all the guiding hand of Brussels why it was not the same issues when you go to other European countries they did not have the same problems and they are still in the EU?
The Australian trade deal is a good example of the Brexit focus. Basically in Britain it was all about how Tescos would be effected.
Here in Finland there were tangible results as we build 5g towers that aren't made in China, the mining industry in Australia are buying rock processing machinery and Nuclear power station discussions as Finland has found a solution to the nuclear waste issue.
There are others, but it was seen as much more amicable with Australia on what we could give to them and how Australia could benefit from doing business with us.
No flexing about what chair we would make them sit on whilst negotiating with them or how many of our louts would be pissing on Bondi beach this Christmas. Just results and this isn't us trying to thwart Britain as a first priority and keep score to underscore something.
‘Finland has found a solution to the nuclear waste issue’!! let’s bury it deep underground doesn’t seem much of a solution to me!! OK I’m not a nuclear scientist, but just how this is deemed to be a solution baffles me, out of sight out of mind. I expect ‘experts’ will hold the answers but tens of thousands of years buried underground safe?? But you really have to look for it being mentioned outside of Britain unless it is something specific that is news worthy, but many view this as an internal political issue, like the Bungabunga parties in Italy were viewed in Britain.
I get the feeling that people want a fight, they want the EU to invade. It was all their fault things were bad, the pot holes in the street or the thing that has failed within their community. I often wondered why if it was all the guiding hand of Brussels why it was not the same issues when you go to other European countries they did not have the same problems and they are still in the EU?
The Australian trade deal is a good example of the Brexit focus. Basically in Britain it was all about how Tescos would be effected.
Here in Finland there were tangible results as we build 5g towers that aren't made in China, the mining industry in Australia are buying rock processing machinery and Nuclear power station discussions as Finland has found a solution to the nuclear waste issue.
There are others, but it was seen as much more amicable with Australia on what we could give to them and how Australia could benefit from doing business with us.
No flexing about what chair we would make them sit on whilst negotiating with them or how many of our louts would be pissing on Bondi beach this Christmas. Just results and this isn't us trying to thwart Britain as a first priority and keep score to underscore something.
Anyway, back to worrysome problems like roaming charges
andymadmak said:
I think there is some truth to this. Both see the other's issues as irrelevant or unworthy of consideration.
As a Brexit voter I personally DID consider the question of my loss of FOM. I decided in the end that for the most part the worst that was going to happen was that I might have to fill in an extra form when travelling into EU Schengen zone, and that I might be restricted in other minor ways such as how long I could stay or how easily I might seek employment (if I ever did need to).
In reality, I felt that any potential disruption to me personally, and probably the overwhelming majority of UK citizens would be negligible. Some in the Remain camp will however see even these minor inconveniences as significant for them. Some may even feel that the loss of something they perhaps never intended to use themselves represents a serious reduction in freedoms. I don't share those views, but I can see how some might hold them.
On balance I believe (note believe, not know) that the overwhelming majority of UK citizens will not see any substantive change in their ability to enjoy time on the continent, be that for holidays, travel or even work (for skilled people). I also suspect that some additional 'freedoms' may be recovered in the future once the Brexit experience has faded on both sides of the channel, and politicians start to explore ways to cooperate on things like student travel etc. I might be naive in that regard, but these situations are rarely if ever set in stone, and I expect things to change over the coming years.
Against all this I weighed my thoughts on the future of the EU - the direction of travel (if you like) and I felt that the UK remaining in and participating in those plans was not something I wanted to see or for my grandchildren to be part of.
A federal EU state may still be some ways away, but in my considered opinion it's coming as surely as night follows day. The upcoming extension of QMV into areas previously requiring all to agree was for me a very clear indication that, bit by bit, the 'safeguards' that many in the Remain camp were so confident in and which they believed would prevent a slide to a federal position that even many retainers did not want to see, were actually being gradually dismantled.
2016 seemed to be a Nexus point, a time to decide to be 100% in or 100% out (yes I know its not THAT simple) It was the point when the frog in the pan recognised the rising temperature and had to decide to stay and become part of the soup, or leave and find a new way to stay warm. To me, that seemed to be a far more serious question than whether I needed to fill in an extra form to take my car to Italy..
As a Brexit voter I personally DID consider the question of my loss of FOM. I decided in the end that for the most part the worst that was going to happen was that I might have to fill in an extra form when travelling into EU Schengen zone, and that I might be restricted in other minor ways such as how long I could stay or how easily I might seek employment (if I ever did need to).
In reality, I felt that any potential disruption to me personally, and probably the overwhelming majority of UK citizens would be negligible. Some in the Remain camp will however see even these minor inconveniences as significant for them. Some may even feel that the loss of something they perhaps never intended to use themselves represents a serious reduction in freedoms. I don't share those views, but I can see how some might hold them.
On balance I believe (note believe, not know) that the overwhelming majority of UK citizens will not see any substantive change in their ability to enjoy time on the continent, be that for holidays, travel or even work (for skilled people). I also suspect that some additional 'freedoms' may be recovered in the future once the Brexit experience has faded on both sides of the channel, and politicians start to explore ways to cooperate on things like student travel etc. I might be naive in that regard, but these situations are rarely if ever set in stone, and I expect things to change over the coming years.
Against all this I weighed my thoughts on the future of the EU - the direction of travel (if you like) and I felt that the UK remaining in and participating in those plans was not something I wanted to see or for my grandchildren to be part of.
A federal EU state may still be some ways away, but in my considered opinion it's coming as surely as night follows day. The upcoming extension of QMV into areas previously requiring all to agree was for me a very clear indication that, bit by bit, the 'safeguards' that many in the Remain camp were so confident in and which they believed would prevent a slide to a federal position that even many retainers did not want to see, were actually being gradually dismantled.
2016 seemed to be a Nexus point, a time to decide to be 100% in or 100% out (yes I know its not THAT simple) It was the point when the frog in the pan recognised the rising temperature and had to decide to stay and become part of the soup, or leave and find a new way to stay warm. To me, that seemed to be a far more serious question than whether I needed to fill in an extra form to take my car to Italy..
barryrs said:
I agree with this point, the holding of the referendum regardless of result would have resulted in a change in the U.K.s position in the EU in my view.
A vote to remain would have been seized upon as tacit agreement for further integration with the unforeseen circumstance of Covid accelerating this further.
I don’t personally see how avid remainers square the argument that the U.K. should have remained and continued to be a lukewarm participant. This seems to be a prime example of “cake and eat it” for which leavers got so much criticism throughout the negotiations.
A vote to remain would have been seized upon as tacit agreement for further integration with the unforeseen circumstance of Covid accelerating this further.
I don’t personally see how avid remainers square the argument that the U.K. should have remained and continued to be a lukewarm participant. This seems to be a prime example of “cake and eat it” for which leavers got so much criticism throughout the negotiations.
JNW1 said:
I think your views mirror those of many. There has been much talk about the lies told by the Leave side in the referendum campaign - of which there were undoubtedly some - but (IMO) one of the biggest lies of all was a vote to Remain was a vote for the status quo and no change. In the short-term that was certainly true but in the medium and long-term I didn't believe that was likely to be the case and hence for me June 2016 was the last opportunity to get off a train that was heading to a destination I didn't want to go. I don't think we've handled the Brexit process terribly well - not least because for several years we had a Parliament fighting the result of a referendum they chose to give - but on balance I'm still happy leaving was the right way to go...
Key points, it was very much a "once in a lifetime" opportunity and one that was thankfully grasped when the opportunity arose.Zero regrets here.
Listening to a panel discussion on the radio on Tuesday. Both leavers and remainers.
There was an interesting stat from polls the show quoted
Most leavers still think we should have left
Most remainers still think we should have remained
Most undecided now think we should have remained
Percentages. 51 percent remain 49 percent leave
There was an interesting stat from polls the show quoted
Most leavers still think we should have left
Most remainers still think we should have remained
Most undecided now think we should have remained
Percentages. 51 percent remain 49 percent leave
It’s now claimed that we face a summer of food shortages due to (amongst other things) Brexit.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-facing-summer...
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-facing-summer...
Unknown_User said:
It’s now claimed that we face a summer of food shortages due to (amongst other things) Brexit.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-facing-summer...
Yup, this has been reported over main media outlets or several months, are lorry drivers so badly paid and the hours so demanding to make the work unattractive? Seems so.https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-facing-summer...
crankedup5 said:
Unknown_User said:
It’s now claimed that we face a summer of food shortages due to (amongst other things) Brexit.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-facing-summer...
Yup, this has been reported over main media outlets or several months, are lorry drivers so badly paid and the hours so demanding to make the work unattractive? Seems so.https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-facing-summer...
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