Vaccine/Health Passports
Discussion
Incidentally can you imagine the furore if a group of companies started asking the government facilitate an AIDS passport so they can open safely and let their customers engage with each other worry free.
Yes sure it's a small risk and mostly to certain groups, it can be easily mitigated in other ways, but our customers would feel much safer about it and it reduces the spread.
Yes sure it's a small risk and mostly to certain groups, it can be easily mitigated in other ways, but our customers would feel much safer about it and it reduces the spread.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Incidentally can you imagine the furore if a group of companies started asking the government facilitate an AIDS passport so they can open safely and let their customers engage with each other worry free.
Yes sure it's a small risk and mostly to certain groups, it can be easily mitigated in other ways, but our customers would feel much safer about it and it reduces the spread.
Interesting points - they had some chap on TalkRadio this morning spouting the opinion that Vaccine Passports could be a way of "boosting confidence" for people wanting to use theatres/pubs, etc. It's surprising, as (as far as I am aware) there hasn't yet been confirmed studies that the vaccine removes all risks anyway, so there would still be a risk in these places. If people really need a 'confidence boost' to facilitate their use of public areas then I think it is morally wrong to coerce others (and to potentially put others' health at risk) to pander to these 'needs'.Yes sure it's a small risk and mostly to certain groups, it can be easily mitigated in other ways, but our customers would feel much safer about it and it reduces the spread.
jameswills said:
citizensm1th said:
It will play out just like the annual flu jab.
As you may tell from my forum name I really really do not like our current government and I would love to turn this into a rich vs poor argument but it just isn't.
Honestly the level of paranoid thinking on this issue is staggering
There are no restrictions at all on anyone regarding the flu jab, it’s just a personal choice for your own personal well-being if you think it is necessary. No problem on the Covid jab on that level, absolutely not. But when you start implementing effectively a tiered society based on who or hasn’t had the vaccination, it is exactly how it will pan out. As you may tell from my forum name I really really do not like our current government and I would love to turn this into a rich vs poor argument but it just isn't.
Honestly the level of paranoid thinking on this issue is staggering
I don't care if other people have a jab or a dozen jabs that's up to them.
I am pretty confident that those who choose not to will have less choices than those who don't
I will personally have as many jabs as it takes to get back to a life where I can do what I want and travel where I want.
The more of you that don't means the better time I will have to be honest.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
As far as I know (which is not comprehensive) you can be prosecuted for recklessly spreading it, and this is opposed by some AIDS groups as it leads to stigma and secrecy. But that's having unprotected sex with someone and giving them an incurable disease when you knew you had it. The sentence is up to 5 years.
https://www.tht.org.uk/hiv-and-sexual-health/livin...
Governments actually moved pretty quickly to reduce stigma and discrimination against AIDS sufferers early on and we don't have AIDS passports, regular testing or travel restrictions.
Covid is a cold which the vast majority of people will survive just fine and can apparently be spread by me brushing past someone in a supermarket. An interesting comparison but not a direct one.
Would anyone have supported prosecuting people for "recklessly" spreading a cold 18 months ago?
It is not just a cold and we are far from understanding long term impacts.https://www.tht.org.uk/hiv-and-sexual-health/livin...
Governments actually moved pretty quickly to reduce stigma and discrimination against AIDS sufferers early on and we don't have AIDS passports, regular testing or travel restrictions.
Covid is a cold which the vast majority of people will survive just fine and can apparently be spread by me brushing past someone in a supermarket. An interesting comparison but not a direct one.
Would anyone have supported prosecuting people for "recklessly" spreading a cold 18 months ago?
Apparently some who have very little in the way of initial symptoms or illness are impacted very badly some time later and that impact is ongoing. Even a few children are now suffering.
We may not know for at least another year how this disease will affect people long term.
We hope those that have been vaccinated will be protected form long term impacts but we simply do not know yet.
I will go with researchers and scientists and not the vast majority of posters on here that have absolutely no expertise in the field.
It seems Israel is trialing some documentation for holidays within their country.
I expect our government will be watching with interest.
I think on balance i would carry said passport rather than have my life restricted.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Incidentally can you imagine the furore if a group of companies started asking the government facilitate an AIDS passport so they can open safely and let their customers engage with each other worry free.
Yes sure it's a small risk and mostly to certain groups, it can be easily mitigated in other ways, but our customers would feel much safer about it and it reduces the spread.
It is completely different. HIV is not transmitted in the same way as I'm sure you know.Yes sure it's a small risk and mostly to certain groups, it can be easily mitigated in other ways, but our customers would feel much safer about it and it reduces the spread.
citizensm1th said:
I will personally have as many jabs as it takes to get back to a life where I can do what I want and travel where I want.
As above - the more you do that the less likely it becomes that your former life will ever returnThe more society complies with endless boosters and restrictions, certificates etc, the less likely it is we ever return to how it was
Look not at those expressing these concerns - look in the mirror
JuanCarlosFandango said:
I wonder more generally how many people who are happy to turn the country upside down and introduce sweeping restrictions on personal liberty to slightly prolong the lives of elderly people were quite happy to ignore a referendum result a couple of years ago because the most enthusiastic voting group would soon be dead.
Your turn of phrase is very odd. Where does happy come into it? Resinged, tolerated maybe?How long is slightly?
No idea what you are trying to say in regard to the referendum bit.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
Incidentally can you imagine the furore if a group of companies started asking the government facilitate an AIDS passport so they can open safely and let their customers engage with each other worry free.
Yes sure it's a small risk and mostly to certain groups, it can be easily mitigated in other ways, but our customers would feel much safer about it and it reduces the spread.
It might help if you could differentiate between AIDS and HIVYes sure it's a small risk and mostly to certain groups, it can be easily mitigated in other ways, but our customers would feel much safer about it and it reduces the spread.
citizensm1th said:
jameswills said:
citizensm1th said:
It will play out just like the annual flu jab.
As you may tell from my forum name I really really do not like our current government and I would love to turn this into a rich vs poor argument but it just isn't.
Honestly the level of paranoid thinking on this issue is staggering
There are no restrictions at all on anyone regarding the flu jab, it’s just a personal choice for your own personal well-being if you think it is necessary. No problem on the Covid jab on that level, absolutely not. But when you start implementing effectively a tiered society based on who or hasn’t had the vaccination, it is exactly how it will pan out. As you may tell from my forum name I really really do not like our current government and I would love to turn this into a rich vs poor argument but it just isn't.
Honestly the level of paranoid thinking on this issue is staggering
I don't care if other people have a jab or a dozen jabs that's up to them.
I am pretty confident that those who choose not to will have less choices than those who don't
I will personally have as many jabs as it takes to get back to a life where I can do what I want and travel where I want.
The more of you that don't means the better time I will have to be honest.
menousername said:
citizensm1th said:
I will personally have as many jabs as it takes to get back to a life where I can do what I want and travel where I want.
As above - the more you do that the less likely it becomes that your former life will ever returnThe more society complies with endless boosters and restrictions, certificates etc, the less likely it is we ever return to how it was
Look not at those expressing these concerns - look in the mirror
Did you refuse to have a driving licence?
menousername said:
citizensm1th said:
I will personally have as many jabs as it takes to get back to a life where I can do what I want and travel where I want.
As above - the more you do that the less likely it becomes that your former life will ever returnThe more society complies with endless boosters and restrictions, certificates etc, the less likely it is we ever return to how it was
Look not at those expressing these concerns - look in the mirror
Forget the life before covid that is never coming back
Getragdogleg said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I came into this thread thinking " have the jab, get a note put on your passport, no big deal". Having read that Mr Blair is all for it I'm now convinced it's a terrible idea and part of a wider civil liberty creep.
Nothing that snake does is of any benefit to anyone except him and a few well paying cronies.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/surv...
Guardian said:
A dramatic increase in technological surveillance is a “price worth paying” to fight Covid-19, argues a report from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change.
...
“In normal times the degree of monitoring and state intervention we are talking about here would be out of the question in liberal democracies,” Yiu continued. “But these are not normal times, and the alternatives are even more unpalatable. This is quite different from the traditional debate about whether confronting security threats to our way of life merits sacrificing the values of freedom and privacy that define us.
“Covid-19 is not an ideology, and rebalancing the contract between citizens and the state to take advantage of the capabilities of new technologies is not capitulation.”
Feb 2021...
“In normal times the degree of monitoring and state intervention we are talking about here would be out of the question in liberal democracies,” Yiu continued. “But these are not normal times, and the alternatives are even more unpalatable. This is quite different from the traditional debate about whether confronting security threats to our way of life merits sacrificing the values of freedom and privacy that define us.
“Covid-19 is not an ideology, and rebalancing the contract between citizens and the state to take advantage of the capabilities of new technologies is not capitulation.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-...
Telegraph said:
Former Prime Minister Tony Blair has published his own “roadmap” out of lockdown, complete with a traffic light system for reopening different sectors of the economy, just three days before Downing Street is set to publish its own.
The Tony Blair Institute (TBI) retains strong links to the upper echelons of Whitehall and the Palace of Westminister [why????] and it's probable the new proposals will resemble those to be revealed by Boris Johnson on Monday.
...
But it warns there remain important unknowns. “Whether the vaccine programme will allow the removal of all remaining restrictions without triggering a spike in cases depends on the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing transmission and the proportion of the population covered”, it notes.
...
“By our calculations, if the NHS achieves its plans to ramp up the pace of vaccination, all adults could have been offered a first dose by the end of May. But ... even once the adult population is covered, it is far from clear that it will be possible to remove all restrictions without having in place a comprehensive containment infrastructure, likely involving digital health passes, better incentives for self-isolation and widespread availability of rapid testing.”
Feb 2021The Tony Blair Institute (TBI) retains strong links to the upper echelons of Whitehall and the Palace of Westminister [why????] and it's probable the new proposals will resemble those to be revealed by Boris Johnson on Monday.
...
But it warns there remain important unknowns. “Whether the vaccine programme will allow the removal of all remaining restrictions without triggering a spike in cases depends on the effectiveness of the vaccines at preventing transmission and the proportion of the population covered”, it notes.
...
“By our calculations, if the NHS achieves its plans to ramp up the pace of vaccination, all adults could have been offered a first dose by the end of May. But ... even once the adult population is covered, it is far from clear that it will be possible to remove all restrictions without having in place a comprehensive containment infrastructure, likely involving digital health passes, better incentives for self-isolation and widespread availability of rapid testing.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9257783...
Daily Mail said:
With my team at the Institute for Global Change, I have looked at this from every angle and come to this conclusion: there is no prospect of a return to anything like normal without enabling people to show their Covid status, whether that means they have been vaccinated or recently tested.
And the good news is that technology allows us to make this work effectively and with privacy.
More than 120 countries, including our own, already demand that international travellers show proof of a full negative test result before entry. Once vaccinations become widespread, this demand will naturally move to vaccination.
Call it a passport, a certificate or proof of status – we will want to know.
...
It is increasingly obvious that other countries feel the same. There is already a host of initiatives starting around the world with this aim in mind.
My Institute for Global Change is involved in many of them, including the CommonPass initiative from the World Economic Forum. Individual countries such as Greece, which is conscious of the huge impact of Covid on its tourist industry, are calling for global agreement on the issue. The African Union has started its own preparations.
...
The point is this: people want to know that those with whom they come into contact are relatively safe – that they are less likely to give them the disease.
This will be the case not just with travel, but with our daily lives, too – with everything from going to work to visiting elderly relatives.
We have the technology which allows us to do this securely and effectively. The need is obvious. The world is moving in this direction.
We should plan for an agreed ‘passport’ now. The arguments against it really don’t add up.
And the good news is that technology allows us to make this work effectively and with privacy.
More than 120 countries, including our own, already demand that international travellers show proof of a full negative test result before entry. Once vaccinations become widespread, this demand will naturally move to vaccination.
Call it a passport, a certificate or proof of status – we will want to know.
...
It is increasingly obvious that other countries feel the same. There is already a host of initiatives starting around the world with this aim in mind.
My Institute for Global Change is involved in many of them, including the CommonPass initiative from the World Economic Forum. Individual countries such as Greece, which is conscious of the huge impact of Covid on its tourist industry, are calling for global agreement on the issue. The African Union has started its own preparations.
...
The point is this: people want to know that those with whom they come into contact are relatively safe – that they are less likely to give them the disease.
This will be the case not just with travel, but with our daily lives, too – with everything from going to work to visiting elderly relatives.
We have the technology which allows us to do this securely and effectively. The need is obvious. The world is moving in this direction.
We should plan for an agreed ‘passport’ now. The arguments against it really don’t add up.
Nickgnome said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
As far as I know (which is not comprehensive) you can be prosecuted for recklessly spreading it, and this is opposed by some AIDS groups as it leads to stigma and secrecy. But that's having unprotected sex with someone and giving them an incurable disease when you knew you had it. The sentence is up to 5 years.
https://www.tht.org.uk/hiv-and-sexual-health/livin...
Governments actually moved pretty quickly to reduce stigma and discrimination against AIDS sufferers early on and we don't have AIDS passports, regular testing or travel restrictions.
Covid is a cold which the vast majority of people will survive just fine and can apparently be spread by me brushing past someone in a supermarket. An interesting comparison but not a direct one.
Would anyone have supported prosecuting people for "recklessly" spreading a cold 18 months ago?
It is not just a cold and we are far from understanding long term impacts.https://www.tht.org.uk/hiv-and-sexual-health/livin...
Governments actually moved pretty quickly to reduce stigma and discrimination against AIDS sufferers early on and we don't have AIDS passports, regular testing or travel restrictions.
Covid is a cold which the vast majority of people will survive just fine and can apparently be spread by me brushing past someone in a supermarket. An interesting comparison but not a direct one.
Would anyone have supported prosecuting people for "recklessly" spreading a cold 18 months ago?
Apparently some who have very little in the way of initial symptoms or illness are impacted very badly some time later and that impact is ongoing. Even a few children are now suffering.
We may not know for at least another year how this disease will affect people long term.
We hope those that have been vaccinated will be protected form long term impacts but we simply do not know yet.
I will go with researchers and scientists and not the vast majority of posters on here that have absolutely no expertise in the field.
It seems Israel is trialing some documentation for holidays within their country.
I expect our government will be watching with interest.
I think on balance i would carry said passport rather than have my life restricted.
Interesting that 'we don't know the long term consequences of Covid' so should instead immediately
Israel is actively making life difficult/impossible for those not accepting a vaccine:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/govt-said-planning-h...
Times of Israel said:
Channel 12 News reported Wednesday that officials are looking to limit access to gyms, hotels, restaurants and cultural and sports events for those who refuse to be vaccinated, while the inoculated will be able to enter freely.
As it is legally problematic to completely ban those who do not want to take the shots, a path will be available to those with fresh negative COVID-19 test results from the past 48 hours.
But health officials hope to find ways to make getting tested more difficult — thereby further encouraging more people to go for the vaccine — including charging for tests, limiting their numbers and cutting back on testing locations.
...
One official told the network, “If they are required to pay a few dozen shekels [fora COVID test] every couple days so they can enter their workplace, gym or restaurant, it will encourage them to get vaccinated.”
Israel’s Manufacturers Association has asked government officials to be able to put workers who refuse vaccinations on unpaid leave, Channel 12 also said. The association was said to request permission to demand non-vaccinated workers present a negative coronavirus test every 72 hours.
Meanwhile, the city of Ra’anana told municipal workers that if they choose to not get vaccinated, they will need to come to work in a full protective suit, starting next week. It’s not clear whether the city has the authority to mandate such attire.
As it is legally problematic to completely ban those who do not want to take the shots, a path will be available to those with fresh negative COVID-19 test results from the past 48 hours.
But health officials hope to find ways to make getting tested more difficult — thereby further encouraging more people to go for the vaccine — including charging for tests, limiting their numbers and cutting back on testing locations.
...
One official told the network, “If they are required to pay a few dozen shekels [fora COVID test] every couple days so they can enter their workplace, gym or restaurant, it will encourage them to get vaccinated.”
Israel’s Manufacturers Association has asked government officials to be able to put workers who refuse vaccinations on unpaid leave, Channel 12 also said. The association was said to request permission to demand non-vaccinated workers present a negative coronavirus test every 72 hours.
Meanwhile, the city of Ra’anana told municipal workers that if they choose to not get vaccinated, they will need to come to work in a full protective suit, starting next week. It’s not clear whether the city has the authority to mandate such attire.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Wednesday 24th February 15:17
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Wednesday 24th February 15:18
Nickgnome
I'll roll 3 into 1 to tidy up a bit.
We don't know the long term effects of the lockdown and all that entails either. Or the vaccine for that matter. It's a question of balancing risks.
I am also ethically opposed to unnecessary medical intervention. I am in general. If I have a cold or a bad stomach I'd rather tough it out than fill myself with medicine. I've refused blood pressure tablets because I prefer to hit the cause of the problem, and improving my habits did the trick.
A personal choice, but one I place some value on having the right to make.
Scientists and researchers do amazing things but they're not unanimous. I think in "following the science" they have given enormous weight to one particular interpretation of the very imperfect data we have and totally disregarded legitimate criticisms of that view.
I know AIDS is different but it can still be spread. There are many varied social activities consenting adults engage in and not having to worry about HIV would make them more enjoyable.
"Happy" probably isn't the right word exactly, prepared or even content seems to fit many better than resigned or tolerating it. For some it seems to have taken on a religious element with rituals and symbols. I find that creepy.
The referendum reference was in response to MrTT saying it was ok to introduce this major policy without a democratic mandate because the majority appear to be ok with it. I seem to remember him being all for overturning the result of the 2016 referendum a couple of years ago. If I have the wrong poster then my mistake. Then wondering aloud how many people had suddenly acquired a new found care for the elderly when it suited a cause they liked.
I'll roll 3 into 1 to tidy up a bit.
We don't know the long term effects of the lockdown and all that entails either. Or the vaccine for that matter. It's a question of balancing risks.
I am also ethically opposed to unnecessary medical intervention. I am in general. If I have a cold or a bad stomach I'd rather tough it out than fill myself with medicine. I've refused blood pressure tablets because I prefer to hit the cause of the problem, and improving my habits did the trick.
A personal choice, but one I place some value on having the right to make.
Scientists and researchers do amazing things but they're not unanimous. I think in "following the science" they have given enormous weight to one particular interpretation of the very imperfect data we have and totally disregarded legitimate criticisms of that view.
I know AIDS is different but it can still be spread. There are many varied social activities consenting adults engage in and not having to worry about HIV would make them more enjoyable.
"Happy" probably isn't the right word exactly, prepared or even content seems to fit many better than resigned or tolerating it. For some it seems to have taken on a religious element with rituals and symbols. I find that creepy.
The referendum reference was in response to MrTT saying it was ok to introduce this major policy without a democratic mandate because the majority appear to be ok with it. I seem to remember him being all for overturning the result of the 2016 referendum a couple of years ago. If I have the wrong poster then my mistake. Then wondering aloud how many people had suddenly acquired a new found care for the elderly when it suited a cause they liked.
ChrisW_77 said:
citizensm1th said:
I hate to tell you this(I'm lying) but we are never going back to how things were that ship sailed over a year ago.
Forget the life before covid that is never coming back
Nah, you do what you like but it's the old normal for me thanks. Forget the life before covid that is never coming back
Not a chance it is going to be with us as humans forever now and it may or may not mutate into something easy to deal with or it may become worse we have no idea.
But we will have to accommodate for it one way or another
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff