Vaccine/Health Passports

[MikeT66]

Nickgnome said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Nickgnome said:

That's pure waffle. What specific point are you trying to make?

That this is not really a medical issue at all. It is a political issue with heavy religious overtones. Applying logic to data will no more dissuade covid zealots of their error than they will dissuade creationists or the Taleban. I think you have previously said you will "trust the experts" which is fine, but a leap of faith every bit as much as trusting the priests.

The situations are completely different. There are numerous religions. Evidence of the existence of 'God' is based on faith.

Science is different.

But we already have vastly different opinions in the 'science' on this. I'm sure Galilei, Newton and Darwin had very different 'scientific' opinions to others - it was always thus.

It comes down to that 'leap of faith' as JCF mention - what is your 'scientific' religion? For me, the continuation of democratic principle and civil liberties for all is paramount - the introduction of any kind of 'passport' for internal freedom/movement within this country is the driving factor. These must only ever be surrendered after great scrutiny and agreement of 'science' - something that this situation falls very short of.

To end, I trust the current government not one bit to sensibly look after and manage any additional powers - their blind greed and mismanagement (look at those dodgy PPI contracts, etc) shows they are not trustworthy with such great responsibility.

[MikeT66]

Nickgnome said:

MikeT66 said:

But we already have vastly different opinions in the 'science' on this. I'm sure Galilei, Newton and Darwin had very different 'scientific' opinions to others - it was always thus.

It comes down to that 'leap of faith' as JCF mention - what is your 'scientific' religion? For me, the continuation of democratic principle and civil liberties for all is paramount - the introduction of any kind of 'passport' for internal freedom/movement within this country is the driving factor. These must only ever be surrendered after great scrutiny and agreement of 'science' - something that this situation falls very short of.

To end, I trust the current government not one bit to sensibly look after and manage any additional powers - their blind greed and mismanagement (look at those dodgy PPI contracts, etc) shows they are not trustworthy with such great responsibility.

I do not know what you do, but do you consider yourself an expert in your field. Do people come to you for that expertise?

Science is not a faith. When a number of health professionals and scientists across the globe form a consensus I would suggest we believe them.

Of course the politics is different.

As I see it you go with the consensus or have your life restricted.

I was a Mental Health professional for twenty years. In that field, as well as 'science', there were many differing viewpoints. Regardless of what you think, there are indeed differing viewpoints on the efficacy of lockdowns and the real threat of the virus to a large part of society.

I don't think anyone should have restrictions on their life outside of criminal convictions. If that is what you are considering an acceptable society, I think we have different ideas on what that constitutes.

[MikeT66]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Indeed. With little to add to the debate.

[MikeT66]

Nickgnome said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

SCEtoAUX said:

You don't need scientific qualifiations to understand what is blindingly obvious though. Despite a highly effective vaccine having been given to well over half of the adult population, the government still wants to impose restrictions of varying degrees to the population.

Also blindingly obvious is that a vaccine passport is going to be used as a method of coercion and control.

Consider the following:

1 - A passport does not prove you do not have COVID
2 - A passport does not prove you cannot catch COVID
3 - A passport does not prove that you cannot give COVID to others

All a COVID passport proves is that you have had a COVID vaccination.

People are free not to have a vaccination, and by extension, free to decide if they wish to live with an increased risk of catching COVID. A disease, let us not forget, which 99.3% of people survive. Those are decent odds, so if the government does introduce a passport scheme to allow people into pubs and restaurants, they are saying this:

"You may choose not to be vaccinated, in which case you may not enter a pub, restaurant, or any other premises which we decide falls under such a scheme. The reason you may not enter is because whilst you are free to not be vaccinated, there is a chance that you have COVID, have no symptoms, and will infect someone who has been vaccinated but the vaccine wasn't effective for them. We recognise that that same person could catch COVID from someone who has a vaccine passport, or that that person could catch COVID in countless other places. We also recognise that someone who has been vaccinated could also have COVID, display no symptoms, and spread it to other people".

Given the above I find it very hard to consider that COVID passports are the way that the government is going to try and compel everyone to be vaccinated, and I think this is very, very dangerous ground.

Exactly this.

It seems neither of you understand risk mitigation.

What i find astonishing is you wish life to go back to normal but will rather fight against compliance rather than taking the sensible precautions to reduce risk both to yourselves and more importantly to others. It seems very selfish to me.

"Sensible precautions"? We stopped following that road back in May 2020. And risk mitigation? I did Health & Safety for many years, and there is no way that our reaction to this facade has been in any way a balanced risk-considered approach. As for selfish... we know exactly who they are; the ones who have bought into the mantra, clapping as other illnesses are ignored and discarded, shouting about compliance when people are losing jobs, homes and lives due to lockdown measures, the IDGAF/I'm Alright Jack crowd who have not ever had to look at their own existence nor worry about survival as they twitch behind the curtains and tut at people bending the rules in order to put food on the table or just manage their mental health. And those that would happily see a segregated society, with innocent people effectively criminalised and side-lined for their refusal to kowtow to government propaganda.

[MikeT66]

Well, it looks like a decision soon... but with Starmer and Lib-Dems speaking out against such a scheme, we are perhaps in for an uncertain result.

As expected...
Covid-19: Vaccines and vaccine passports being sold on darknet

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56489574

Funniest bit in that report is " Oded Vanunu, head of product vulnerabilities research at Check Point said: "It's imperative for people to understand that attempting to obtain a vaccine, a vaccination card or negative Covid-19 test result by unofficial means is extremely risky, as hackers are more interested in your money, information and identity for exploitation." "



And the government wouldn't do that, would they?

I understand that other countries can make their own decisions, but remain of the opinion that and kind of passport to access services/free movement in this country is a very steep and slippery slope. Unless this is stopped now I do think we'll regret it once the goalpost move - as invariably as they will, if this is implemented.

[MikeT66]

Murph7355 said:

MikeT66 said:

....
I understand that other countries can make their own decisions, but remain of the opinion that and kind of passport to access services/free movement in this country is a very steep and slippery slope. Unless this is stopped now I do think we'll regret it once the goalpost move - as invariably as they will, if this is implemented.

Can you give examples of where you think they will move to?

With you noting about other countries, if for example Spain insisted on a "vaccine passport" for all visitors, would you stop going to Spain? If every other country insisted on one, would you cease going abroad?

I'll have a guess. Once the 'passport' is rolled out for covid, there will be another hurdle to get over to 'maintain' your passport - perhaps annual flu jab, perhaps a vaccine for the next/any massively lethal virus that kills less than 99% of the population. Perhaps some new, untested but very expensive vaccine that just happens to be made by one of the government minister's mates. Once you're in that game, you're trapped in it - no way out, just another compliance required... then another. There comes a point where you cannot comply your way back to freedom. The reason this concerns me is that, over the last year especially, I have seen nothing to give me any faith in the altruistic aims of the government - look at the manipulation of data, look at the PPE contracts. As George Carlin said "they don't give a fk about you... it's big club, and you ain't in it."

As for going abroad... yes, I'd stop going. I've had vaccinations to travel to Africa in the past, but I'd find it hard to be part of this crazy, insidious riptide of state control that has swept us along with it. We all have our principles based on our learned moralistic code - and mine stops when the state can potentially take control over our movement and choices within this supposedly-democratic and free country.

[MikeT66]

poo at Paul's said:

People worried about loss of freedoms etc with things like vaccine certificates etc, have a point that this is a new potential "loss of freedom" but the ship where you could go about your business doing pretty much what you wanted without anyone knowing sailed a heck of a long time ago.
Most don't realise it, they have grown up knowing nothing else, but along with the technology that we have all jumped on to make our lives "better", we have last all "privacy" that some of us enjoyed before such tech came along.

So yes, vaccine status, testing etc, is an escalation of that, but a loss of a freedom? Not really, that ship sailed 20 years back IMO!

Yes - but it's my choice to use a phone/car/internet. It doesn't actually stop me engaging in society, though, which any potential national ID/passport could. Technology, like most tools, can be used for good or bad. In itself, it is inert. It is in the hands of the user that things change. I'm a neanderthal - I dislike intrusive tech (iPhones/Siri stuff) for the very reason of missing out on life due to them.

I've posted this before, but worth a watch - if you think the continuing intrusion of tech into our lives is a good and necessary thing, we need to be mindful of the people that control that tech also getting into our lives and their reasons for doing so...

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That was close - I still use a Nokia 1110, so am OK for time being.

[MikeT66]

I'm pretty sure there were a few posters on various forums saying the vaccine passports would never happen and anyone warning of the danger was a tinfoil-hatted nutter. I wonder where they are all now.

If people cannot see beyond the outright conflicting lies of "The vaccine isn't 100% effective, so don't visit family this weekend"/trialing vaccine passports (for something that isn't, er, 100% effective anyway) then we're lost as a society, as a democratic civilisation... and before anyone talks about 'polls', this unprecedented (yeah, I fking hate that word, too) assualt on our way of life has had less parliamentary scrutiny than fking Brexit.

If this is rolled out, we will become monetised victims to whatever government is in charge - products to be managed, controlled and profited from, as the goal-posts to retain that freedom pass will become an every-increasing drain on our individual wealth and liberty. Even those in support of a vaccine (and I'm not anti-vax) must see this for what it is - a state-controlled excursion into our every part of our private life.

I hope that snivelling stbag of a PM never has the gall to turn up at the Centotaph to (dis)honour the fallen, nor quote Churchill, ever again.

Edited by MikeT66 on Sunday 4th April 07:29

[MikeT66]

"Dates revealed for UK's first 'vaccine passport' events - and 'traffic light' system for holidays."
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/dates-r...

Mr Gove adds: "The Israeli approach involves a smartphone app and the NHS app could serve a similar purpose here."

The Israeli approach? Yes, that's a common-sense, non-invasory attack on civil liberty, then. What a wker.

[MikeT66]

dmahon said:

Not in a million years will our government be able to deliver this technology in a reasonable timeframe.

That's a good point. I wonder, also, how fked up this system will be - how many genuine 'vaccine passports' will get cancelled due to computer/IT/input/phone disfunction/hacking errors? This whole thing is fraught with so many potential issues from various angles it could be a car crash - the problem is that we will be unwilling passengers in the ensuing carnage.

[MikeT66]

Colonel Cupcake said:

p1stonhead said:

Colonel Cupcake said:

If just 1% of people refuse to take up the vaccine, thats 500,000 hungry, angry, 2nd class people.

If the 'passports' are needed to access Tescos, what proportion of those do you think would just starve? I, for one, would just take the food off those coming out of the supermarket or, if you are a powerfully built PH director type, I would just follow some elderly people home and take theirs instead. Maybe your parents.

If you’re hungry because you can’t eat in a pub you have bigger things to worry about.

Because of course they’re not going to be needed for food shopping.

Looks like you don't 'need' one for the pubs now, either.

Just pop concerts and sporting events.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9433971/C...

For now... I don't trust a thing the fker says anymore. After a year of being lied to, I've learned a lesson. As someone on here said, "watch what they do, not what they say."

[MikeT66]

Welshbeef said:

It’s only talk in the media - the govt hasn’t formally suggested anything yet.

We are pretty much going to be forced by other countries for a covid passport for international travel (though who knows it might only be some countries or all who knows).

It seems logical for areas where risk of spread is high (London Tube and commuting trains and buses seem obvious) maybe those need the surety. Whereas shops pubs etc Who knows and really it does need to be a wider conservation with the public. A bit like the public need to decide do we increase substantially NHS spending (or not) but that everyone then gets the tax rises to fund it.

I understand that some countries might want a covid passport scheme to allow entry - their country, their rules. I'd understand that we may not want to 'import' a problem, too, so might require the same for international travellers (though this doesn't include the rich, according to the government).

What I don't understand is the talk of needing one for hospitality, which was never seen to be a main vector in the spread anyway, so any positives in the scheme would be massively outweighed by the negatives. Same with constant testing - billions on testing healthy people, when that money is going to be urgently needed to assist with healthcare for other issues.

There is something about this that is beginning to stink almost of a class/age war. Baby boomers to be looked after at the cost of the freedoms of the young, and the poor (you know, those who have to travel to work/supermarket workers/delivery drivers, etc) targeted as the spreaders.

Now we have the elderly/vulnerable vaccinated, I see no reason for anykind of passport scheme, nor any reason we cannot return to a semblance of normality very quickly. Keep an eye on the numbers, sure, but that's all.

[MikeT66]

Covid passports: Certification is 'one option', vaccines minister says
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56645208

article said:

The government said certificates showing vaccination, test or immunity status could "provide reassurance".

Boris Johnson said they could help signal a person is not contagious.

Eh? I thought he said...

Boris warns against meeting indoors this Easter as jabs aren’t 100% effective
https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/02/boris-johnson-warns...

So... are they not 100% effective and therefore we still need the palaver of social distancing, masks, limited contact, etc, or do they "provide reassurance" (and who to?) and "signal a person is not contagious"?

Paraphrasing the old joke, it would take the fat contagious to explain the logic of that... if he ever could.



And in the US, things are going better...

Covid: US rules out federal vaccine passports
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-5665719...



Edited to add:

What happens with any potential tourists/visitors this year? Assuming (and let's hope it's not a foregone conclusion) this gets through Parliament, would foreign visitors also have to produce some kind of negative test (as they wouldn't have a 'passport' as such) before going for a drink/theatre show/football match? This would be chaotic... I hope.

Edited by MikeT66 on Wednesday 7th April 05:11

[MikeT66]

The latest (and superb) video from Russell Brand, on the subject of Vaccine/Health Passports. Once again articulating my fear of handing such power to government/big tech. Do we really trust these people to manage and use our most personal data altruistically?

[MikeT66]

sim72 said:

Tyre Smoke said:

Telegraph reporting that we will reach the point of herd immunity by Monday.

The interesting statement from that, was this ...

Prof Karl Friston, of UCL said this is unsurprising because "over 50 per cent of adults have been vaccinated, around 42 per cent of people have now been exposed to the virus and about 10 per cent have pre-existing immunity."

What does this 42% sentence mean?

Is it the assumption that, given the massive positive cases vs deaths on record, they are looking the number of 'recovered' people that now (in theory) have antibodies (ergo protected)?

[MikeT66]

TCX said:

Biker 1 said:

LeighW said:

This just sums up for me how messed up this whole situation is. I now find myself in total agreement with Russell Brand.

+1. Weird, isn't it?
I normally find him nauseating, unfunny, & a champagne socialist!

Used to be great on the radio2 sat night show he had till he got thrown off,went bit wobbly n all lovey dovey after that,same here didn't think he'd have anything worth listening to but his recent podcasts have been spot in imho

+1. I also disliked him when he first appeared on the 'celebrity' scene - could never understand what his talent was supposed to be. However, (and seriously) have a look at some of his other videos on Gates/farming, IT, lockdowns, etc. He's been just superb.

[MikeT66]

UK sport bodies back use of 'vaccine passports' to allow return of capacity crowds
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/56683611

I hope people vote with their wallets on this. The vaccine does not provide 100% safety (as we keep getting told), so why is everyone 'safe' crowded together with the passport? I know the vaccine will reduce risk, but with the masses of the vulnerable now vaccinated (and assuming symptomatic people will stay away, passport or not) surely we are at a point whereby the risk is now manageable and the need for passports is negated?

[MikeT66]

jameswills said:

purplepenguin said:

Mr Whippy said:

I'm only one person, but hopefully one of many.

I'll just boycott anything needing a vaccine ID.

This government have crossed a line, and now they've overstayed their welcome. Anything to get them out. I'd even go for a smiley tt like BLiar again for four years just to get rid of the fking muppet Boris!

+1

+1

Another here - you certainly won't be alone in making that decision. Though not sure about Bliar - could you imagine how he would have reacted to this?

[MikeT66]

SCEtoAUX said:

MikeT66 said:

jameswills said:

purplepenguin said:

Mr Whippy said:

I'm only one person, but hopefully one of many.

I'll just boycott anything needing a vaccine ID.

This government have crossed a line, and now they've overstayed their welcome. Anything to get them out. I'd even go for a smiley tt like BLiar again for four years just to get rid of the fking muppet Boris!

+1

+1

Another here - you certainly won't be alone in making that decision. Though not sure about Bliar - could you imagine how he would have reacted to this?

I simply cannot see how they can bring in a system whereby pubs and restaurants must check COVID status for every customer. If they do, I shan't be going to pubs and restaurants any more. If the scheme is voluntary then you'll basically have the fun venues full of people who refuse to get a vaccine/vaccine passport and the venues full of st-scared mask-worshippers.

This ^. All probably still social distancing from habit and interacting with no-one. Everyone else just getting on with life.

[MikeT66]

Well, I was hoping this thread would die a death. Sadly, looks like it's going to run on.

Coronavirus latest news: Test and Trace app will become your vaccine passport, minister confirms

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-...

This has all kinds of sinister undertones. There is another world rally against lockdowns/measures on the 15th May - I hope people will start waking up and join the throngs protesting against this massive infringement on liberty.