Vaccine/Health Passports
Discussion
InfoRetrieval said:
MikeT66 said:
Murph7355 said:
MikeT66 said:
Sorry - I know it's another 'Covid' thread, but the potential impact of this perhaps warrants some specific consideration, I think.
After months of the government saying they will not adopt this route, we now have Gove looking into the possibility. My main concerns are:
1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
2 - Scope creep. Once this is done and implemented, what next? Passport cancelled if next year's dose is not administered? Is it a back-door route into a Chinese-style 'social credit system'?
3 - It may start with a few theatres/cinemas, etc... but where will it end up? The first step into a segregated society? We've seen that before.
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.
It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
1) Who monitors things like NI numbers etc now?After months of the government saying they will not adopt this route, we now have Gove looking into the possibility. My main concerns are:
1 - Data security. Who looks after this and monitors it. Who has access?
2 - Scope creep. Once this is done and implemented, what next? Passport cancelled if next year's dose is not administered? Is it a back-door route into a Chinese-style 'social credit system'?
3 - It may start with a few theatres/cinemas, etc... but where will it end up? The first step into a segregated society? We've seen that before.
4 - Employment. No jab/no job? Already rumours and stories circulating, of course.
5 - The main one. What happens to personal choice regarding what is put into your own body once this is accepted? As per (1), will the 'passport' be denied unless you keep complying and accepting new regulations? We do not do this for any other disease/virus (incuding AIDS, etc), so why this.
It's just the part of a horrendous slippery slope to me. I'm not anti-vax, but am definitely pro-choice, especially with regard to medical procedures on my own body. IMHO an honest government would be pushing a Bill to actively stop businesses introducing this (if you've had the vaccine, why would you be so scared of someone who hasn't anyway?)... but I just don't see them doing that.
2) Social credits already exist. We have NI cards, few people choose to insist on seeing the physical one though.
3) I expect it to be most places ultimately. It seems logical to me. At least for a while.
4) As 3.
5) You have a choice. As others have noted before, not unlike a driving license. You don't have to have one. But if you don't some "freedoms" are denied you.
With "rights" come "responsibilities".
2) I'm on about the Chinese style social credit score. Given the lambasting that the government have received via Twitter/social media over the last year, I bet they'd love a bit of this. Say/write something critical? Deducted points, a la Black Mirror. We know how internet use links up via cookies, software, etc, and there's already the potential for the Track And Trace app to be modified, so where does this stop?
3) "At least for a while"? Come on... once it's forced into society, it is not getting withdrawn. The last year must have told you that, given the government's avoidance of parliamentary procedure and extensions of covid measures.
4) No jab/no job acceptable? Why? As a risk to work colleagues? As a former H&S Officer, I understand that risks must be measured, but I'd struggle to see why a medical procedure possibly against the individual's rights/beliefs is trumped by the working rights for another.
5) We're not talking about driving/getting a pilot's licence/scuba diving qualification. We are potentially talking about restriction of freedom of movement and access to services. I don't see it as the same thing at all.
They even have a picture of your face and your address! The b
ds!Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 24th February 10:25
Iminquarantine said:
That would be the way you would know it works, given the phenomenal amount of information available on the use and purpose of vaccines, to provide individual and public benefits. Are you saying you formed your opinion without this basic knowledge and which even my 10yo worked out for herself several months back?
Prove it. With causation. Go.DonRustone said:
Spoiler alert: This thread will go round in circles just like any other Covid/Vaccine/Winter Tyres/Auto vs Manual thread on PH; everyone has their opinion and very few of us are willing to reconsider, let alone change, our views.
Good luck to both sides
Correct!Good luck to both sides
My 2p worth: if the vaccine passport is optional, how many will embrace it?
Let's assume a 90% takeup, so 10% of the population are then excluded from any business that decides to implement it. I appreciate that this is fag packet/PH maths, but can any pub/restaurant survive with 10% less customers??
Iminquarantine said:
richardxjr said:
Why is it necessary at all? For the vast majority this is still the disease so deadly that you need a test to see if you have it.
More anti vaxxer fruitcakes. Are you sure you aren’t stuck in February 2020? Haven’t noticed anything since then?
Biker 1 said:
Correct!
My 2p worth: if the vaccine passport is optional, how many will embrace it?
Let's assume a 90% takeup, so 10% of the population are then excluded from any business that decides to implement it. I appreciate that this is fag packet/PH maths, but can any pub/restaurant survive with 10% less customers??
You may end up with a situation where venues which require it attract more of the customers who accept it or even actually go out of their way to endorse it. While the remainder end up full of people who don’t agree with it. A bit like a QAnon meet up!My 2p worth: if the vaccine passport is optional, how many will embrace it?
Let's assume a 90% takeup, so 10% of the population are then excluded from any business that decides to implement it. I appreciate that this is fag packet/PH maths, but can any pub/restaurant survive with 10% less customers??
Edited by Iminquarantine on Wednesday 24th February 10:36
Iminquarantine said:
You may end up with a situation where venues which require it attract more of the customers who accept it or even actually go out of their way to endorse it. Whine the remainder end up full of people who don’t agree with it. A bit like a QAnon meet up!
We could end up with the equivalent of leper colonies.............richardxjr said:
Iminquarantine said:
richardxjr said:
Why is it necessary at all? For the vast majority this is still the disease so deadly that you need a test to see if you have it.
More anti vaxxer fruitcakes. Are you sure you aren’t stuck in February 2020? Haven’t noticed anything since then?
I'm not anti vax you tard
But we are expected to believe you instead.
I don't agree with vaccine passports.
I'm not any vaccine; I and my kids have had all the usual vaccines. I have no agenda against the principle of vaccination.
I see vaccines as risk reward. Like any other medicine, I only take them when the potential benefit outweighs potential risk. Neither me, my wife nor kids are personally at risk from Covid. We also know Covid vaccines have been developed quickly and approved under expedited regimes.
The question I ask myself is, for us personally, is the potential benefit from the vaccine greater than the potential risk? For us, the answer is no.
We then look at the argument that us being vaccinated will be valuable for the protection of others, who are vulnerable. I don't agree that this potential societal benefit outweighs our personal risk. Why? Because those who are at risk can be vaccinated and mostly have been. In which case, whether or not I am vaccinated is irrelevant. Additionally, we know the current vaccines do not cut transmission entirely.
There is only a very weak case in support of me and my family unit being vaccinated.
On the above basis, I don't belive it is right and proper, or necessary, or logical, to require us to be vaccinated to do ordinary, everyday things, such as get and maintain a job, go to the theatre or a restaurant or go on holiday to another country that has had widescale vaccinations of the vulnerable. We would be being forced, with no moral or logical justification, to take a vaccine we don't need to protect other people who don't need protecting (because they have their own vaccine protection).
We mustn't lose sight of the fact this virus is very harmful to a very small number of people, much like many other illnesses, yet it isn't to the vast majority. It shouldn't be used to justify wholesale, negative changes to our way of life, once we have vaccinated those vulnerable.
I'm not any vaccine; I and my kids have had all the usual vaccines. I have no agenda against the principle of vaccination.
I see vaccines as risk reward. Like any other medicine, I only take them when the potential benefit outweighs potential risk. Neither me, my wife nor kids are personally at risk from Covid. We also know Covid vaccines have been developed quickly and approved under expedited regimes.
The question I ask myself is, for us personally, is the potential benefit from the vaccine greater than the potential risk? For us, the answer is no.
We then look at the argument that us being vaccinated will be valuable for the protection of others, who are vulnerable. I don't agree that this potential societal benefit outweighs our personal risk. Why? Because those who are at risk can be vaccinated and mostly have been. In which case, whether or not I am vaccinated is irrelevant. Additionally, we know the current vaccines do not cut transmission entirely.
There is only a very weak case in support of me and my family unit being vaccinated.
On the above basis, I don't belive it is right and proper, or necessary, or logical, to require us to be vaccinated to do ordinary, everyday things, such as get and maintain a job, go to the theatre or a restaurant or go on holiday to another country that has had widescale vaccinations of the vulnerable. We would be being forced, with no moral or logical justification, to take a vaccine we don't need to protect other people who don't need protecting (because they have their own vaccine protection).
We mustn't lose sight of the fact this virus is very harmful to a very small number of people, much like many other illnesses, yet it isn't to the vast majority. It shouldn't be used to justify wholesale, negative changes to our way of life, once we have vaccinated those vulnerable.
Iminquarantine said:
You may end up with a situation where venues which require it attract more of the customers who accept it or even actually go out of their way to endorse it.
Attracting customers? Hasn't worked that way with any other measure so far though has it? And any sort of extra friction is the enemy of getting customers through the door.Iminquarantine said:
richardxjr said:
Iminquarantine said:
richardxjr said:
Why is it necessary at all? For the vast majority this is still the disease so deadly that you need a test to see if you have it.
More anti vaxxer fruitcakes. Are you sure you aren’t stuck in February 2020? Haven’t noticed anything since then?
I'm not anti vax you tard
But we are expected to believe you instead.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sort of like the council going through your bins and using Tony Blair’s new anti terror laws as justification? Maybe but seems like you could just have an international vaccine database linked to your passport or some other ID and not have the rest of your medical records available?
The Spruce Goose said:
heard on the news, Boris said the public are calling out for them, so he will look into them now..
The Tory party always wanted them, along with all this spin and propaganda, it is actually so hard now to know what is real.
In less than a year the public have been so demoralised, and brainwashed over this that they're screaming out for a compulsary drug that has no long-term testing from a government who have used so much spin on the figures to manipulate them. The Tory party always wanted them, along with all this spin and propaganda, it is actually so hard now to know what is real.
Less than a year.
Very simply, by default, the state has no business telling me whether I can go into a private place or not. Or knowing whether I have, for that matter.
That position may be compromised, but only for very specific, very limited purposes, where it is proportional and necessary to do so.
Secondly, as a default, no-one has the right to see another person's health records.
Again, that default may be compromised, for very specific, limited purposes, where it is proportional and necessary to do so.
COVID does not pass the test for proportional and necessary, for general day-to-day activities, IMO.
That position may be compromised, but only for very specific, very limited purposes, where it is proportional and necessary to do so.
Secondly, as a default, no-one has the right to see another person's health records.
Again, that default may be compromised, for very specific, limited purposes, where it is proportional and necessary to do so.
COVID does not pass the test for proportional and necessary, for general day-to-day activities, IMO.
richardxjr said:
For the hard of thinking here, again, I am not anti vax, but I am anti stupid passport.
You are anti vax. If you weren’t anti vax, you would not have written “For the vast majority this is still the disease so deadly that you need a test to see if you have it.”All when we are in a pandemic with 130,000 dead, large excess mortality and the biggest disruption to normal life since WW2.
vixen1700 said:
In less than a year the public have been so demoralised, and brainwashed over this that they're screaming out for a compulsary drug that has no long-term testing from a government who have used so much spin on the figures to manipulate them.
Less than a year.
As I said earlier - this is my concern (or one of them! Less than a year.
). The last dangling carrot for a beaten down society. It will be tempting for a lot of people, I fear.
I can see Hancock in this role, too...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUnhfvGdmmw
vixen1700 said:
The Spruce Goose said:
heard on the news, Boris said the public are calling out for them, so he will look into them now..
The Tory party always wanted them, along with all this spin and propaganda, it is actually so hard now to know what is real.
In less than a year the public have been so demoralised, and brainwashed over this that they're screaming out for a compulsary drug that has no long-term testing from a government who have used so much spin on the figures to manipulate them. The Tory party always wanted them, along with all this spin and propaganda, it is actually so hard now to know what is real.
Less than a year.
Shows how easy it is to get people to agree with things which are seen to be for the collective good.
Obviously the issues come when are against collectivism or you disagree what is actually for the collective good and then whether that should be imposed either with laws or by your life being a bit s
t if you don’t go along with it. Personally I’ve got no issue with covid passports at all. I can see though if you’re against them then all these recent developments and talk about considering them must be pretty shocking.
Iminquarantine said:
You are anti vax. If you weren’t anti vax, you would not have written “For the vast majority this is still the disease so deadly that you need a test to see if you have it.”
All when we are in a pandemic with 130,000 dead, large excess mortality and the biggest disruption to normal life since WW2.
And yet not a HCID. Why not? All when we are in a pandemic with 130,000 dead, large excess mortality and the biggest disruption to normal life since WW2.
El stovey said:
Shows how easy it is to get people to agree with things which are seen to be for the collective good.
I don't agree they are thinking about the collective good. I think many are concerned for themselves. Firstly for their own safety, because they have been programmed to believe the virus is more deadly than it is, and secondly they wish to exit lockdown and have been erroneously led to believe mass non-compliance with restrictions (and by extension failure to vaccinate) will prevent that. The individuals in government have used the same negative tactics they used in previous campaigns with Covid and we are in a mess because of it.
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