Vaccine/Health Passports

[Nickgnome]

RizzoTheRat said:

Nickgnome said:

Shnozz said:

Nickgnome said:

I've already used it once to obviate the need for self isolation and will again this week.

Complete no brainer, just getting on with life.

Where from/how out of interest? Didn't think they were in effect in any way as yet (no real skin in this argument but this post interested me).

Arrival into Estonia where they took my vaccine record showing both injections as confirmation of 'immunity' and allowed me not to self isolate. Quite a straightforward operation at the airport.

Estonia and generally leagues ahead of everyone else when it comes to national It infrastructure and data management.

Looks like several countries have now gone live with the passport system
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/7-countries-...

They are and it was a complete revelation when I first went there. However some here would suffer instant exploding head syndrome at the thought of carrying an I.D card.

[Shnozz]

Nickgnome said:

They are and it was a complete revelation when I first went there. However some here would suffer instant exploding head syndrome at the thought of carrying an I.D card.

Fits in with their amazing internet speeds and tech too.

[Nickgnome]

Shnozz said:

Nickgnome said:

They are and it was a complete revelation when I first went there. However some here would suffer instant exploding head syndrome at the thought of carrying an I.D card.

Fits in with their amazing internet speeds and tech too.

When they were released from the USSR those Baltic states grabbed their freedom and were incredibly forward looking. They do have the benefit of being relatively small.

They locked down the borders of the country completely at the beginning of last year and thereby had very low infection. I lived there most of last year. Their track and trace app seemed to work well.

Inevitably when they opened up infections took off and they adopted very similar methods to the UK. Retail shut, mask wearing etc.

Because of general compliance their lockdowns have been much shorter than the UK and everything is pretty well open again now.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It has been imposed upon me but I have not played along in the sense of actually believing any of this crap, and it is something I resent.

My point is it would be quite possible for the believers to carry on all this stuff without demanding the government impose it on everyone else.

[markcoznottz]

Electro1980 said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Nickgnome said:

Having been born in the 50s and seeing first hand what my parents and grandparents went through including serving, for an event which dwarfs this your lecture is pathetic. I've been bankrupt and it is not nice but fortunately pre-internet so could not wallow in mutual hysteria and self pity. I have a business now which may still fail.

This pandemic will be less than 2% of your life timescale.

It is now about 50% of my youngest daughter's life and the things we did with the others like swimming, birthday parties and going to the zoo have all been difficult or impossible for most of it. Even the park near us was closed for a while. And we're lucky to have a garden, nice countryside and beaches near by and a small group of sane friends who have braved the terrible risks to let the kids play. Amazingly we all survived. A lot of her peers have probably spent the last 15 months in front of the TV, cooped up in a flat.

If it was because of an all out war against a fascist dictator bent on taking over the world it would be an unfortunate necessity but when it's a bunch of weirdos whipping up hysteria by peddling bullst it is not. It is destructive and evil which will be causing damage for decades to come.

Total U.K. deaths in WW2 - 450k
Total U.K. Civilian deaths WW2 - 40k
Total U.K. Covid deaths so far - 128k

Covid is very much in the same ballpark as WW2.

How many Covid deaths are false positive pcr tests. How many people were pressured into accepting a cause of death as Covid on thier parents death cert?

[gumshoe]

Electro1980 said:

Total U.K. deaths in WW2 - 450k
Total U.K. Civilian deaths WW2 - 40k
Total U.K. Covid deaths so far - 128k

Covid is very much in the same ballpark as WW2.

128k is not even remotely accurate. It's closer to 65-70k. Unless you believe we were, for unexplainable reasons, due a deficit in deaths to the order of 60k in the covid era (2020-2021). In any year in the past decade there has not been a deficit of 60k odd deaths. Quite clearly the covid deaths have been overstated as a result of the surveillance method.

[Boringvolvodriver]

I am still slightly bemused that many people appear to be OK with some form of digital system for vaccine status to be used domestically - international travel I understand.

In this digital age, do you not think that once the government have found that it works, that they may start putting more and more data into it and thus be able to monitor people a lot closer than they do?

I do not have an issue with showing ID when requested for a legitimate purpose, however, I do have an issue when potentially all and sundry may demand to have access to personal information, including medical information.

Mission creep would, IMO, occur a d before you know it, you ate having to show your digital ID pass to buy say, alcohol.

[98elise]

Boringvolvodriver said:

I am still slightly bemused that many people appear to be OK with some form of digital system for vaccine status to be used domestically - international travel I understand.

In this digital age, do you not think that once the government have found that it works, that they may start putting more and more data into it and thus be able to monitor people a lot closer than they do?

I do not have an issue with showing ID when requested for a legitimate purpose, however, I do have an issue when potentially all and sundry may demand to have access to personal information, including medical information.

Mission creep would, IMO, occur a d before you know it, you ate having to show your digital ID pass to buy say, alcohol.

It's your medical history. Everything else is already there from medical perspective. Nothing has changed and nor has who has access to your records.

Everything you do when you interact with companies or the government is recorded in a database.

What additional data do you fear will be collected? Did you have concerns when any other government services went digital?

If you use a mobile phone then you're already being tracked wherever you go.

[98elise]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It has been imposed upon me but I have not played along in the sense of actually believing any of this crap, and it is something I resent.

My point is it would be quite possible for the believers to carry on all this stuff without demanding the government impose it on everyone else.

It must anoy the hell out of you that the the majority of doctors and scientists are "believers". If only they would stick to facts/research/evidence.

[Boringvolvodriver]

98elise said:

It's your medical history. Everything else is already there from medical perspective. Nothing has changed and nor has who has access to your records.

Everything you do when you interact with companies or the government is recorded in a database.

What additional data do you fear will be collected? Did you have concerns when any other government services went digital?

If you use a mobile phone then you're already being tracked wherever you go.

I am not concerned per se about the collection of the data although I do have concerns about it getting into the wrong hands as clearly some GP s do based on the new system

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/30/gp...

I also have concerns about who may use the data and for what purposes in the longer term. Once a system is in place, then quite easy to change it and enforce its use.

On the mobile phone issue, do you know how easy or hard it is, at the moment, for the police to get the information from Apple or Google? I accept that Google may know where I am, I don’t want the government to know where I am or what I am doing. A government digital ID system, would, I suspect make that possible.

[Ahonen]

MX5Biologist said:

Ziplobb said:

Electro1980 said:

Total U.K. deaths in WW2 - 450k
Total U.K. Civilian deaths WW2 - 40k
Total U.K. Covid deaths so far - 128k

Covid is very much in the same ballpark as WW2.

My old man was born in Manchester in 1939 and grew up in the war. The house next door took a german bomb and was flattened with the neighbours in it. He is 82 but still has his marbles and would be happy to spend an hour educating you (something you seem to have been denied) about the war v. covid. PM me if you want to take the offer up.

Its certainly in the ballpark for Spanish Flu if one was looking for historic analogies. I dare say COVID-19 will still be remembered in 100 years time.

Spanish flu claimed at least 228,000 people in the UK over a 12 month period, though the population was smaller then (~40 million). No modern medicine then. Intensive Care didn't exist (took Polio epidemics to invent that).

It was around 20 million in 1919, which makes the 228,000 even more significant compared to the 'rona. Unless you meant that it was 40 million fewer than today, in which case I apologise.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

98elise said:

It must anoy the hell out of you that the the majority of doctors and scientists are "believers". If only they would stick to facts/research/evidence.

It doesn't. If it's true.

[98elise]

Boringvolvodriver said:

98elise said:

It's your medical history. Everything else is already there from medical perspective. Nothing has changed and nor has who has access to your records.

Everything you do when you interact with companies or the government is recorded in a database.

What additional data do you fear will be collected? Did you have concerns when any other government services went digital?

If you use a mobile phone then you're already being tracked wherever you go.

I am not concerned per se about the collection of the data although I do have concerns about it getting into the wrong hands as clearly some GP s do based on the new system

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/30/gp...

I also have concerns about who may use the data and for what purposes in the longer term. Once a system is in place, then quite easy to change it and enforce its use.

On the mobile phone issue, do you know how easy or hard it is, at the moment, for the police to get the information from Apple or Google? I accept that Google may know where I am, I don’t want the government to know where I am or what I am doing. A government digital ID system, would, I suspect make that possible.

The point is it was already in place. It's your NHS record, not something new for Covid, and Covid hasn't changed anything.

I have hypertension and am on medication for it. It's right there in the NHS app along side my Covid vaccination, and any other treatments I've had.

The Government don't need to go through Google or Apple. You can be tracked through your phone provider, a service that's licenced by the government.

Edited by 98elise on Thursday 3rd June 19:21

[anonymous-user]

98elise said:

Boringvolvodriver said:

98elise said:

It's your medical history. Everything else is already there from medical perspective. Nothing has changed and nor has who has access to your records.

Everything you do when you interact with companies or the government is recorded in a database.

What additional data do you fear will be collected? Did you have concerns when any other government services went digital?

If you use a mobile phone then you're already being tracked wherever you go.

I am not concerned per se about the collection of the data although I do have concerns about it getting into the wrong hands as clearly some GP s do based on the new system

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/30/gp...

I also have concerns about who may use the data and for what purposes in the longer term. Once a system is in place, then quite easy to change it and enforce its use.

On the mobile phone issue, do you know how easy or hard it is, at the moment, for the police to get the information from Apple or Google? I accept that Google may know where I am, I don’t want the government to know where I am or what I am doing. A government digital ID system, would, I suspect make that possible.

The point is it was already in place. It's your NHS record, not something new for Covid, and Covid hasn't changed anything.

I have hypertension and am on medication for it. It's right there in the NHS app along side my Covid vaccination, and any other treatments I've had.

The Government don't need to go through Google or Apple. You can be tracked through your phone provider, a service that's licenced by the government.

Edited by 98elise on Thursday 3rd June 19:21

Had my second jab yesterday evening. Today my 'passport' (the NHS app) has been updated to show details of both (date, type, batch number) and a QR code. Quite impressively joined up! According to the loons I'll now be helping build gas chambers etc. (at the loons, not the history of gas chambers).

[Boringvolvodriver]

98elise said:

The point is it was already in place. It's your NHS record, not something new for Covid, and Covid hasn't changed anything.

I have hypertension and am on medication for it. It's right there in the NHS app along side my Covid vaccination, and any other treatments I've had.

The Government don't need to go through Google or Apple. You can be tracked through your phone provider, a service that's licenced by the government.

Edited by 98elise on Thursday 3rd June 19:21

But you don’t have to show those records to anyone or to do anything yet do you? Which may or may not come to pass with some form of digital ID. That is mine and many others issue.

And as for Google and Apple - AFAIK the government has no access to that information at the moment and the police have to jump through hoops to get to it.

[voyds9]

Boringvolvodriver said:

But you don’t have to show those records to anyone or to do anything yet do you? Which may or may not come to pass with some form of digital ID. That is mine and many others issue.

And as for Google and Apple - AFAIK the government has no access to that information at the moment and the police have to jump through hoops to get to it.

That's the salami argument. Just a little bit at a time and before long you've been stuffed with the whole sausage

[GMT13]

What I find interesting is that, although you can see the number of deaths caused by the vaccines on the government website (1253 dead as of 28th May), they don't offer a breakdown by age.

Interesting because you can see from the NHS covid stats that only 90 'healthy' (i.e no pre existing conditions) under 40's have died in England since the whole thing began.

Therefore I think there is a fair chance the vaccine has already proven to be more deadly than the disease for under 40's (there being a fair chance that more than 90 of the 1253 vaccine deaths so far were in under 40's).

Presumably this is justified by the prospect of more older people being saved with everybody being vaccinated than younger lives are sacrificed, but it'd be nice to have been told about this decision making.

You can't blame any under 40 not getting the jab, a vaccine passport might be needed to coerce them to have it if more people were aware of these figures.

Vaccine deaths - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronav...

NHS England Covid deaths by age/condition - https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/u...

[Flooble]

The people saying you are already tracked seem to ignore that lots of us don’t feel bonded to our phone and hence don’t carry it everywhere. Introduce digital ID that is demanded for entry to anywhere and it becomes a requirement to always ha e your phone and hence to always be tracked.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

GMT13 said:

What I find interesting is that, although you can see the number of deaths caused by the vaccines on the government website (1253 dead as of 28th May), they don't offer a breakdown by age.

Interesting because you can see from the NHS covid stats that only 90 'healthy' (i.e no pre existing conditions) under 40's have died in England since the whole thing began.

Therefore I think there is a fair chance the vaccine has already proven to be more deadly than the disease for under 40's (there being a fair chance that more than 90 of the 1253 vaccine deaths so far were in under 40's).

Presumably this is justified by the prospect of more older people being saved with everybody being vaccinated than younger lives are sacrificed, but it'd be nice to have been told about this decision making.

You can't blame any under 40 not getting the jab, a vaccine passport might be needed to coerce them to have it if more people were aware of these figures.

Vaccine deaths - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronav...

NHS England Covid deaths by age/condition - https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/u...

There is a breakdown of deaths from thrombo-embolic events by age which seems to suggest they hit 50s and 60s harder than older groups, though not clear how much that is down to doses administered by each age group.



And by sex


As a layman who is often told I should trust the experts, this appears worryingly close to what unpopular expert Mike Yeadon noted early on, that otherwise healthy middle aged women are most at immediate risk from the vaccine.

[Vanden Saab]

Nickgnome said:

Shnozz said:

Nickgnome said:

They are and it was a complete revelation when I first went there. However some here would suffer instant exploding head syndrome at the thought of carrying an I.D card.

Fits in with their amazing internet speeds and tech too.

When they were released from the USSR those Baltic states grabbed their freedom and were incredibly forward looking. They do have the benefit of being relatively small.

They locked down the borders of the country completely at the beginning of last year and thereby had very low infection. I lived there most of last year. Their track and trace app seemed to work well.

Inevitably when they opened up infections took off and they adopted very similar methods to the UK. Retail shut, mask wearing etc.

Because of general compliance their lockdowns have been much shorter than the UK and everything is pretty well open again now.

And yet they have had 50% more cases per 100,000 of population and have only done just over a third of the tests the UK has done...according to Worldometer. No.16 in the world for infections...In a country which is 1/5th of the size of the uk but with only 1/66th of the population I am not sure that is anything to be proud of...