Who is going to continue to wear a mask after 21st June?
Discussion
andyeds1234 said:
FFS. You do realise I’m being obtuse, to make a parallel between civic wellbeing, and personal inconvenience?
I’m clearly giving too much benefit of the doubt, when it comes to assuming the reasoning powers of some posters...
I think what you meant to say was "deliberately obtuse" - although I suspect that the wording you used is more representative of your behaviour.I’m clearly giving too much benefit of the doubt, when it comes to assuming the reasoning powers of some posters...
What you, and most of the other mask zealots, fail to consider is that masks change people's behaviour.
Personally, I would much prefer that the great unwashed maintained a distance of more than 2 metres from me and didn't wear a mask, rather than wore a mask and acted as if that gave them carte blanche to stick their face 6 inches from mine.
Harrison Bergeron said:
21TonyK said:
Personally I go with Professor Sir Mark Walports comments on Radio 4 some time back.
He suggested "those not following guidance did not have the mental capacity to do so".
Very clever and galaxy brained of you.He suggested "those not following guidance did not have the mental capacity to do so".
Having done my own research and spent months considering my position I happen to agree with one of the leading clinical authorities in the country and former Government Chief Scientific Adviser.
But hey, your clever, I had to google "galaxy brained"... kids these days
21TonyK said:
Harrison Bergeron said:
21TonyK said:
Personally I go with Professor Sir Mark Walports comments on Radio 4 some time back.
He suggested "those not following guidance did not have the mental capacity to do so".
Very clever and galaxy brained of you.He suggested "those not following guidance did not have the mental capacity to do so".
Having done my own research and spent months considering my position I happen to agree with one of the leading clinical authorities in the country and former Government Chief Scientific Adviser.
But hey, your clever, I had to google "galaxy brained"... kids these days
Did you wear a mask from when the first case was announced in the UK, or did you wait to be told what to do? Will you continue to wear one until your dying day to prevent any further respiratory infection, or will you drop them when everyone else does?
21TonyK said:
dave_s13 said:
yellowjack said:
klan8456 said:
I’d love to know where all these loonies come from. Certainly not in my professional or social circles.
I suspect there’s a positive correlation between IQ and mask wearing compliance.
I don't think you can claim a connection between higher IQ individuals and not wearing a mask. Not without first doing a more scientific study...I suspect there’s a positive correlation between IQ and mask wearing compliance.
It's probably easier to be entirely ignorant to be honest. What you don't know can't get you worked up I suppose.
He suggested "those not following guidance did not have the mental capacity to do so".
What perplexes me is the level of compliance from everyone wearing one. Despite nearly every other law being ignored by at least a few people depending on the severity of the law 99.9% seem to have stuck to wearing a mask no questions asked.
I was in the queue for Greggs this morning and there were about 15 people in front of me in the queue, everyone of them had a mask on apart from me and my mate. It looked like a collection of lorry drivers and manual workers judging by the various hi-viz jackets. I'd bet my house that every one of them has broken one or more law that day, maybe broke the speed limit or done a bit of texting whilst driving, threw a bit of rubbish on the floor, maybe done a cash job, even a bit of drink driving every now and then dare I say,the list could be endless.
So why is the compliance so high, it cant be because they are scarred of getting caught otherwise they wouldn't text and drive, thats a £300 fine I think and 6 points and a b
king from a copper as well. It can't be because they think they are saving lives either because how can someone in the right mind think that there is less chance of killing someone texting whilst driving than there is by not wearing a mask?
The only thing left must be they are virtue signalling, I can't think of anything else. Surely they must be able to look at the statistics and come to the conclusion that either killing someone or dying yourself from lack of mask use is so miniscule its hardly even worth giving it a second thought.
I was in the queue for Greggs this morning and there were about 15 people in front of me in the queue, everyone of them had a mask on apart from me and my mate. It looked like a collection of lorry drivers and manual workers judging by the various hi-viz jackets. I'd bet my house that every one of them has broken one or more law that day, maybe broke the speed limit or done a bit of texting whilst driving, threw a bit of rubbish on the floor, maybe done a cash job, even a bit of drink driving every now and then dare I say,the list could be endless.
So why is the compliance so high, it cant be because they are scarred of getting caught otherwise they wouldn't text and drive, thats a £300 fine I think and 6 points and a b
king from a copper as well. It can't be because they think they are saving lives either because how can someone in the right mind think that there is less chance of killing someone texting whilst driving than there is by not wearing a mask?The only thing left must be they are virtue signalling, I can't think of anything else. Surely they must be able to look at the statistics and come to the conclusion that either killing someone or dying yourself from lack of mask use is so miniscule its hardly even worth giving it a second thought.
scottyp123 said:
What perplexes me is the level of compliance from everyone wearing one. Despite nearly every other law being ignored by at least a few people depending on the severity of the law 99.9% seem to have stuck to wearing a mask no questions asked.
I was in the queue for Greggs this morning and there were about 15 people in front of me in the queue, everyone of them had a mask on apart from me and my mate. It looked like a collection of lorry drivers and manual workers judging by the various hi-viz jackets. I'd bet my house that every one of them has broken one or more law that day, maybe broke the speed limit or done a bit of texting whilst driving, threw a bit of rubbish on the floor, maybe done a cash job, even a bit of drink driving every now and then dare I say,the list could be endless.
So why is the compliance so high, it cant be because they are scarred of getting caught otherwise they wouldn't text and drive, thats a £300 fine I think and 6 points and a bking from a copper as well. It can't be because they think they are saving lives either because how can someone in the right mind think that there is less chance of killing someone texting whilst driving than there is by not wearing a mask?
The only thing left must be they are virtue signalling, I can't think of anything else. Surely they must be able to look at the statistics and come to the conclusion that either killing someone or dying yourself from lack of mask use is so miniscule its hardly even worth giving it a second thought.
The simple explanation is herd mentality and groupthink. I was in the queue for Greggs this morning and there were about 15 people in front of me in the queue, everyone of them had a mask on apart from me and my mate. It looked like a collection of lorry drivers and manual workers judging by the various hi-viz jackets. I'd bet my house that every one of them has broken one or more law that day, maybe broke the speed limit or done a bit of texting whilst driving, threw a bit of rubbish on the floor, maybe done a cash job, even a bit of drink driving every now and then dare I say,the list could be endless.
So why is the compliance so high, it cant be because they are scarred of getting caught otherwise they wouldn't text and drive, thats a £300 fine I think and 6 points and a b
king from a copper as well. It can't be because they think they are saving lives either because how can someone in the right mind think that there is less chance of killing someone texting whilst driving than there is by not wearing a mask?The only thing left must be they are virtue signalling, I can't think of anything else. Surely they must be able to look at the statistics and come to the conclusion that either killing someone or dying yourself from lack of mask use is so miniscule its hardly even worth giving it a second thought.
Colonel Cupcake said:
21TonyK said:
Harrison Bergeron said:
21TonyK said:
Personally I go with Professor Sir Mark Walports comments on Radio 4 some time back.
He suggested "those not following guidance did not have the mental capacity to do so".
Very clever and galaxy brained of you.He suggested "those not following guidance did not have the mental capacity to do so".
Having done my own research and spent months considering my position I happen to agree with one of the leading clinical authorities in the country and former Government Chief Scientific Adviser.
But hey, your clever, I had to google "galaxy brained"... kids these days
Did you wear a mask from when the first case was announced in the UK, or did you wait to be told what to do? Will you continue to wear one until your dying day to prevent any further respiratory infection, or will you drop them when everyone else does?
ISTR masks were mandated in shops around July last year? Prior to that I was supposed to be shielding but didn't because I considered I was able to reduce the risk to me and others by minimising the amount of time I spent in public places and Mrs21 did the shopping, she worked from home and I only went in to work when I had too and I either lone worked or maintained social distancing. After a near-miss due to an underlying respiratory condition at the end of the summer I was told not to mess about and shield properly which I have done since.
However, I can't remain couped up at home 24/7 for ever and as soon as case levels dropped off to the point where I was comfortable I go out when I need to. Again not to busy shops, I choose locations and times to avoid crowds to reduce my risk and I shove a mask on as necessary because my condition causes me to cough occasionally and if I didnt wear it and was coughing it would worry others.
I could of course claim exemption, after all struggling to walk 200m because I cant breath properly would count but walking from my car to the counter at Screwfix or the wine aisle is a supermarket is no hardship with a mask on.
The moment were told "masks off" mine will be off IF I'm not coughing all the time.
scottyp123 said:
What perplexes me is the level of compliance from everyone wearing one. Despite nearly every other law being ignored by at least a few people depending on the severity of the law 99.9% seem to have stuck to wearing a mask no questions asked.
I was in the queue for Greggs this morning and there were about 15 people in front of me in the queue, everyone of them had a mask on apart from me and my mate. It looked like a collection of lorry drivers and manual workers judging by the various hi-viz jackets. I'd bet my house that every one of them has broken one or more law that day, maybe broke the speed limit or done a bit of texting whilst driving, threw a bit of rubbish on the floor, maybe done a cash job, even a bit of drink driving every now and then dare I say,the list could be endless.
So why is the compliance so high, it cant be because they are scarred of getting caught otherwise they wouldn't text and drive, thats a £300 fine I think and 6 points and a bking from a copper as well. It can't be because they think they are saving lives either because how can someone in the right mind think that there is less chance of killing someone texting whilst driving than there is by not wearing a mask?
The only thing left must be they are virtue signalling, I can't think of anything else. Surely they must be able to look at the statistics and come to the conclusion that either killing someone or dying yourself from lack of mask use is so miniscule its hardly even worth giving it a second thought.
It's an interesting one. I think that most people just don't see mask wearing as a big issue, so do it to follow the path of least resistance.I was in the queue for Greggs this morning and there were about 15 people in front of me in the queue, everyone of them had a mask on apart from me and my mate. It looked like a collection of lorry drivers and manual workers judging by the various hi-viz jackets. I'd bet my house that every one of them has broken one or more law that day, maybe broke the speed limit or done a bit of texting whilst driving, threw a bit of rubbish on the floor, maybe done a cash job, even a bit of drink driving every now and then dare I say,the list could be endless.
So why is the compliance so high, it cant be because they are scarred of getting caught otherwise they wouldn't text and drive, thats a £300 fine I think and 6 points and a b
king from a copper as well. It can't be because they think they are saving lives either because how can someone in the right mind think that there is less chance of killing someone texting whilst driving than there is by not wearing a mask?The only thing left must be they are virtue signalling, I can't think of anything else. Surely they must be able to look at the statistics and come to the conclusion that either killing someone or dying yourself from lack of mask use is so miniscule its hardly even worth giving it a second thought.
I do think that there is a fear of getting caught though, not necessarily caught by police and fined, just a fear of getting a telling off by the shop assistant and being a bit embarrassed. That's enough for a lot of people.
Different people feel very differently about different 'crimes' as well. In my case, I just couldn't physically bring myself to drop a piece of litter, but I'm often happy to break the speed limit on an NSL road if I feel it is safe to do so. The latter is obviously a more 'serious' crime and is the only one of the two that could result in me injuring or killing someone if I get it wrong.
Edited by kingston12 on Friday 12th March 17:14
omniflow said:
andyeds1234 said:
FFS. You do realise I’m being obtuse, to make a parallel between civic wellbeing, and personal inconvenience?
I’m clearly giving too much benefit of the doubt, when it comes to assuming the reasoning powers of some posters...
I think what you meant to say was "deliberately obtuse" - although I suspect that the wording you used is more representative of your behaviour.I’m clearly giving too much benefit of the doubt, when it comes to assuming the reasoning powers of some posters...
What you, and most of the other mask zealots, fail to consider is that masks change people's behaviour.
Personally, I would much prefer that the great unwashed maintained a distance of more than 2 metres from me and didn't wear a mask, rather than wore a mask and acted as if that gave them carte blanche to stick their face 6 inches from mine.
Me: advise mask use where appropriate, provide evidence of mask effectiveness when asked, explain my mask use is limited to indoors when in close proximity to strangers= zealot
Masks change people’s behaviour... yes they do indeed. In most instances the mask reminds people to act differently than when there isn’t a global pandemic.
If strangers are desperate to stick their faces 6 inches from yours, you must be pretty. Throw a mask on yourself, and you will stop your beautiful face from being a magnet to the great unwashed!
Phew... I feel I’ve really helped out there. Pat on the back for me.
Colonel Cupcake said:
People who follow blindly follow guidance, rather than ask pertinent questions are usually the same people who get stuck under low bridges or on narrow roads or in deep water, coz the sat-nav sez.
Yeah, hurrah to the great truth seakers!!!Truth Seaker: Show me proof that masks are effective in mitigating spread of disease.
Blind Guidance Follower: Ok, here are many links from peer reviewed bodies, and if you look yourself, you will find hundreds more.
Truth Seaker: La la la.... sheeple, government control, my welding diploma gives me the insight of an Epidemiologist!
andyeds1234 said:
Well I wasn’t being obtuse by accident you Dufus
Me: advise mask use where appropriate, provide evidence of mask effectiveness when asked, explain my mask use is limited to indoors when in close proximity to strangers= zealot
Masks change people’s behaviour... yes they do indeed. In most instances the mask reminds people to act differently than when there isn’t a global pandemic.
If strangers are desperate to stick their faces 6 inches from yours, you must be pretty. Throw a mask on yourself, and you will stop your beautiful face from being a magnet to the great unwashed!
Phew... I feel I’ve really helped out there. Pat on the back for me.
Ah.... You're one of THOSE posters - blatantly interprets everything in a way that matches his view and claims it a victory. Me: advise mask use where appropriate, provide evidence of mask effectiveness when asked, explain my mask use is limited to indoors when in close proximity to strangers= zealot
Masks change people’s behaviour... yes they do indeed. In most instances the mask reminds people to act differently than when there isn’t a global pandemic.
If strangers are desperate to stick their faces 6 inches from yours, you must be pretty. Throw a mask on yourself, and you will stop your beautiful face from being a magnet to the great unwashed!
Phew... I feel I’ve really helped out there. Pat on the back for me.
Firstly - you could have been being obtuse by dint of it being an innate characteristic of yours - i.e. you're stupid and you were just confessing as much. It's more than possible.
Secondly - people getting close when wearing a mask is something I see clearly and regularly when in the supermarket. The change in behaviour was extremely noticable. Before mask wearing was a thing, people would be very careful to keep their distance from everyone else - not just from me. Once masks came along, that behaviour went out of the window, and people now will happily get close to other people - generally reaching across them to get something from the shelf. I have observed both the before and after behaviour in several different supermarkets.
Thirdly - your "evidence" of mask effectiveness was a tad wishy-washy and wouldn't stand up to scrutiny by a 6th Form science student.
Fourthly - Dufus is actually spelt Doofus
andyeds1234 said:
Colonel Cupcake said:
People who follow blindly follow guidance, rather than ask pertinent questions are usually the same people who get stuck under low bridges or on narrow roads or in deep water, coz the sat-nav sez.
Yeah, hurrah to the great truth seakers!!!Truth Seaker: Show me proof that masks are effective in mitigating spread of disease.
Blind Guidance Follower: Ok, here are many links from peer reviewed bodies, and if you look yourself, you will find hundreds more.
Truth Seaker: La la la.... sheeple, government control, my welding diploma gives me the insight of an Epidemiologist!
There is not a single slam-dunk piece of evidence that prove masks work, and that is after hundreds of studies, as you yourself claim.
omniflow said:
Ah.... You're one of THOSE posters - blatantly interprets everything in a way that matches his view and claims it a victory.
Firstly - you could have been being obtuse by dint of it being an innate characteristic of yours - i.e. you're stupid and you were just confessing as much. It's more than possible.
Secondly - people getting close when wearing a mask is something I see clearly and regularly when in the supermarket. The change in behaviour was extremely noticable. Before mask wearing was a thing, people would be very careful to keep their distance from everyone else - not just from me. Once masks came along, that behaviour went out of the window, and people now will happily get close to other people - generally reaching across them to get something from the shelf. I have observed both the before and after behaviour in several different supermarkets.
Thirdly - your "evidence" of mask effectiveness was a tad wishy-washy and wouldn't stand up to scrutiny by a 6th Form science student.
Fourthly - Dufus is actually spelt Doofus
Ahh, you’re one of those posters, the type that thinks every discussion requires a victory. Noted.Firstly - you could have been being obtuse by dint of it being an innate characteristic of yours - i.e. you're stupid and you were just confessing as much. It's more than possible.
Secondly - people getting close when wearing a mask is something I see clearly and regularly when in the supermarket. The change in behaviour was extremely noticable. Before mask wearing was a thing, people would be very careful to keep their distance from everyone else - not just from me. Once masks came along, that behaviour went out of the window, and people now will happily get close to other people - generally reaching across them to get something from the shelf. I have observed both the before and after behaviour in several different supermarkets.
Thirdly - your "evidence" of mask effectiveness was a tad wishy-washy and wouldn't stand up to scrutiny by a 6th Form science student.
Fourthly - Dufus is actually spelt Doofus
The evidence isn’t wishy washy, it’s pretty specific on what masks can and can’t do. That’s difficult to understand when you read only the first few lines of multi page study, but hey, that would take time and effort.
It’s Dufus or doofus.... dufus.
Colonel Cupcake said:
But, as I stated earlier, your links showed weak evidence, at best, and a significant percentage of those peers that did review the studies found them wanting.
There is not a single slam-dunk piece of evidence that prove masks work, and that is after hundreds of studies, as you yourself claim.
The world isn’t full of slam dunks my friend.There is not a single slam-dunk piece of evidence that prove masks work, and that is after hundreds of studies, as you yourself claim.
Slam dunks are for simpletons who struggle to walk and talk at the same time. Science is often nuanced, and indicative, rather than a Hollywood blockbuster.
Concensus is maybe a word you should learn.
andyeds1234 said:
Ahh, you’re one of those posters, the type that thinks every discussion requires a victory. Noted.
The evidence isn’t wishy washy, it’s pretty specific on what masks can and can’t do. That’s difficult to understand when you read only the first few lines of multi page study, but hey, that would take time and effort.
It’s Dufus or doofus.... dufus.
Not sure I want spelling lessons from some who says "Truth Seaker"The evidence isn’t wishy washy, it’s pretty specific on what masks can and can’t do. That’s difficult to understand when you read only the first few lines of multi page study, but hey, that would take time and effort.
It’s Dufus or doofus.... dufus.
You don't seak the truth, you seek the truth.
kingston12 said:
scottyp123 said:
What perplexes me is the level of compliance from everyone wearing one. Despite nearly every other law being ignored by at least a few people depending on the severity of the law 99.9% seem to have stuck to wearing a mask no questions asked.
I was in the queue for Greggs this morning and there were about 15 people in front of me in the queue, everyone of them had a mask on apart from me and my mate. It looked like a collection of lorry drivers and manual workers judging by the various hi-viz jackets. I'd bet my house that every one of them has broken one or more law that day, maybe broke the speed limit or done a bit of texting whilst driving, threw a bit of rubbish on the floor, maybe done a cash job, even a bit of drink driving every now and then dare I say,the list could be endless.
So why is the compliance so high, it cant be because they are scarred of getting caught otherwise they wouldn't text and drive, thats a £300 fine I think and 6 points and a bking from a copper as well. It can't be because they think they are saving lives either because how can someone in the right mind think that there is less chance of killing someone texting whilst driving than there is by not wearing a mask?
The only thing left must be they are virtue signalling, I can't think of anything else. Surely they must be able to look at the statistics and come to the conclusion that either killing someone or dying yourself from lack of mask use is so miniscule its hardly even worth giving it a second thought.
It's an interesting one. I think that most people just don't see mask wearing as a big issue, so do it to follow the path of least resistance.I was in the queue for Greggs this morning and there were about 15 people in front of me in the queue, everyone of them had a mask on apart from me and my mate. It looked like a collection of lorry drivers and manual workers judging by the various hi-viz jackets. I'd bet my house that every one of them has broken one or more law that day, maybe broke the speed limit or done a bit of texting whilst driving, threw a bit of rubbish on the floor, maybe done a cash job, even a bit of drink driving every now and then dare I say,the list could be endless.
So why is the compliance so high, it cant be because they are scarred of getting caught otherwise they wouldn't text and drive, thats a £300 fine I think and 6 points and a b
king from a copper as well. It can't be because they think they are saving lives either because how can someone in the right mind think that there is less chance of killing someone texting whilst driving than there is by not wearing a mask?The only thing left must be they are virtue signalling, I can't think of anything else. Surely they must be able to look at the statistics and come to the conclusion that either killing someone or dying yourself from lack of mask use is so miniscule its hardly even worth giving it a second thought.
I do think that there is a fear of getting caught though, not necessarily caught by police and fined, just a fear of getting a telling off by the shop assistant and being a bit embarrassed. That's enough for a lot of people.
Different people feel very differently about different 'crimes' as well. In my case, I just couldn't physically bring myself to drop a piece of litter, but I'm often happy to break the speed limit on an NSL road if I feel it is safe to do so. The latter is obviously a more 'serious' crime and is the only one of the two that could result in me injuring or killing someone if I get it wrong.
Edited by kingston12 on Friday 12th March 17:14
Colonel Cupcake said:
But, as I stated earlier, your links showed weak evidence, at best, and a significant percentage of those peers that did review the studies found them wanting.
There is not a single slam-dunk piece of evidence that prove masks work, and that is after hundreds of studies, as you yourself claim.
This is what andyeds1234 cannot bear to hear; that his beloved studies simply do not prove that masks make a major difference. All they do is suggest they MIGHT make a MARGINAL difference. Which rather deflates his balloon, so to speak.There is not a single slam-dunk piece of evidence that prove masks work, and that is after hundreds of studies, as you yourself claim.
Therefore, our government mandating the use of masks in some situations is illogical, unless you believe, as andyeds1234 seems to, that more laws are the answer to everything. Including forcing us to wash our hands
.omniflow said:
andyeds1234 said:
Ahh, you’re one of those posters, the type that thinks every discussion requires a victory. Noted.
The evidence isn’t wishy washy, it’s pretty specific on what masks can and can’t do. That’s difficult to understand when you read only the first few lines of multi page study, but hey, that would take time and effort.
It’s Dufus or doofus.... dufus.
Not sure I want spelling lessons from some who says "Truth Seaker"The evidence isn’t wishy washy, it’s pretty specific on what masks can and can’t do. That’s difficult to understand when you read only the first few lines of multi page study, but hey, that would take time and effort.
It’s Dufus or doofus.... dufus.
You don't seak the truth, you seek the truth.
Important stuff being worked out here.
Brave Fart said:
This is what andyeds1234 cannot bear to hear; that his beloved studies simply do not prove that masks make a major difference. All they do is suggest they MIGHT make a MARGINAL difference. Which rather deflates his balloon, so to speak.
Therefore, our government mandating the use of masks in some situations is illogical, unless you believe, as andyeds1234 seems to, that more laws are the answer to everything. Including forcing us to wash our hands.
Marginal is absolutely fine by me. Ever heard of the aggregation of marginal gains?Therefore, our government mandating the use of masks in some situations is illogical, unless you believe, as andyeds1234 seems to, that more laws are the answer to everything. Including forcing us to wash our hands
.I’m glad you’ve finally come around to their effectiveness.
Edited by andyeds1234 on Friday 12th March 17:52
kingston12 said:
It's an interesting one. I think that most people just don't see mask wearing as a big issue, so do it to follow the path of least resistance.
I do think that there is a fear of getting caught though, not necessarily caught by police and fined, just a fear of getting a telling off by the shop assistant and being a bit embarrassed. That's enough for a lot of people.
Different people feel very differently about different 'crimes' as well. In my case, I just couldn't physically 1
bring myself to drop a piece of litter, but I'm often happy to break the speed limit on an NSL road if I feel it is safe to do so. The latter is obviously a more 'serious' crime and is the only one of the two that could result in me injuring or killing someone if I get it wrong.
I guess it's to do with perceived risk of harm to others. Many people are happy to break laws where they perceive it as a victimless crime, unless its also a rule they support for ideological reasons.I do think that there is a fear of getting caught though, not necessarily caught by police and fined, just a fear of getting a telling off by the shop assistant and being a bit embarrassed. That's enough for a lot of people.
Different people feel very differently about different 'crimes' as well. In my case, I just couldn't physically 1
bring myself to drop a piece of litter, but I'm often happy to break the speed limit on an NSL road if I feel it is safe to do so. The latter is obviously a more 'serious' crime and is the only one of the two that could result in me injuring or killing someone if I get it wrong.
Edited by kingston12 on Friday 12th March 17:14
While the evidence may be unclear as the efficacy of masks, many will take the view that the possible benefits of cumulative effect of compliance, whether proven or not, outweigh the small risk to others especially when combined with very little inconvenience. Also, helps people feel like they are doing their bit.
Personally, I'm unsure of the benefit either way. That said, from time to time I spot those who aren't wearing them apparently to make a point - they belong in the "one thing that makes you think "knob"" thread. IMO of course.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff