NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)
Discussion
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Earthdweller said:
Your wife is contacted for 37 hours per week
If she is working 15 hour days each day then in her normal week she will do 38 hours over time every week
This overtime will be paid at either time and a third or time and a half
If off top of that she is also working her days off
From your comments.,
Either your wife is so senior that she is salaried staff and not hourly contracted in which case her wage will be commensurate with her position and responsibilities
Or she is a nurse ( or other ) paid an hourly rate .. and paid an enhanced rate for every hour over she does and including weekend and unsocial hours enhancements
You are stating that she is working the same number of hours ( or more ) extra than her contract
She WILL be earning a fortune ... and no she cannot be forced to work overtime she will have volunteered to do the extra hours and days and she will be paid for it
I’m assuming she was in the NHS in 2018 ?
The NHS a pay award in 2018 was between 6.5% and 29% for staff depending on band over three years
Many pay bands had their starting rates increased by around 22-25% in 2018
With the increase is starting salaries the average NHS worker received around 10% in 2018
From full fact :
Starting salaries for each of the job bands will rise by between 13% and 23% over the next three years. So, for instance, someone starting a job in Band 4 or 5 in 2020/21 will get paid 13% more than if they started that same job in 2017/18.
instead of staff moving up one pay point a year, there will only be a starting salary and a top salary, with one intermediary pay point in some bands.
However, staff in Bands 2-7 will reach the top pay point in fewer years, and for the job bands that have an intermediary pay point (reached after two years of experience), the salary jump will be higher than it would be after two years in the current pay structure.
Factoring in pay progression and increases in basic salary, 29% is the biggest possible increase in pay for someone over three years—it applies to someone currently on the starting salary in Band 7.
However for those staff earning over £100k the rise was capped at 4.5%
And now they want another 12% ?
She is salaried (very senior manager) but it's still 37 hours per week. I know this because in Jan she was told they'd overpaid her by half an hour a week for the previous year so they were recovering the delta from the next months salary. If she is working 15 hour days each day then in her normal week she will do 38 hours over time every week
This overtime will be paid at either time and a third or time and a half
If off top of that she is also working her days off
From your comments.,
Either your wife is so senior that she is salaried staff and not hourly contracted in which case her wage will be commensurate with her position and responsibilities
Or she is a nurse ( or other ) paid an hourly rate .. and paid an enhanced rate for every hour over she does and including weekend and unsocial hours enhancements
You are stating that she is working the same number of hours ( or more ) extra than her contract
She WILL be earning a fortune ... and no she cannot be forced to work overtime she will have volunteered to do the extra hours and days and she will be paid for it
I’m assuming she was in the NHS in 2018 ?
The NHS a pay award in 2018 was between 6.5% and 29% for staff depending on band over three years
Many pay bands had their starting rates increased by around 22-25% in 2018
With the increase is starting salaries the average NHS worker received around 10% in 2018
From full fact :
Starting salaries for each of the job bands will rise by between 13% and 23% over the next three years. So, for instance, someone starting a job in Band 4 or 5 in 2020/21 will get paid 13% more than if they started that same job in 2017/18.
instead of staff moving up one pay point a year, there will only be a starting salary and a top salary, with one intermediary pay point in some bands.
However, staff in Bands 2-7 will reach the top pay point in fewer years, and for the job bands that have an intermediary pay point (reached after two years of experience), the salary jump will be higher than it would be after two years in the current pay structure.
Factoring in pay progression and increases in basic salary, 29% is the biggest possible increase in pay for someone over three years—it applies to someone currently on the starting salary in Band 7.
However for those staff earning over £100k the rise was capped at 4.5%
And now they want another 12% ?
Edited by Earthdweller on Saturday 6th March 09:13
And for clarity, I agree 12 percent is ridiculous. As does she.
I will say though, that it's a bit disengeniuos to only show the pay increases... You need to include the pension contribution changes too which wipe out a lot of your claimed increase.
The numbers quoted by earthdweller whilst essentially, correct do not paint an accurate view - the salary of a particular grade is the top paypoint for that band. With the last 3 year deal the number of point within a band were reduced, meaning that those at the bottom of a band could progress through increments more speedily (assuming that they met the increased competencies that related to this). If you were at the top of a band the large percentages were not applicable - some staff did quite well with this. One of my team was promoted into a new band in 2018, and over these last 3 years has had a decent uplift. However, having been at the top of my payband for over 10 years my take home pay is almost the same as it was in 2010 (admittedly., I havent lost my job, or been furloughed)
Lots of experienced staff, in their early 50's are getting to the point where after 10 years or so of pretty static wages, and a pretty generous pension provision are getting to the point where they are thinking if its worth the hassle. Retention is becoming a problem, as all these trained staff cant be replaced just like that. 1% rise isnt going to help, 12.5% is a ridiculous number, but something that it at least the same or slightly above inflation would be reasonable
pavarotti1980 said:
Earthdweller said:
A newly qualified nurse is band 5 .. so upto £36k
A staff nurse is Band 6 ... so upto £46k
Band 7 would be specialist nurses, ward managers etc on £50k +
By contrast a fully qualified Police officer in London is on £31k after two years service rising after 12 years to just over £40k
Likewise a firefighter around similar rising to £37k with experience
The question really is how does anyone who isn’t a powerfully built company director afford to live in London?
I think by using salaries with south East salary enhancements is smart A staff nurse is Band 6 ... so upto £46k
Band 7 would be specialist nurses, ward managers etc on £50k +
By contrast a fully qualified Police officer in London is on £31k after two years service rising after 12 years to just over £40k
Likewise a firefighter around similar rising to £37k with experience
The question really is how does anyone who isn’t a powerfully built company director afford to live in London?
Edited by Earthdweller on Saturday 6th March 09:55
Blue62 said:
You missed my point, they’d have done better to freeze pay than offer 1%, it’s pointless in so far as it will make little material difference to the recipients and in PR terms it’s a proper gaff.
As for your predictions, well they are just that, not in line with the treasury view and based on the premise that inflation will pick up, what do you think would trigger inflation?
Monetarising £1 trillion of debt might cause a few issues along the line and the US has just launched its biggest stimulus package in history.As for your predictions, well they are just that, not in line with the treasury view and based on the premise that inflation will pick up, what do you think would trigger inflation?
Inflation doesn't have to rise by much, just by a few percent, and then government finances are under extreme pressure. The office for budgetary responsibility has said that every 1% rise in inflation, interest rates, and the cost of servicing debts will cost the government £25bn. A 2% rise then would add £50bn onto the existing deficit and the BOE will no longer be able to monetarise the deficit to compensate.
We are living in a fantasy world where the catastrophic damage inflicted by lockdown has been concealed from us and one day soon we may wake to reality.
Edited by JagLover on Saturday 6th March 10:17
princeperch said:
I read today that in 2010, a starting salary of a nurse outside of London was £21,176. In 2018 the starting salary was £21,909. An increase over 8 years of 3.46%.
Isnt 2018 when they brought in the new pay structure?Starting salaries now are £24,907 before location weighting
https://www.nurses.co.uk/nursing/blog/what-s-the-t...
T6 vanman said:
youngsyr said:
Your grasp on statistical analysis is basic, to say the least.
Have another try.
I was editing whilst you posted ...... Have another try.
What's your answer to "like for like" ratio of less than half the UK population??
It's just a heart string comment that NHS staff are dying due to their job not based on facts
And I agree with your conclusion about as much as I agree with your statistics, which is to say: not at all.
youngsyr said:
T6 vanman said:
youngsyr said:
Your grasp on statistical analysis is basic, to say the least.
Have another try.
I was editing whilst you posted ...... Have another try.
What's your answer to "like for like" ratio of less than half the UK population??
It's just a heart string comment that NHS staff are dying due to their job not based on facts
And I agree with your conclusion about as much as I agree with your statistics, which is to say: not at all.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55795608
JagLover said:
Monetarising £1 trillion of debt might cause a few issues along the line and the US has just launched its biggest stimulus package in history.
Inflation doesn't have to rise by much, just by a few percent, and then government finances are under extreme pressure. The office for budgetary responsibility has said that every 1% rise in inflation, interest rates, and the cost of servicing debts will cost the government £25bn. A 2% rise then would add £50bn onto the existing deficit and the BOE will no longer be able to monetarise the deficit to compensate.
We are living in a fantasy world where the catastrophic damage inflicted by lockdown has been concealed from us and one day soon we may wake to reality.
I asked you what you thought would trigger inflation, not for an elementary economics lesson, I have a degree in the subject thanks. Inflation doesn't have to rise by much, just by a few percent, and then government finances are under extreme pressure. The office for budgetary responsibility has said that every 1% rise in inflation, interest rates, and the cost of servicing debts will cost the government £25bn. A 2% rise then would add £50bn onto the existing deficit and the BOE will no longer be able to monetarise the deficit to compensate.
We are living in a fantasy world where the catastrophic damage inflicted by lockdown has been concealed from us and one day soon we may wake to reality.
Edited by JagLover on Saturday 6th March 10:17
You seem to have a very narrow view on many things and sometimes appear to get a little stuck, there’s a time and place for monetarism but this may not be it, just a view. I don’t see a fantasy land at all, far from it, but to you it’s the bogeyman you want to scare everyone with who doesn’t sign up to your rather one dimensional, reactionary view of the world. It’s time for a change in thinking JL.
Something I haven't seen mentioned: if the government agree a generous pay rise for nurses, that may trigger other public sector workers to demand similar. The police may have a compelling case, perhaps teachers will argue the same............They can all say "we have worked flat out, we've been exposed to danger, we deserve recognition".
This is just the start. The crazy borrowing to fund largely pointless lockdowns is not going to magically vanish. If the likes of Donna Kinnair think a 12.5% pay rise is fair, she's deluded. We're in for a long spell of austerity. She and others better get used to it.
This is just the start. The crazy borrowing to fund largely pointless lockdowns is not going to magically vanish. If the likes of Donna Kinnair think a 12.5% pay rise is fair, she's deluded. We're in for a long spell of austerity. She and others better get used to it.
princeperch said:
I read today that in 2010, a starting salary of a nurse outside of London was £21,176. In 2018 the starting salary was £21,909. An increase over 8 years of 3.46%.
Contrast this with the starting salary of an mp in 2010 which was £66,738. In 2018 an mps starting salary was £77,379. An increase over the same time period of nearly 18pc.
The tories are toast at the next election. I've always voted tory but I never, ever will do so again.
Slightly disingenuous as MP's pay went through a big restructuring that removed a lot of expenses. It was quite well reported at the time?Contrast this with the starting salary of an mp in 2010 which was £66,738. In 2018 an mps starting salary was £77,379. An increase over the same time period of nearly 18pc.
The tories are toast at the next election. I've always voted tory but I never, ever will do so again.
The thing that bugs me is that pay rises becomes a popularity contest,with far too much noise and very little a analysis.
Early posts on this thread suggested letting the market do it's job to set pay, but it's worth remembering the market system doesn't function well for large public services like this.
I would have thought a bonus would have been a better move.
It's whataboutary at it's finest, but would also agree the government have blotted their copy book with poor procurement and wasted spend, making pleas of poverty ring hollow.
Ian
youngsyr said:
You certainly can't equate 'inflation' with CPI. CPI is a figure tortured to within an inch of its life to make it as low as possible. It excludes such non-essential items as housing costs...TTmonkey said:
How easy some people forget.
And it makes you wonder.... how many friends of government have made a fortune thus last 12 months on bent deals.....
Seeing Sarkozy get 3 yrs jail gives me some hope that in years to come, these thieving corrupt
s will be chained together and breaking rocks. Sierra Nevada said:
What happened to the £350m a week brexit dividend? Surely that's enough to pay for the NHS pay rise many times over.
My partner works in the NHS on the ITU ward. She said it's living hell. Pure stress. Think the guys in this forum clearly do not understand the stress and hell nurses go through especially during this covid19 period.
Remember it's not just about pay now it's about retaining and hiring future nurses. I would say 5 percent pay rise is what is needed. I'm sure half you guys with good jobs wouldn't argue about that.
1 percent pay rise is just a pi** take for all the stress nurses and health care works have gone though. Remember without the NHS and the dedication of NHS workers more people would have died. I'm sure you would prefer to be looked up professionally by a nurse than to go into a hospital with no nurses and no treatment.
Also remember that it's the NHS who are rolling out the vaccine, so without them we would be stuffed. We would end up with private companies administering the vaccine and you know how they will end up. Matt Hancock will find out that his best mate runs a vaccine company or something.
Half the guys on pistionheads clearly have money, I'm sure they would be pissed if they worked like a dog and got told here is your 0.3 percent pay rise in real terms. I would personally reject that 0.3 percent real terms payrise as a piss take.
You have to remember that 0.3 percent of barely anything is nothing. They should be given a minimum of £5k I say. What you going to do with £1 a week exactly. Can barely buy a chocolate bar.
I’d be willing to bet my house that more than half of PH’ers have had enormous pay cuts in the last year, nothing like pay rises.My partner works in the NHS on the ITU ward. She said it's living hell. Pure stress. Think the guys in this forum clearly do not understand the stress and hell nurses go through especially during this covid19 period.
Remember it's not just about pay now it's about retaining and hiring future nurses. I would say 5 percent pay rise is what is needed. I'm sure half you guys with good jobs wouldn't argue about that.
1 percent pay rise is just a pi** take for all the stress nurses and health care works have gone though. Remember without the NHS and the dedication of NHS workers more people would have died. I'm sure you would prefer to be looked up professionally by a nurse than to go into a hospital with no nurses and no treatment.
Also remember that it's the NHS who are rolling out the vaccine, so without them we would be stuffed. We would end up with private companies administering the vaccine and you know how they will end up. Matt Hancock will find out that his best mate runs a vaccine company or something.
Half the guys on pistionheads clearly have money, I'm sure they would be pissed if they worked like a dog and got told here is your 0.3 percent pay rise in real terms. I would personally reject that 0.3 percent real terms payrise as a piss take.
You have to remember that 0.3 percent of barely anything is nothing. They should be given a minimum of £5k I say. What you going to do with £1 a week exactly. Can barely buy a chocolate bar.
Do you actually know what the economy is like right now?
My household income is down by nearly 70%. Do you fancy a 70% pay cut?
Misanthrope said:
youngsyr said:
You certainly can't equate 'inflation' with CPI. CPI is a figure tortured to within an inch of its life to make it as low as possible. It excludes such non-essential items as housing costs...ONS said:
Our position on the RPI is clear: we do not think it is a good measure of inflation and discourage its use. There are other, better measures available and any use of RPI over these far superior alternatives should be closely scrutinised.
They are statisticians not politicians.https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpricein...
RPI is usually different to CPIH as well.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Indeed. They seem to find money for other stuff, £350K ex legal fees to compensate the victims of Priti Patel's vile behaviour, yet she's still in a job. Millions to be spend redecoration No10 to Carrie's demands. Billions spunked an dodgy PPE contracts to mates of ministers who never delivered. A million a day to deloitte to run a track and trace fiasco, presided over by Dildo Hard-In, with no disclosure over her salary, working hours etc.
Seeing Sarkozy get 3 yrs jail gives me some hope that in years to come, these thieving corrupts will be chained together and breaking rocks.
Tories... 'nuff said.Seeing Sarkozy get 3 yrs jail gives me some hope that in years to come, these thieving corrupt
s will be chained together and breaking rocks. JagLover said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
And private sector pay rises are significantly more than that... Internationally 4.4 percent average. And within the UK most sectors are way above 1 percent.
Not sure the relevance of international pay rises?. As for the UK we will wait and see where pay rises in the private sector for 2021 end up. Many private sector employers had a pay freeze in 2020 and many cut pay.
youngsyr said:
oyster said:
youngsyr said:
I think what angers me most about it, is the weasel-ness of it; 1% is the minimum amount that could even be put forward as a "pay rise".
Below 1.0% and people will write it off as negligble.
And the reality that it isn't even a real-terms pay rise - nurses purchasing power will be lower next year than it is now.
At the very least it should be inflation matching, and the Tories could play it out as making an exemption from the pay cuts for their hard work.
I would have preferred a one-off "Covid Recognition Reward" of say £1k (non-taxable) to every frontline healthcare worker (and keep them in the pay freeze) to show them that, you know, we actually appreciate what they've done over the past year.
You do know inflation is 0.7% right?Below 1.0% and people will write it off as negligble.
And the reality that it isn't even a real-terms pay rise - nurses purchasing power will be lower next year than it is now.
At the very least it should be inflation matching, and the Tories could play it out as making an exemption from the pay cuts for their hard work.
I would have preferred a one-off "Covid Recognition Reward" of say £1k (non-taxable) to every frontline healthcare worker (and keep them in the pay freeze) to show them that, you know, we actually appreciate what they've done over the past year.
https://ycharts.com/indicators/uk_retail_price_ind...
Either way +1% still trumps my -70% since Covid came about.
It’s ok though, I guess my private sector pension will make up for that ...... oh hang on.
Or maybe all those discounts being thrown my way over the last year?
Rather than a pay increase, which would affect future staff and pensions, I'd have thought a one-off bonus would make more sense.
Given that the government has been happy to furlough every man and their dog, dropping a eye catching cash bomb on nurses and ICU staff who were actually working pretty solidly would seem a great PR opportunity. This is up there with Clegg's uni fees u-turn, with the difference that the NHS probably arent Conservative voters.
I don't like <insert party> bashing in general, but I do wonder if the Tories have some massive blind spot or prejudice against health staff. I felt similarly amazed when student grants were removed for nursing students, effectively making their degree more expensive than more profitable ones.
Given that the government has been happy to furlough every man and their dog, dropping a eye catching cash bomb on nurses and ICU staff who were actually working pretty solidly would seem a great PR opportunity. This is up there with Clegg's uni fees u-turn, with the difference that the NHS probably arent Conservative voters.
I don't like <insert party> bashing in general, but I do wonder if the Tories have some massive blind spot or prejudice against health staff. I felt similarly amazed when student grants were removed for nursing students, effectively making their degree more expensive than more profitable ones.
glazbagun said:
Rather than a pay increase, which would affect future staff and pensions, I'd have thought a one-off bonus would make more sense.
Indeed, reward the ones that have put in the graft, certainly not all of them and a one off thank you payment not paying everyone forever.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff