NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)
Discussion
voyds9 said:
youngsyr said:
F
king hell, there are some ignorant people in here.
Do you think that ICU staff just stop caring about deaths after a few weeks in the job?
You think they're some sort of psychopathic robots that are immune to emotions?
I've seen one at the point of tears talking to a mother about her son's death.
Not to mention that many staff will not have a lot of experience with deaths prior to this year.
I'm genuinely amazed at the attitude of a lot of people on here. This was a once in a century pandemic that killed 125,000 people in a year, not just a bad flu season.
Please educate yourselves, FFS.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/22/covi...
So annually about 530,000 people die in the UK but nurses are shocked and suffering from 125,000 deaths (mainly in very old people).king hell, there are some ignorant people in here.Do you think that ICU staff just stop caring about deaths after a few weeks in the job?
You think they're some sort of psychopathic robots that are immune to emotions?
I've seen one at the point of tears talking to a mother about her son's death.
Not to mention that many staff will not have a lot of experience with deaths prior to this year.
I'm genuinely amazed at the attitude of a lot of people on here. This was a once in a century pandemic that killed 125,000 people in a year, not just a bad flu season.
Please educate yourselves, FFS.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/22/covi...
Edited by youngsyr on Saturday 6th March 21:21
Oh and the Hong Kong flu killed 89,000 in iirc 1972-73 so not really a once in a century occurrence
rufusgti said:
I'm not sure the majority accept that. I hope not anyway. That kind of defeatist attitude will sink a ship.
Although if we insist on voting in bumbling populist clowns with a history of bullst, then yes, I guess we get what we ask for.
Whether they accept it or not is neither here nor there.Although if we insist on voting in bumbling populist clowns with a history of bulls
t, then yes, I guess we get what we ask for. It’s a matter of fact.
Being a realist is not defeatist.
Do try harder.
rufusgti said:
No it's not. It's your opinion.
No it’s not. It’s a matter of fact.Our current account deficit is laughable.
We make nothing at all of any substance.
Our education system is a national disgrace.
Our levels of public and private debt are pretty much unprecedented in peacetime and are essentially un-repayable.
To imagine for a moment that this could possibly end well is to be self deluding.
Optimism about our collective future is an absurdity.
Live in some utopian dreamworld if you like. Just don’t expect others to indulge you in your fantasies.
LetsTryAgain said:
No it’s not. It’s a matter of fact.
Our current account deficit is laughable.
We make nothing at all of any substance.
Our education system is a national disgrace.
Our levels of public and private debt are pretty much unprecedented in peacetime and are essentially un-repayable.
To imagine for a moment that this could possibly end well is to be self deluding.
Optimism about our collective future is an absurdity.
Live in some utopian dreamworld if you like. Just don’t expect others to indulge you in your fantasies.
Broadly agree with that, sadly. Our current account deficit is laughable.
We make nothing at all of any substance.
Our education system is a national disgrace.
Our levels of public and private debt are pretty much unprecedented in peacetime and are essentially un-repayable.
To imagine for a moment that this could possibly end well is to be self deluding.
Optimism about our collective future is an absurdity.
Live in some utopian dreamworld if you like. Just don’t expect others to indulge you in your fantasies.
LetsTryAgain said:
rufusgti said:
No it's not. It's your opinion.
No it’s not. It’s a matter of fact.Our current account deficit is laughable.
We make nothing at all of any substance.
Our education system is a national disgrace.
Our levels of public and private debt are pretty much unprecedented in peacetime and are essentially un-repayable.
To imagine for a moment that this could possibly end well is to be self deluding.
Optimism about our collective future is an absurdity.
Live in some utopian dreamworld if you like. Just don’t expect others to indulge you in your fantasies.
Our current account and deficit is on par with most other developed countries in the world other than Norway.
Our education system is still pretty high up there compared to other countries.
Although we have contracted out many of the basic manufacturing of basic goods to other countries, we do still have a world leading science and engineering society. We are still one of the leading places for finance and services. Selling/charging for these services overseas is still export in economic terms.
Our future lies in our hands. We can make it better or we can convince ourselves that it is not possible.
catweasle said:
For example, Paediatric nurses are not used to seeing people dying en masse but very many were seconded into ITU's........... during the peaks, as a guesstimate,my wife reckons as many as 20% of nurses working in ITU had no previous experience in them.
20% sounds like a massive underestimate. The one to one nursing care was performed in expanded ITUs by non-ITU nurses. The ITU nurses were supervising them at up to a 1 to 6 ratio.However the point you raised is spot on. Most medical, nursing and support staff were simply not used to the high death rate seen in ITU, nor were they used to treating colleagues, many of whom died, nor were they used to the incredibly hot and difficult conditions encountered working with full PPU.
I accept the envy expressed by many who have either seen a pay cut or a job loss and find it difficult to understand how another group of workers can possibly complain about a pay rise of any sort. However I think you have to balance that with the needs of the NHS in the near future.
Regardless of pay rises I can see a substantial exodus of staff from the NHS exacerbating the staffing shortage just when it will be needed most. Many people I know can't take the stress put on them by the pandemic and many have reassessed their life priorities. Like many outside the NHS those within have also started wondering if its worth sacrificing quality of life during your working life in return for a decent retirement which now may not materialise. COVID isn't going to disappear, it will still continue to be a large burden on the health service even though I expect both admissions and deaths to fall substantially. The need to catch up on waiting lists of all sorts will put a significant strain too. The question is whether you think having a functioning NHS is important.
Also one ought to remember that under the clap for carers rhetoric this government has been tone deaf to the needs of NHS staff. Weeks after thanking overseas nurses by name for saving his life Boris Johnson then tried to introduce a post-tax fee of over £600 per person to all non-British citizens for using the NHS, including NHS workers (for a family of four this would have meant £2400, a lot even if you're earning the stratospherically large amount of 36k per year). Fortunately this was cancelled after widespread opposition, however the logic of trying to introduce this during a pandemic when the only possible result would be to encourage foreign NHS staff to leave is difficult to fathom. Things like this have not been forgotten, nor has the failure to provide adequate PPE then to claim there never was a shortage in the first place. Then there is the unrelenting stinginess when it comes to things like nursing pay in very stark contrast to the amazingly bountiful amounts of money available to anyone who can bid for a pandemic related contract as long as they have a)shagged a cabinet minister, b)served a pint to one or c) went to the same school as one. There is a great deal of brooding resentment against the government which if they aren't careful is going to erupt, just as it did with the junior doctor's strike.
I guess the way to sort it is not to go into nursing, then they have to pay more ?
I get the impression there is a shortage, I also get the impression there was an expectation of a big rise due to Covid, well suppose that is unlikely due to increased expenditure and lower tax take, 12 percent isnt happening for anyone, even the MPs pay rise got cancelled and there arent many MPs in comparison to nurses.
What is he expected salary for nursing, its a tough gig and not for everyone but how far off are pay rates ?
I get the impression there is a shortage, I also get the impression there was an expectation of a big rise due to Covid, well suppose that is unlikely due to increased expenditure and lower tax take, 12 percent isnt happening for anyone, even the MPs pay rise got cancelled and there arent many MPs in comparison to nurses.
What is he expected salary for nursing, its a tough gig and not for everyone but how far off are pay rates ?
Boxer4 said:
20% sounds like a massive underestimate. The one to one nursing care was performed in expanded ITUs by non-ITU nurses. The ITU nurses were supervising them at up to a 1 to 6 ratio.
However the point you raised is spot on. Most medical, nursing and support staff were simply not used to the high death rate seen in ITU, nor were they used to treating colleagues, many of whom died, nor were they used to the incredibly hot and difficult conditions encountered working with full PPU.
.
My wife is a very senior nurse with 35+ yrs experience in ITU & theatres. Unfortunately she isn't keen on posting what she knows / experienced / saw 1st hand on a motoring forum but having slept in a London hospital and not even coming home for 6 weeks during the 1st wave last March, I can't wait until she actually retires like she supposedly had done 5 years ago...even now she's away from home 4 days a week.However the point you raised is spot on. Most medical, nursing and support staff were simply not used to the high death rate seen in ITU, nor were they used to treating colleagues, many of whom died, nor were they used to the incredibly hot and difficult conditions encountered working with full PPU.
.
As to your point.......I think she may have meant 20% with no previous ITU experience whatsoever....yet "returnees" with many years ITU experience who may have recently expired registrations were only allowed to work as HCA's
leef44 said:
I am surprised there is so little sympathy for the nurses. Is this due to the frustration of lockdown? Is it because of the way the government handled the whole crisis?
No in my case, it's because I have spent the last two and a half years with my wife dealing with stage 4 ovarian cancer. I have seen a lot of the NHS in that time. More than I had in my previous 45 years put together. I have seen a brilliant surgical team (including a surgeon who not only came in on his day off, but actually travelled back from holiday at a few hours notice to ensure the most experienced pair of hands was at the helm).
I have seen 3 excellent ICU nurses over 2 days immediately postop.
I saw 1 amazing nurse on a general ward, but he was actually an ICU nurse travelling from Newcastle to the south of England on a weekly base to earn very nicely on a general ward as cover.
One or two other good nurses have probably escaped my memory, but...
Other than that I have seen complete and total incompetence. Of management, of basic care, you name it, I have seen it. Nurses who don't realise that a patient on a gastric ward hasn't eaten for 72 hours. Nurses leaving people without pain medication for 4 or 5 hours. Nurses who fail to bring liquid nutrition to patients who can't eat for over 24 hours. Community nurses who don't come with the correct equipment for patients they have been seeing for months. A system that requires my wife (stage4 ovarian cancer remember) to cycle or walk to collect equipment for community nurses from the local hospital (oh, and to take the bloods in to be analysed, because it's too difficult for them to take them to the pick up at the GPs surgery).
None of these failings are because of Covid. They happened before, they happened during.
Is it because of overwork? No, because a few nurses can do what they should, when they should, and make it effortless. But 90% are worse than useless. I wouldn't let most of them flip burgers (and I don't even eat any kind of takeaway or fast food, so don't give a toss how well it's done).
And don't go asking me about Doctors either - that isn't much better for the most part.
So a pay rise when even a NQ nurse earns more than I do? Take a guess where I stand... If I could take 50% of the salary from the 90% and give it to the 10%, I'd be more than happy.
catweasle said:
My wife is a very senior nurse with 35+ yrs experience in ITU & theatres. Unfortunately she isn't keen on posting what she knows / experienced / saw 1st hand on a motoring forum but having slept in a London hospital and not even coming home for 6 weeks during the 1st wave last March, I can't wait until she actually retires like she supposedly had done 5 years ago...even now she's away from home 4 days a week.
As to your point.......I think she may have meant 20% with no previous ITU experience whatsoever....yet "returnees" with many years ITU experience who may have recently expired registrations were only allowed to work as HCA's
Let’s face it, she wouldn’t be believed anyway by many on here.As to your point.......I think she may have meant 20% with no previous ITU experience whatsoever....yet "returnees" with many years ITU experience who may have recently expired registrations were only allowed to work as HCA's
The policy you mention must have depended on the trust. All our nursing staff with decent ITU experience were requisitioned and worked as ITU nurses. Unless you mean returning retirees?
catweasle said:
My wife is a very senior nurse with 35+ yrs experience in ITU & theatres. Unfortunately she isn't keen on posting what she knows / experienced / saw 1st hand on a motoring forum but having slept in a London hospital and not even coming home for 6 weeks during the 1st wave last March, I can't wait until she actually retires like she supposedly had done 5 years ago...even now she's away from home 4 days a week.
As to your point.......I think she may have meant 20% with no previous ITU experience whatsoever....yet "returnees" with many years ITU experience who may have recently expired registrations were only allowed to work as HCA's
This is not a criticism of any staff but whose decision would it have been to use those experienced staff as HCA’s rather than what they were clearly highly qualified for?As to your point.......I think she may have meant 20% with no previous ITU experience whatsoever....yet "returnees" with many years ITU experience who may have recently expired registrations were only allowed to work as HCA's
And would those highly experienced staff have been a risk working on the ITUs or at the very least more than a HCA?
My guess, for what it’s worth and with no medical background, would have been that the staff would have been no risk to patients in the ITU and would have been of real benefit. The NHS management, so far removed from the front line, would have decided the policy, for the same inexplicable reason that they didn’t take advantage of staff that volunteered for the Nightingales- I know of 3 people who heard nothing at all.
LetsTryAgain said:
rufusgti said:
No it's not. It's your opinion.
No it’s not. It’s a matter of fact.Our current account deficit is laughable.
We make nothing at all of any substance.
Our education system is a national disgrace.
Our levels of public and private debt are pretty much unprecedented in peacetime and are essentially un-repayable.
To imagine for a moment that this could possibly end well is to be self deluding.
Optimism about our collective future is an absurdity.
Live in some utopian dreamworld if you like. Just don’t expect others to indulge you in your fantasies.
s off... Th UK is the 8th largest manufacturer in the world... Vanden Saab said:
LetsTryAgain said:
rufusgti said:
No it's not. It's your opinion.
No it’s not. It’s a matter of fact.Our current account deficit is laughable.
We make nothing at all of any substance.
Our education system is a national disgrace.
Our levels of public and private debt are pretty much unprecedented in peacetime and are essentially un-repayable.
To imagine for a moment that this could possibly end well is to be self deluding.
Optimism about our collective future is an absurdity.
Live in some utopian dreamworld if you like. Just don’t expect others to indulge you in your fantasies.
s off... Th UK is the 8th largest manufacturer in the world... 
LetsTryAgain said:
rufusgti said:
No it's not. It's your opinion.
No it’s not. It’s a matter of fact.Our current account deficit is laughable.
We make nothing at all of any substance.
Our education system is a national disgrace.
Our levels of public and private debt are pretty much unprecedented in peacetime and are essentially un-repayable.
To imagine for a moment that this could possibly end well is to be self deluding.
Optimism about our collective future is an absurdity.
Live in some utopian dreamworld if you like. Just don’t expect others to indulge you in your fantasies.
I'll gladly have this debate on another thread. But the second you argue that your opinions are FACT, it shows you're not really up for one.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff