NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)
Discussion
Vanden Saab said:
The main problem at the moment is the high level of qualifications needed to become a nurse. AIUI all nursing courses are oversubscribed but shortages are due to some not meeting the qualification levels. In the old days there were two levels of nurse SEN and SRN. The SEN was for those who were less academic and provided a lower level of qualification and a shorter training period. Many SEN nurses went on to do the conversation course to upgrade to SRN status at a later date.
A cheaper and shorter route into nursing via a similar scheme now with the chance of upgrading to full nurse status in the longer term would not only prove an effective way of recruiting more nurses in the short term but also allow those who are less gifted academically and often from lower social groups with the problems around financing their training but who often make the best nurses a way into the profession.
Exactly this - will anything change? Unlikely I suspect. I can’t recall sure whose idea it was to have all nurses go through a degree process before qualification- whether it was government, the nursing council or the universities?A cheaper and shorter route into nursing via a similar scheme now with the chance of upgrading to full nurse status in the longer term would not only prove an effective way of recruiting more nurses in the short term but also allow those who are less gifted academically and often from lower social groups with the problems around financing their training but who often make the best nurses a way into the profession.
There was a time when the bursary was stopped although IIRC, it has either started again or is due to start again.
There was the situation last year where the NHS gave short term contracts to nearly qualified nurses and again, from memory, decided not to continue with them.
let's face it the furlough has been far too generous plus it allowed people to take up a job whilst getting it. Say in some circumstances a couple were getting the max £2500 month each, that's ludicrous.
Factor in there was no eating out, holidays etc etc to pay for
Yet now public sector workers are in reality being "taxed" to pay for this
Factor in there was no eating out, holidays etc etc to pay for
Yet now public sector workers are in reality being "taxed" to pay for this
loskie said:
let's face it the furlough has been far too generous plus it allowed people to take up a job whilst getting it. Say in some circumstances a couple were getting the max £2500 month each, that's ludicrous.
Factor in there was no eating out, holidays etc etc to pay for
Yet now public sector workers are in reality being "taxed" to pay for this
It should have been pretty obvious to most people that furlough and all the other magic money tree giveaways would have to be paid for somehow. However, many people can not see the bigger picture, even those on furlough and the public sector workers I suspect.Factor in there was no eating out, holidays etc etc to pay for
Yet now public sector workers are in reality being "taxed" to pay for this
The government have made a rod for their own back by using the NHS as an example and it would have made sense to stick with what had been agreed(apparently 2.1%) this year and then tackle the issue at a later stage.
They have delayed increasing Corporation Tax so why not do the same with Public sector pay?
The optics are pretty bad from whichever side of the fence you are on regarding the position.
Welshbeef said:
youngsyr said:
Murmurs from a couple of nursing unions that strike action could be a possibility following a 1% pay rise being announced and reported by BBC.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56299663
Matt Hancock said the proposal was "what we think is affordable" given financial pressures caused by the Covid pandemic.
He added staff had been exempted from the wider freeze on public sector pay to reward their "incredible" work.
There's also talk of a "slow clap" for the government next Thursday.
Not a big fan of unions or strikes, but can't help but feel that a real-terms pay cut is a kick in the teeth for any NHS staff given what they've just been through.
And this government has zero credibility when it talks about affordability - remember the £1bn bung to the DUP to secure the supply and confidence agreement with the Tories?!
You do realise the £1billion bung meant there were cuts from rUK it’s a zero sum game. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56299663
Matt Hancock said the proposal was "what we think is affordable" given financial pressures caused by the Covid pandemic.
He added staff had been exempted from the wider freeze on public sector pay to reward their "incredible" work.
There's also talk of a "slow clap" for the government next Thursday.
Not a big fan of unions or strikes, but can't help but feel that a real-terms pay cut is a kick in the teeth for any NHS staff given what they've just been through.
And this government has zero credibility when it talks about affordability - remember the £1bn bung to the DUP to secure the supply and confidence agreement with the Tories?!
LetsTryAgain said:
youngsyr said:
The government has a literal money printing machine, it's anything but a zero sum game!!!
Yes. Which devalues every single pound that is already in circulation. According to some in this very thread, inflation is at 0.7% (it's actually 0.9%) after a pro-longed period of running the money machine at full speed.
And there seems to be plenty of money for Boris' mates, but apparently not for nurses?
Vanden Saab said:
The main problem at the moment is the high level of qualifications needed to become a nurse. AIUI all nursing courses are oversubscribed but shortages are due to some not meeting the qualification levels. In the old days there were two levels of nurse SEN and SRN. The SEN was for those who were less academic and provided a lower level of qualification and a shorter training period. Many SEN nurses went on to do the conversation course to upgrade to SRN status at a later date.
A cheaper and shorter route into nursing via a similar scheme now with the chance of upgrading to full nurse status in the longer term would not only prove an effective way of recruiting more nurses in the short term but also allow those who are less gifted academically and often from lower social groups with the problems around financing their training but who often make the best nurses a way into the profession.
YesA cheaper and shorter route into nursing via a similar scheme now with the chance of upgrading to full nurse status in the longer term would not only prove an effective way of recruiting more nurses in the short term but also allow those who are less gifted academically and often from lower social groups with the problems around financing their training but who often make the best nurses a way into the profession.
Often there is more interest in nursing as a career than there have been places to study it. It is not only the places at universities but the NHS themselves need to fund training positions in hospitals and, based on this article, that is usually restricted to 22K places and has recently been expanded to 30K places due to the surge in interest lately.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/student-...
A practical route into the profession is no doubt part of the solution as is more training placements being on offer.
Boxer4 said:
Let’s face it, she wouldn’t be believed anyway by many on here.
The policy you mention must have depended on the trust. All our nursing staff with decent ITU experience were requisitioned and worked as ITU nurses. Unless you mean returning retirees?
Sorry yes I wasn't clear..I should have said returning retirees.......sorryThe policy you mention must have depended on the trust. All our nursing staff with decent ITU experience were requisitioned and worked as ITU nurses. Unless you mean returning retirees?
Boringvolvodriver said:
loskie said:
let's face it the furlough has been far too generous plus it allowed people to take up a job whilst getting it. Say in some circumstances a couple were getting the max £2500 month each, that's ludicrous.
Factor in there was no eating out, holidays etc etc to pay for
Yet now public sector workers are in reality being "taxed" to pay for this
It should have been pretty obvious to most people that furlough and all the other magic money tree giveaways would have to be paid for somehow. However, many people can not see the bigger picture, even those on furlough and the public sector workers I suspect.Factor in there was no eating out, holidays etc etc to pay for
Yet now public sector workers are in reality being "taxed" to pay for this
The government have made a rod for their own back by using the NHS as an example and it would have made sense to stick with what had been agreed(apparently 2.1%) this year and then tackle the issue at a later stage.
They have delayed increasing Corporation Tax so why not do the same with Public sector pay?
The optics are pretty bad from whichever side of the fence you are on regarding the position.
With a large number of people already or about to suffer the results of the last year it seems it is a relatively small number of vocal people complaining. We have three nurses in the family and all are embarrassed by the 12.5% union claim and want nothing to do with it saying they expect a back lash when working from patients because of the extreme nature of it. .
I've never really understood the "Nurses and teachers are underpaid" thing.
Where I live, the majority of PAYE jobs done by women are either seasonal, retail, caring, admin, or public service.
Most of the jobs in the private sector pay not that much above minimum wage. Those in the private sector that do pay better are shrinking (banking).
Jobs in supermarkets are quite highly prized, as they offer some flexibility on hours, and pay a pound or so above minimum. There's plenty of younger people with degrees and diplomas working at my local Sainsbury's.
For the majority, earning £20k a year would be considered a good wage. Very little chance of earning the national average.
A way out is to get into nursing or teaching, where £30k is achievable a couple of years after qualifying, with the promise of advancement and a decent pension. Applications for nursing courses are massively over-subscribed, many get turned down. I know a couple of ex-supermarket colleagues in their 30's who went through a lot of financial pain to get a nursing degree, because it was a way to get a more secure and better-paid job.
It might be different in London or wherever, but nursing or teaching is pretty much the only well-paid option out in the sticks.
I think the answer is to massively expand the number of courses, maybe at 2 levels as someone suggested earlier (shorter diploma-level, and the full degree, with the possibility of upgrading), and paying enough to attract the numbers required. This could mean paying a fair bit more in big cities, while maintaining or even reducing pay in the provinces.
There's no reason why a nurse in Cornwall or Cumbria should earn the same as one in London.
Where I live, the majority of PAYE jobs done by women are either seasonal, retail, caring, admin, or public service.
Most of the jobs in the private sector pay not that much above minimum wage. Those in the private sector that do pay better are shrinking (banking).
Jobs in supermarkets are quite highly prized, as they offer some flexibility on hours, and pay a pound or so above minimum. There's plenty of younger people with degrees and diplomas working at my local Sainsbury's.
For the majority, earning £20k a year would be considered a good wage. Very little chance of earning the national average.
A way out is to get into nursing or teaching, where £30k is achievable a couple of years after qualifying, with the promise of advancement and a decent pension. Applications for nursing courses are massively over-subscribed, many get turned down. I know a couple of ex-supermarket colleagues in their 30's who went through a lot of financial pain to get a nursing degree, because it was a way to get a more secure and better-paid job.
It might be different in London or wherever, but nursing or teaching is pretty much the only well-paid option out in the sticks.
I think the answer is to massively expand the number of courses, maybe at 2 levels as someone suggested earlier (shorter diploma-level, and the full degree, with the possibility of upgrading), and paying enough to attract the numbers required. This could mean paying a fair bit more in big cities, while maintaining or even reducing pay in the provinces.
There's no reason why a nurse in Cornwall or Cumbria should earn the same as one in London.
austinsmirk said:
How about we as a nation look after ourselves better?
Don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, drink less. Stop being morbidly obese. Exercise perhaps?
There would be far less call for the nhs.
Of course we could just keep hammering our bodies and hope medical science will prop us up with no regard to cost.
Watch peoples reaction when you suggest they should lose some weight for the NHS instead of clapping...Don’t smoke, don’t do drugs, drink less. Stop being morbidly obese. Exercise perhaps?
There would be far less call for the nhs.
Of course we could just keep hammering our bodies and hope medical science will prop us up with no regard to cost.
Edited by InfoRetrieval on Sunday 7th March 11:55
vulture1 said:
Should have just done it as a 1 off bonus. People will see value in £250 or £500 extra but 1% psychologically sounds s
t even if it was more than the bonus 1 off payment
t even if it was more than the bonus 1 off payment
This has been handled so incompetently it reminds me of the old "wreck the NHS so we can privatise it" theories from the Hunt days of picking a fight on Jr Doctors pay.
This should have been a time for grandstanding and splashing the cash. Thanks hero NHS staff, here's a grand for every nurse/health worker who's worked +xx% over their contracted hours/ in an ICU/ whatever criterea. Big dent in the budget, but worth it for the hundreds of thousands of lifes saved and barely a scratch compared to furlough pay.
There will always be those who moan, but showering favour on a chosen few everywo/men is just good PR. Instead we can enjoy another round of the press, government and unions at each others throats.
vulture1 said:
Should have just done it as a 1 off bonus. People will see value in £250 or £500 extra but 1% psychologically sounds st even if it was more than the bonus 1 off payment
A good number of NHS trusts have given their staff a one of bonus payment already - I work for 2 trusts and have had £150 between them - staff have taken these tokens very positively, and galvanised staff spirits (particularly as they arrived in the height of the recent wave).t even if it was more than the bonus 1 off paymentJagLover said:
Vanden Saab said:
The main problem at the moment is the high level of qualifications needed to become a nurse. AIUI all nursing courses are oversubscribed but shortages are due to some not meeting the qualification levels. In the old days there were two levels of nurse SEN and SRN. The SEN was for those who were less academic and provided a lower level of qualification and a shorter training period. Many SEN nurses went on to do the conversation course to upgrade to SRN status at a later date.
A cheaper and shorter route into nursing via a similar scheme now with the chance of upgrading to full nurse status in the longer term would not only prove an effective way of recruiting more nurses in the short term but also allow those who are less gifted academically and often from lower social groups with the problems around financing their training but who often make the best nurses a way into the profession.
YesA cheaper and shorter route into nursing via a similar scheme now with the chance of upgrading to full nurse status in the longer term would not only prove an effective way of recruiting more nurses in the short term but also allow those who are less gifted academically and often from lower social groups with the problems around financing their training but who often make the best nurses a way into the profession.
Often there is more interest in nursing as a career than there have been places to study it. It is not only the places at universities but the NHS themselves need to fund training positions in hospitals and, based on this article, that is usually restricted to 22K places and has recently been expanded to 30K places due to the surge in interest lately.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/student-...
A practical route into the profession is no doubt part of the solution as is more training placements being on offer.
My Mrs went into nursing at 18, got a job as a student nurse at a hospital and lived for three years in the Nurses home.
Passed all her theory and practical exams and passed as a fully qualified RGN aged 21 with loads of practical experience and no legacy debt having worked throughout although being paid very little
I do think back to the future is the way, there’s far too much emphasis on degree qualifications to enter
The way things are going you’ll need a masters degree to be an Infantry soldier
Earthdweller said:
Bring back in house training
My Mrs went into nursing at 18, got a job as a student nurse at a hospital and lived for three years in the Nurses home.
Passed all her theory and practical exams and passed as a fully qualified RGN aged 21 with loads of practical experience and no legacy debt having worked throughout although being paid very little
I do think back to the future is the way, there’s far too much emphasis on degree qualifications to enter
The way things are going you’ll need a masters degree to be an Infantry soldier
I know someone that followed a very similar path to your Mrs that would agree with you.My Mrs went into nursing at 18, got a job as a student nurse at a hospital and lived for three years in the Nurses home.
Passed all her theory and practical exams and passed as a fully qualified RGN aged 21 with loads of practical experience and no legacy debt having worked throughout although being paid very little
I do think back to the future is the way, there’s far too much emphasis on degree qualifications to enter
The way things are going you’ll need a masters degree to be an Infantry soldier
My dad was in hospital 3 n a half years ago, dead now. But the trainee nurses were doing a degree from University Of The West Of Scotland, I'm sure even though they were working that they were still to pay tuition fees. I think that it had just come in, don't know if that's still the case but it seemed ludicrous.
Along with charging staff for car parking although I don't think that happens in Dumfries and Galloway.
Along with charging staff for car parking although I don't think that happens in Dumfries and Galloway.
clockworks said:
I've never really understood the "Nurses and teachers are underpaid" thing.
Where I live, the majority of PAYE jobs done by women are either seasonal, retail, caring, admin, or public service.
Most of the jobs in the private sector pay not that much above minimum wage. Those in the private sector that do pay better are shrinking (banking).
Jobs in supermarkets are quite highly prized, as they offer some flexibility on hours, and pay a pound or so above minimum. There's plenty of younger people with degrees and diplomas working at my local Sainsbury's.
For the majority, earning £20k a year would be considered a good wage. Very little chance of earning the national average.
A way out is to get into nursing or teaching, where £30k is achievable a couple of years after qualifying, with the promise of advancement and a decent pension. Applications for nursing courses are massively over-subscribed, many get turned down. I know a couple of ex-supermarket colleagues in their 30's who went through a lot of financial pain to get a nursing degree, because it was a way to get a more secure and better-paid job.
It might be different in London or wherever, but nursing or teaching is pretty much the only well-paid option out in the sticks.
I think the answer is to massively expand the number of courses, maybe at 2 levels as someone suggested earlier (shorter diploma-level, and the full degree, with the possibility of upgrading), and paying enough to attract the numbers required. This could mean paying a fair bit more in big cities, while maintaining or even reducing pay in the provinces.
There's no reason why a nurse in Cornwall or Cumbria should earn the same as one in London.
Supermarkets popular with single parents because of working tax credits. Where I live, the majority of PAYE jobs done by women are either seasonal, retail, caring, admin, or public service.
Most of the jobs in the private sector pay not that much above minimum wage. Those in the private sector that do pay better are shrinking (banking).
Jobs in supermarkets are quite highly prized, as they offer some flexibility on hours, and pay a pound or so above minimum. There's plenty of younger people with degrees and diplomas working at my local Sainsbury's.
For the majority, earning £20k a year would be considered a good wage. Very little chance of earning the national average.
A way out is to get into nursing or teaching, where £30k is achievable a couple of years after qualifying, with the promise of advancement and a decent pension. Applications for nursing courses are massively over-subscribed, many get turned down. I know a couple of ex-supermarket colleagues in their 30's who went through a lot of financial pain to get a nursing degree, because it was a way to get a more secure and better-paid job.
It might be different in London or wherever, but nursing or teaching is pretty much the only well-paid option out in the sticks.
I think the answer is to massively expand the number of courses, maybe at 2 levels as someone suggested earlier (shorter diploma-level, and the full degree, with the possibility of upgrading), and paying enough to attract the numbers required. This could mean paying a fair bit more in big cities, while maintaining or even reducing pay in the provinces.
There's no reason why a nurse in Cornwall or Cumbria should earn the same as one in London.
catweasle said:
Earthdweller said:
Bring back in house training
My Mrs went into nursing at 18, got a job as a student nurse at a hospital and lived for three years in the Nurses home.
Passed all her theory and practical exams and passed as a fully qualified RGN aged 21 with loads of practical experience and no legacy debt having worked throughout although being paid very little
I do think back to the future is the way, there’s far too much emphasis on degree qualifications to enter
The way things are going you’ll need a masters degree to be an Infantry soldier
I know someone that followed a very similar path to your Mrs that would agree with you.My Mrs went into nursing at 18, got a job as a student nurse at a hospital and lived for three years in the Nurses home.
Passed all her theory and practical exams and passed as a fully qualified RGN aged 21 with loads of practical experience and no legacy debt having worked throughout although being paid very little
I do think back to the future is the way, there’s far too much emphasis on degree qualifications to enter
The way things are going you’ll need a masters degree to be an Infantry soldier
Saw it as a vocation rather than a career and the money spent training and housing her all those years back was paid back in spades.
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