NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)

[Carrot]

roger.mellie said:

. Why do we not have a dental equivalent of specsavers?

Gob Express?

[markcoznottz]

Joey Deacon said:

LetsTryAgain said:

98elise said:

Of course it devalues the pound. No value has been created. If it didn't them you could just print everyone a sack of cash and it have no impact.

Just ask someone I know.

Had £120k in premium bonds in 1994.
Still has £120k in premium bonds in 2021...

Ouch, houses in my road were about £80K back in 1994, they are £550/600K now. He has gone from being able to buy 1.5 houses back in 1994 to having the 20% mortgage deposit now.

Going back on topic, can I just say as someone who has not had a pay rise for two years I would have been very happy to get 1% a year.

A lot of self employed people haven’t raised thier prices since 2009, notwithstanding the effect of inflation

[LetsTryAgain]

TVR1 said:

You are aware how Premium Bonds work, aren’t you? Unless you know how many cash prizes he’s won since 1994, your example is irrelevant.Besides, he’s £70k of that actually doing nothing as anything over £50k doesn’t get entered into the draws.

Everyone on PH always knows best don’t they?
I thought you’d mention the fact that until relatively recently you were only able to hold £30k.
However, he has a wife and two kids, who all had the £30k limit.

And yes, I know precisely how they work, (and I know what prizes he has had) as it’s my Dad who was daft enough to have his ‘wealth’ eroded away by QE.

So far from irrelevant, it’s very relevant indeed.

He was a very comfortable man for working class in 1994, no mortgage after the age of 40.
Now, as someone has kindly pointed out above, he’d barely be able to stick a deposit on a nice house if he had to .

[ant1973]

roger.mellie said:

shed driver said:

Nurse here (ducks for cover.)

I've been nursing for over 35 years - I retire in June at 55. I could have stayed on but two severe back injuries have left me in constant pain so it's time to go and find a new challenge.

I started when it was in-house training - I was paid a salary to be a student nurse. I've seen how nurse education has changed throughout the last third of a century. Is it better now? I'm not sure, nurses are expected to be a lot more than just "Dr's handmaidens."

I left a band 7 role (out of hours clinical manager) at one of the busiest district general hospitals in the North West. I went to a band 5 role and have been on the top of that pay band ever since. I've had a few pay rises - but for a few years I had nothing.

I have seen some of my colleagues absolutely broken by the demands of the pandemic. One of the hardest things was seeing people die alone without there families, it has profoundly affected me more than I would really like to think.

Do we deserve a pay rise? I think a hefty one off payment - and also give it to those of my colleagues who have died or become seriously ill during the last 12 months. A one off payment is possibly fairer - it's a one off cost rather than ongoing in perpetuity.

Pay and conditions will need to be addressed - other posters have alluded to unpaid overtime - it's a huge problem - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/15/nh... that's over 25,000 full time equivalent staff.

SD.

Good post, my wife's a nurse so I've been debating whether to comment on this thread.

I agree with those suggesting that pay rates should be set in response to demand. I think collective bargaining has created a problem in all public sector pay there though (and I say that as a bit of a lefty) as that adds to that problem due to regional cost of living differences and demand differences. But there's very little argument that nursing supply is not meeting nursing demand regardless of course oversubscription which is a separate but related failing.

For those questioning why nursing is now a degree, the cynic in me would say it's cost saving (which I've no issue with) done in a slightly deceitful way (which I do have a problem with). I agree that a nurse has many more responsibilities now than they had even in the very recent past. Some are probably thinking of HCAs when they think of what many nurses do. In many cases a nurse's role is now more akin to cheaper doctors rather than expensive health care assistants (my wife has had more specialist practice training than many of the doctors and consultants).

We should do the same with dentists. Don't get me started on why we all have to use an overpaid dentist when 90% of their work could be done with much less specialist training. Why do we not have a dental equivalent of specsavers?

I think part of the problem is that there is no market mechanism in the UK for establishing nursing pay. The NHS is the 800lb gorilla that sets the scene. Presumably wages would rise naturally but for the NHS?

I doubt that anyone really grudges front line staff better pay and conditions. However, it's part of the wider question of how do we value work? Would you do a care home worker's job for £10 an hour? Are they worth more? Undoubtedly, yes. Same for other workers, too. People are more willing to value "work" based on its subjective value rather than its economic utility. Well, until you ask them to pay for it....

[Murph7355]

roger.mellie said:

Good post, my wife's a nurse so I've been debating whether to comment on this thread.

I agree with those suggesting that pay rates should be set in response to demand. I think collective bargaining has created a problem in all public sector pay there though (and I say that as a bit of a lefty) as that adds to that problem due to regional cost of living differences and demand differences. But there's very little argument that nursing supply is not meeting nursing demand regardless of course oversubscription which is a separate but related failing.

For those questioning why nursing is now a degree, the cynic in me would say it's cost saving (which I've no issue with) done in a slightly deceitful way (which I do have a problem with). I agree that a nurse has many more responsibilities now than they had even in the very recent past. Some are probably thinking of HCAs when they think of what many nurses do. In many cases a nurse's role is now more akin to cheaper doctors rather than expensive health care assistants (my wife has had more specialist practice training than many of the doctors and consultants).

We should do the same with dentists. Don't get me started on why we all have to use an overpaid dentist when 90% of their work could be done with much less specialist training. Why do we not have a dental equivalent of specsavers?

Nursing's been degree oriented for decades. And looking at what they do (I have some close friends who are nurses, my sister is too) I think it's warranted and fits with the overall structure needed in the medical profession.

The problem with paying according to supply/demand curves is how it's funded. Without someone properly looking at scope, demand is all but infinite. And nobody wants to pay for it.

[TVR1]

LetsTryAgain said:

TVR1 said:

You are aware how Premium Bonds work, aren’t you? Unless you know how many cash prizes he’s won since 1994, your example is irrelevant.Besides, he’s £70k of that actually doing nothing as anything over £50k doesn’t get entered into the draws.

Everyone on PH always knows best don’t they?
I thought you’d mention the fact that until relatively recently you were only able to hold £30k.
However, he has a wife and two kids, who all had the £30k limit.

And yes, I know precisely how they work, (and I know what prizes he has had) as it’s my Dad who was daft enough to have his ‘wealth’ eroded away by QE.

So far from irrelevant, it’s very relevant indeed.

He was a very comfortable man for working class in 1994, no mortgage after the age of 40.
Now, as someone has kindly pointed out above, he’d barely be able to stick a deposit on a nice house if he had to .

It was £40k until a few years ago, now it’s £50. Besides, it’s not actually unknown that Premium bonds are not the best vehicle if you’re concerned about inflation.

[Sheepshanks]

roger.mellie said:

Some are probably thinking of HCAs when they think of what many nurses do. In many cases a nurse's role is now more akin to cheaper doctors rather than expensive health care assistants (my wife has had more specialist practice training than many of the doctors and consultants).

I was going to say that too - the traditional nurses role in now done by HCAs.

roger.mellie said:

We should do the same with dentists. Don't get me started on why we all have to use an overpaid dentist when 90% of their work could be done with much less specialist training. Why do we not have a dental equivalent of specsavers?

That's exactly what happens with hygienists at the practice we go to. They do all the donkey work, then a checkup with the dentist afterwards, couple of minutes chat and she spends literally a minute looking in my beautifully clean mouth.

[Biggy Stardust]

Welshbeef said:

You do know that full time hours at minimum wage from April is £19k near as dammit. So when you say a way out of school and a route to £20k after a couple of years... why not be a toilet cleaner full time you’ll get £19k.

He actually said £30k not £20k after a couple of years, plus there's job security, advancement & a generous pension to take into account. Compare properly or not at all.

[A Winner Is You]

Welshbeef said:

You do know that full time hours at minimum wage from April is £19k near as dammit. So when you say a way out of school and a route to £20k after a couple of years... why not be a toilet cleaner full time you’ll get £19k.

£8.20 from April, so that would be just over £17k for a 40 hour week.

[roger.mellie]

Carrot said:

roger.mellie said:

. Why do we not have a dental equivalent of specsavers?

Gob Express?

Toothsavers? . Although I don't think the likes of Tescos would be keen on having branches hosted on their larger store premises, all those pics on the wall of tooth decay close to the chocolate aisle would not go down too well!

[Carrot]

roger.mellie said:

Carrot said:

roger.mellie said:

. Why do we not have a dental equivalent of specsavers?

Gob Express?

Toothsavers? . Although I don't think the likes of Tescos would be keen on having branches hosted on their larger store premises, all those pics on the wall of tooth decay close to the chocolate aisle would not go down too well!

Special offer - tooth for one fillings...

[roger.mellie]

ant1973 said:

I think part of the problem is that there is no market mechanism in the UK for establishing nursing pay. The NHS is the 800lb gorilla that sets the scene. Presumably wages would rise naturally but for the NHS?

I doubt that anyone really grudges front line staff better pay and conditions. However, it's part of the wider question of how do we value work? Would you do a care home worker's job for £10 an hour? Are they worth more? Undoubtedly, yes. Same for other workers, too. People are more willing to value "work" based on its subjective value rather than its economic utility. Well, until you ask them to pay for it....

True, it's also hard to compare internationally as roles differ in different countries and averages don't take in the spread of how specialised the role may be. But when it's more free market driven such as in the US where health care is predominantly privatised the salaries do seem to be higher. However, countries like the UK & IRL also seem to have a net migration inwards when it comes to health care workers.

I remember at the start of the lockdowns many were expressing a view that it would cause some sort of reset on how we value the importance of certain roles. It's nice in theory but I suspect it will never happen in practice for the reasons you mention.

[T6 vanman]

Carrot said:

roger.mellie said:

Carrot said:

roger.mellie said:

. Why do we not have a dental equivalent of specsavers?

Gob Express?

Toothsavers? . Although I don't think the likes of Tescos would be keen on having branches hosted on their larger store premises, all those pics on the wall of tooth decay close to the chocolate aisle would not go down too well!

Special offer - tooth for one fillings...

If the queue was too long you could always buy a Highland Toffee instead

[roger.mellie]

Murph7355 said:

Nursing's been degree oriented for decades. And looking at what they do (I have some close friends who are nurses, my sister is too) I think it's warranted and fits with the overall structure needed in the medical profession.

The problem with paying according to supply/demand curves is how it's funded. Without someone properly looking at scope, demand is all but infinite. And nobody wants to pay for it.

Yip and that leads to some very complicated and emotive questions on which treatments should be provided for free on the NHS. In a finite funding model it can't do everything. But, being slightly flippant, if the principal that fat bds and skinny joggers get free knee surgery is accepted then we should fund the level of resources required .

I'm very open to looking at alternative funding models e.g. I've seen how health care works in UK, IRL, US, Japan, Canada and Finland through personal and familial experience. I don't like how the conversation always leads to assuming the UK would adopt a US model (which I'd never support), but there are good reasons for thinking that would be our government's preference.

[Gargamel]

TVR1 said:

LetsTryAgain said:

TVR1 said:

You are aware how Premium Bonds work, aren’t you? Unless you know how many cash prizes he’s won since 1994, your example is irrelevant.Besides, he’s £70k of that actually doing nothing as anything over £50k doesn’t get entered into the draws.

Everyone on PH always knows best don’t they?
I thought you’d mention the fact that until relatively recently you were only able to hold £30k.
However, he has a wife and two kids, who all had the £30k limit.

And yes, I know precisely how they work, (and I know what prizes he has had) as it’s my Dad who was daft enough to have his ‘wealth’ eroded away by QE.

So far from irrelevant, it’s very relevant indeed.

He was a very comfortable man for working class in 1994, no mortgage after the age of 40.
Now, as someone has kindly pointed out above, he’d barely be able to stick a deposit on a nice house if he had to .

It was £40k until a few years ago, now it’s £50. Besides, it’s not actually unknown that Premium bonds are not the best vehicle if you’re concerned about inflation.

This is a fantastic example of how PH loses itself in the detail, but totally misses the point !

The 120k was only brought up to illustrate how inflation and devaluing the pound through printing money and QE affects us all. This was in response to another accolyte of the magic money tree suggesting we just borrow the money to fund the pay increase.

[anonymous-user]

LetsTryAgain said:

He was a very comfortable man for working class in 1994, no mortgage after the age of 40.
Now, as someone has kindly pointed out above, he’d barely be able to stick a deposit on a nice house if he had to .

Unfortunately government policy punishes the prudent and rewards the risk taker. There is literally no point holding any cash reserves anymore, the way to get wealthy is to borrow as much as humanly possible and put it into property.

When the best return you can get is 0.5% it means you are receiving £41.66 a month on £100K

House prices went up 8% last year alone.

As you say, all QE does is inflate the price of assets, great for the wealthy who own them. The 5% government backed mortgage is also another great way for the government to inflate the wealth of those that own multiple properties.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 8th March 13:14

[TVR1]

Gargamel said:

TVR1 said:

LetsTryAgain said:

TVR1 said:

You are aware how Premium Bonds work, aren’t you? Unless you know how many cash prizes he’s won since 1994, your example is irrelevant.Besides, he’s £70k of that actually doing nothing as anything over £50k doesn’t get entered into the draws.

Everyone on PH always knows best don’t they?
I thought you’d mention the fact that until relatively recently you were only able to hold £30k.
However, he has a wife and two kids, who all had the £30k limit.

And yes, I know precisely how they work, (and I know what prizes he has had) as it’s my Dad who was daft enough to have his ‘wealth’ eroded away by QE.

So far from irrelevant, it’s very relevant indeed.

He was a very comfortable man for working class in 1994, no mortgage after the age of 40.
Now, as someone has kindly pointed out above, he’d barely be able to stick a deposit on a nice house if he had to .

It was £40k until a few years ago, now it’s £50. Besides, it’s not actually unknown that Premium bonds are not the best vehicle if you’re concerned about inflation.

This is a fantastic example of how PH loses itself in the detail, but totally misses the point !

The 120k was only brought up to illustrate how inflation and devaluing the pound through printing money and QE affects us all. This was in response to another accolyte of the magic money tree suggesting we just borrow the money to fund the pay increase.

Not really. It’s an example of what happens when you effectively leave £120k in cash, under the bed, for 30 odd years.

PB’s are probably a perfect example of ‘not what to do’ if you want to protect against inflation and QE.

It’s a gamble. Even the PB website tells you.

[anonymous-user]

TVR1 said:

Not really. It’s an example of what happens when you effectively leave £120k in cash, under the bed, for 30 odd years.

PB’s are probably a perfect example of ‘not what to do’ if you want to protect against inflation and QE.

It’s a gamble. Even the PB website tells you.

Totally agree, I personally would only have enough cash in the bank to cover six months take home which I know I could easily stretch out to last me a year+

Anything more than that I would be putting into assets be that a house or even 1oz gold bars.

Sure it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling have six figures in the bank in cash but other than that you are losing money every month.

[Murph7355]

roger.mellie said:

Yip and that leads to some very complicated and emotive questions on which treatments should be provided for free on the NHS. In a finite funding model it can't do everything. But, being slightly flippant, if the principal that fat bds and skinny joggers get free knee surgery is accepted then we should fund the level of resources required .

I'm very open to looking at alternative funding models e.g. I've seen how health care works in UK, IRL, US, Japan, Canada and Finland through personal and familial experience. I don't like how the conversation always leads to assuming the UK would adopt a US model (which I'd never support), but there are good reasons for thinking that would be our government's preference.

Different topic really, but I don't "accept" the principle of fat b*stards / skinny joggers. I think some very tough decisions need to be made. But unfortunately don't think they ever will be.

Funding models - agree with you that we should look at all options. I am not sure I agree on any pre-ordained view that this government might have.

What I' really like to see happen is a proper cross-party working group put together to look at the options for funding.

In terms of priorities/scope, I would then leave that to medical professionals. "You have £10bn and not a penny more for the next 5/10/15yrs. Decide what you prioritise the spend on with the only caveats being the treatments be open for everyone. And if medical data suggests postcode nuances are needed then it's one in, one out". Anything not on the list to be covered privately or not at all.

[roger.mellie]

Joey Deacon said:

TVR1 said:

Not really. It’s an example of what happens when you effectively leave £120k in cash, under the bed, for 30 odd years.

PB’s are probably a perfect example of ‘not what to do’ if you want to protect against inflation and QE.

It’s a gamble. Even the PB website tells you.

Totally agree, I personally would only have enough cash in the bank to cover six months take home which I know I could easily stretch out to last me a year+

Anything more than that I would be putting into assets be that a house or even 1oz gold bars.

Sure it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling have six figures in the bank in cash but other than that you are losing money every month.

There are some other valid reasons for excess cash. Holding "six figs" as cash since you've plans to spend it in the next 6-12 months. I find myself in that position. We've much more in cash savings than we'd like to have (nice problem to have), but it'll be put towards a very significant house move if all goes to plan once things get back to normal. Aggressive overpaying on the current mortgage is also another tactic we're using even though in theory that doesn't make sense given long term interest rates. After the move any excess we've over-saved will be pushed back into some other asset class. Not BTL, been there done that, don't want the t-shirt or the hassle .