No evidence the UK is institutionally racist
Discussion
Misanthrope said:
Murph7355 said:
Farage is similar to BLM. The choice of language and imagery is very, very deliberately provocative. Full of plausible deniability. Both sides of the coin think it's the only way to make themselves heard. There's an argument to suggest they may be right in the short term. The problem is neither side are then willing to dial back the rhetoric when things move in the direction they want. They have to keep pushing hard and, IMO, the ultimate objective (equality) is lost. It then starts to be very counterproductive.
Why do you think the objective is equality? In reality, nobody wants equality - they want preferential treatment for themselves and whatever group they advocate for.The problem to me is that people are getting a sense of connection and oneness from these polarising issues not from family and friends or some other more healthy unit, like maybe people did in the old days.
These issues (which are just thoughts and feelings stoked up by social media on smart phones etc) are replacing real connections with people. It’s like religious fanaticism, where people are being guided by an out of sorts identity with something intangible rather than a real connection with other people.
Although it’s kind of natural in the sense that everyone wants to be connected to others and part of a tribe, when the tribes are entirely artificial and based on issues rather than actual tribes where people are coexisting and living by cooperation and collectivism it’s all going wrong.
Our well-being out to come from real things like helping each other and spending time with loved ones not identifying with political dogma or identity politics which are completely artificial constructs and often just polarising in nature.
I think we have got it pretty good in the UK relatively speaking.
Yes there is probably institutional racism in places but as mentioned by another poster there are 'nuances' and different sub-ethnic groups have varied experiences.
Generally speaking I think the UK is fairly tolerant and forward-thinking from a diversity perspective but it doesn't mean there aren't barriers/ceilings in certain professions where it might be the 'old boys club' setup but overall we have come a long way or at least I would like to believe.
For context I am 2nd gen Asian born in the UK but I don't speak for all 2nd gen of immigrant origin...there are very different views out there and some of it was likely pre-programmed from our parents experiences/perspective.
Yes there is probably institutional racism in places but as mentioned by another poster there are 'nuances' and different sub-ethnic groups have varied experiences.
Generally speaking I think the UK is fairly tolerant and forward-thinking from a diversity perspective but it doesn't mean there aren't barriers/ceilings in certain professions where it might be the 'old boys club' setup but overall we have come a long way or at least I would like to believe.
For context I am 2nd gen Asian born in the UK but I don't speak for all 2nd gen of immigrant origin...there are very different views out there and some of it was likely pre-programmed from our parents experiences/perspective.
Edited by VR99 on Wednesday 31st March 12:04
JeffreyD said:
When did it become a thing to allow people to talk about a report before it's been published?
Feels like the narrative is being managed here.
an extremely prescient point.Feels like the narrative is being managed here.
It's almost like the report hasn't come to the 'right' conclusion, so it is being holed below the waterline in advance...
El stovey said:
Isn’t it possible that neither party, nor their leaders (even corbyn) are actually ‘racist parties’ or institutionally racist but the issue is that race gets politicised and weaponised. I expect if the greens or libdems were more of a threat, they’d be smeared with racist accusations too.
Boris has said some things which are a bit racist and Corbyn wasn’t quick enough to respond to accusations of racism but I don’t think the U.K. main parties are obviously racist.
Farage on the other hand seems more racist or certainly xenophobic in the way that he uses imagery and speeches to stoke up fear about foreigners arriving.
It’s likely most people have all kinds of different levels of -ism going on to varying extents but nobody thinks we’re racist ourselves though and it’s likely all about where we see ourselves and others on the “racist scale”. Farage probably looks at the BNP or EDL etc and says they’re the racists.
It’s impossible for everyone to remove every bit of or prejudices, so when does it become a problem? Id say that in Britain chances and opportunities exist for everyone, the kind of ‘institutional racism’ people are arguing about nowadays is pretty hard to quantify or do much about and we’re likely reaching a point where the overt search for racism is becoming a problem itself and issues (based on thoughts and feelings) are being overblown and politicised instead of actual problems.
Like the report says, outcomes are likely more to do with income and socio economic issues than race. There’s poor outcomes for white people too based on their parents or where they’re born. As said above, white working class boys are having poor outcomes but that’s not seen as race related.
I don't think Boris is racist and Labour have had appalling problems with anti-semitism.Boris has said some things which are a bit racist and Corbyn wasn’t quick enough to respond to accusations of racism but I don’t think the U.K. main parties are obviously racist.
Farage on the other hand seems more racist or certainly xenophobic in the way that he uses imagery and speeches to stoke up fear about foreigners arriving.
It’s likely most people have all kinds of different levels of -ism going on to varying extents but nobody thinks we’re racist ourselves though and it’s likely all about where we see ourselves and others on the “racist scale”. Farage probably looks at the BNP or EDL etc and says they’re the racists.
It’s impossible for everyone to remove every bit of or prejudices, so when does it become a problem? Id say that in Britain chances and opportunities exist for everyone, the kind of ‘institutional racism’ people are arguing about nowadays is pretty hard to quantify or do much about and we’re likely reaching a point where the overt search for racism is becoming a problem itself and issues (based on thoughts and feelings) are being overblown and politicised instead of actual problems.
Like the report says, outcomes are likely more to do with income and socio economic issues than race. There’s poor outcomes for white people too based on their parents or where they’re born. As said above, white working class boys are having poor outcomes but that’s not seen as race related.
It's that old thing about language matters and the leader sets the tone.
They may not be racist parties or institutions or racist individuals but if you're black or Muslim or Jewish and you hear our Prime Minister say those things and the Leader of the Opposition presiding over those things and those are the two choices you face at the voting station are you going to feel represented when either you've got to choose between them if you want your vote to count for anything or when you see other people voting for it.
Greg_D said:
an extremely prescient point.
It's almost like the report hasn't come to the 'right' conclusion, so it is being holed below the waterline in advance...
From the conclusions discussed so far it seems that people on both sides will have to accept we are a model for racial integration and multi culturalism.It's almost like the report hasn't come to the 'right' conclusion, so it is being holed below the waterline in advance...
That's going to be confusing for many.
Have a day with me on a social housing estate. Or deal with people wanting social housing. Racism is rife. I’ll hear “ I’m not racist but...” daily in the normal world. Of course it’s not just skin tone, it’s to Eastern European’s, southerners, gay people, it’s endless.
I firmly believe the brexit vote was a yes because the great unwashed non voters did actually vote. Voting UKIP became the non racist go to party for the bnp voters. It was acceptable suddenly.
I firmly believe the brexit vote was a yes because the great unwashed non voters did actually vote. Voting UKIP became the non racist go to party for the bnp voters. It was acceptable suddenly.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: Not sure how you would show a nation to institutionally racist?
We saw things like the Macpherson report which wasn't all that long ago which suggested some issues in some areas.
You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.
"letterboxes"
"bank robbers"
"picanninies with watermelon smiles"
Can't think why anyone might have the impression there's a problem
I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.
Watching your whole reason for posting on PH going up in smoke... Priceless. We saw things like the Macpherson report which wasn't all that long ago which suggested some issues in some areas.
You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.
"letterboxes"
"bank robbers"
"picanninies with watermelon smiles"
Can't think why anyone might have the impression there's a problem
I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.
JeffreyD said:
Greg_D said:
an extremely prescient point.
It's almost like the report hasn't come to the 'right' conclusion, so it is being holed below the waterline in advance...
From the conclusions discussed so far it seems that people on both sides will have to accept we are a model for racial integration and multi culturalism.It's almost like the report hasn't come to the 'right' conclusion, so it is being holed below the waterline in advance...
That's going to be confusing for many.
A) The U.K. isn’t suffering from institutional racism.
and
B) Multiculturalism works and is a huge success.
Everyone happy or nobody happy?
austinsmirk said:
Have a day with me on a social housing estate. Or deal with people wanting social housing. Racism is rife. I’ll hear “ I’m not racist but...” daily in the normal world. Of course it’s not just skin tone, it’s to Eastern European’s, southerners, gay people, it’s endless.
I firmly believe the brexit vote was a yes because the great unwashed non voters did actually vote. Voting UKIP became the non racist go to party for the bnp voters. It was acceptable suddenly.
I used to have this view, but it comes down to the line of work you're in. Unfortunately you deal with the lowest common denominator. When/if you leave your line of work you'll discover that as a whole we are very tolerant and diverse in this country. I firmly believe the brexit vote was a yes because the great unwashed non voters did actually vote. Voting UKIP became the non racist go to party for the bnp voters. It was acceptable suddenly.
Try travelling to a few Eastern European countries and you'll see why.
El stovey said:
That’s exactly what we need, a report that says.
A) The U.K. isn’t suffering from institutional racism.
and
B) Multiculturalism works and is a huge success.
Everyone happy or nobody happy?
People will just pick the line that suits.A) The U.K. isn’t suffering from institutional racism.
and
B) Multiculturalism works and is a huge success.
Everyone happy or nobody happy?
My gut feel is this will be seriously easy to discredit so they are just getting ahead of the news curve.
JeffreyD said:
People will just pick the line that suits.
My gut feel is this will be seriously easy to discredit so they are just getting ahead of the news curve.
well noone wants to hear 'it will be difficult, but you can improve your outcomes if you work hard enough, put yourself out and study hard....'My gut feel is this will be seriously easy to discredit so they are just getting ahead of the news curve.
not when there is a nice easy 'white privilege' strawman to beat with the self-richeous stick.
It's like some people simply don't want to move on...
I look forward to reading the report.
However, as long as Critical Race Theory is driving the counter-narrative, we will never be able to have an equitable and productive discussion on the issue of race. Ever.
No matter how thorough and conclusive a study shows the UK to not be an institutionally racist country, the race grifters like Kahinde Andrews will never be happy with it unless it conforms 100% to his narrative.
I can't help thinking that all this recreational race outrage does is play into the hands of the far-right.
'Look, see, we told you so. All these people want to throw shade on you because you are white. Join us.'
However, as long as Critical Race Theory is driving the counter-narrative, we will never be able to have an equitable and productive discussion on the issue of race. Ever.
No matter how thorough and conclusive a study shows the UK to not be an institutionally racist country, the race grifters like Kahinde Andrews will never be happy with it unless it conforms 100% to his narrative.
I can't help thinking that all this recreational race outrage does is play into the hands of the far-right.
'Look, see, we told you so. All these people want to throw shade on you because you are white. Join us.'
Rob_R said:
I can't help thinking that all this recreational race outrage does is play into the hands of the far-right.
Nice phrase. I think it plays into the hands of both ends of political extremes on race though (without getting bogged down whether far left= BLM, because it isn't that simple)It would also be interesting to see a study on causation rather than correlation (Which someone else coined earlier on). It's stupid to try and fix things without understanding what is actually not working.
Vanden Saab said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Not sure how you would show a nation to institutionally racist?
We saw things like the Macpherson report which wasn't all that long ago which suggested some issues in some areas.
You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.
"letterboxes"
"bank robbers"
"picanninies with watermelon smiles"
Can't think why anyone might have the impression there's a problem
I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.
Watching your whole reason for posting on PH going up in smoke... Priceless. We saw things like the Macpherson report which wasn't all that long ago which suggested some issues in some areas.
You also have the Prime Minister using terms such as.
"letterboxes"
"bank robbers"
"picanninies with watermelon smiles"
Can't think why anyone might have the impression there's a problem
I don't think we are as a nation but there's certainly work to do.
No doubt he'll find something else to get triggered about!Quite why the words of a moronic PM relates to the rest of the population being racist is beyond me...?
Richtea1970 said:
I used to have this view, but it comes down to the line of work you're in. Unfortunately you deal with the lowest common denominator. When/if you leave your line of work you'll discover that as a whole we are very tolerant and diverse in this country.
Try travelling to a few Eastern European countries and you'll see why.
Thing is, both points can be true. Try travelling to a few Eastern European countries and you'll see why.
It's near-impossible to prove (or disprove) the notion that the UK is an 'institutionally racist' country. It certainly has racist people, racist organisations and racist institutions in it, and there are people, organisations and institutions which behave in a racist manner in some way but are not systemically racist.
BUT
I think the report is absolutely right that the UK is one of the best (probably the best in many ways) Western nations when it comes to matters of race. I can think of a couple of other European countries which do much more tangible and deep-rooted work at a governmental/insitutional level to root out and eliminate racism but which have much more of it on regular display in everyday life, where I'd cautiously say the UK is probably more leaning the other way round. But, while nowhere is close to being perfect and there's a huge amount of progress still to make (and it's by no means an irreversible ratchet - it can go back and efforts need to always be made to stop things doing so), the UK is one of the best. I wouldn't go as far as to declare it a model for others to follow as the report does, which implies we have reached some sort of perfect end state, but as an example of what direction to go in it certainly is.
amgmcqueen said:
No doubt he'll find something else to get triggered about!Quite why the words of a moronic PM relates to the rest of the population being racist is beyond me...?
Do you think it's the job of a Prime Minister to set the tone for the nation?
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