No evidence the UK is institutionally racist
Discussion
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: ...
I've literally read people on here say they looked less favourably on applications from people with Muslim sounding names because they expect they'll be awkward and want special treatment around prayers etc.
And you extrapolate that to mean it's rife maybe? Oh dear BS.I've literally read people on here say they looked less favourably on applications from people with Muslim sounding names because they expect they'll be awkward and want special treatment around prayers etc.
Every large organisation I've seen goes to great lengths to avoid any accusation of bias/unfairness. There is no way, IMO, that a meaningful slice of the job market is subject to what you have literally read on here.
Murph7355 said:
And you extrapolate that to mean it's rife maybe? Oh dear BS.
Every large organisation I've seen goes to great lengths to avoid any accusation of bias/unfairness. There is no way, IMO, that a meaningful slice of the job market is subject to what you have literally read on here.
No I'm simply saying it happens.Every large organisation I've seen goes to great lengths to avoid any accusation of bias/unfairness. There is no way, IMO, that a meaningful slice of the job market is subject to what you have literally read on here.
Why do you think many companies have moved to anonymising applications?
To be clear it could be to help avoid a whole bunch of "isms" but there's a reason for that shift.
As writer Michael Shermer has pointed out, the phrase 'Institutional Racism' is now mostly bandied about when you want to hand-wave an institution as racist without any actual evidence or proof of actual racist actions.
It's the opposite of calling an individual racist, there you need evidence of something said or done, but for an institution to be racist you simply need fact-free hand-waving and aspersions.
It's the opposite of calling an individual racist, there you need evidence of something said or done, but for an institution to be racist you simply need fact-free hand-waving and aspersions.
bhstewie said:
This reminds me of the dailymashhstewie said:Occasionally funny, but often snidy, and of course remembering they get paid to take a situation to ridiculous extremes to try and wring humour from it.
I can't be arsed reading the report, but for those who have, does it have any sensible comparative data on different countries?
I think the UK is one of the least racist countries I've been to. A lot of people it seems agree with that. What would be interesting is evidence across countries as to how well the UK stands up.
I think the UK is one of the least racist countries I've been to. A lot of people it seems agree with that. What would be interesting is evidence across countries as to how well the UK stands up.
Murph7355 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: ...
I've literally read people on here say they looked less favourably on applications from people with Muslim sounding names because they expect they'll be awkward and want special treatment around prayers etc.
And you extrapolate that to mean it's rife maybe? Oh dear BS.I've literally read people on here say they looked less favourably on applications from people with Muslim sounding names because they expect they'll be awkward and want special treatment around prayers etc.
Every large organisation I've seen goes to great lengths to avoid any accusation of bias/unfairness. There is no way, IMO, that a meaningful slice of the job market is subject to what you have literally read on here.
Small and medium? I'm not so sure. A bloke at my rugby club who ran a fair-sized company, boasted of dismissing two gay blokes, not a couple, from his firm because it was a 'family business'. He thought he was right to do so.
I've seen overt racism in football clubs, in clubs, in dealings with otherwise respectable members of the public. I think they were overt with me because they thought all coppers were racists. My experience is that overt racism is generally seen by society as a whole as bad, but covertly, and in like-minded groups, it is overt.
I noticed a change in the years I was policing Brighton. There was overt homophobia everywhere with shopkeepers dealing with someone they assumed was gay, differently to others. After 20 years, the situation was remarkably different. The acceptance wasn't forced, wasn't for show and was matter-of-fact. I saw no difference in that time with regards anti-black racism.
My daughter had a black male friend who was also gay. He was a lovely bloke: generous with his time, and willing to go that extra mile for strangers as well as friends. He befriended my daughter when she was under a bit of pressure. My daughter said that certain places were closed to him, not overtly, but subtley, and worringly, but not because he was gay.
This report is a one conceived by the government. I know nothing about how it was run, or how the evidence was gathered. What I do know, though, is certain such official enquiries, ones I had a bit of inside knowledge about, came to politically cnventient conclusions despite the evidence presented to them, and one time they did not even hear certain evidence after a witness, who wanted to testify, was blocked. Her evidence was material. Others further down the pipeline were seen, but not her because what she said would have gone against the conclusion.
In another case, three police witnesses were shocked by the questions that were not asked of them in a public enquiry.
Do I believe the conclusions of this public enquriy? I tell you what, I believe what I know about three public enquiries and see no reason to believe this one was any different.
The report doesn't say there weren't any racists, it said there wasn't institutional racism, IE systematic barriers to achievement for people in specific races. EG, on the face of it the fact that schoolkids from an afro Caribbean background tend to do worse than white British kids could well be institutional racism, the fact that kids from an Asian backgrounds tend to do better than white British kids could also be. But when you look at the whole picture, you see that the white British kids do worse than those from black African backgrounds. So there's a lot of 'lived experience' pointing to a link between educational opportunities and race, but the overall facts don't point to race being the main factor..
Jasandjules said:
No, more nepotism than racism.
It may be more nepotism than racism, but even that statement implies racism.Especially if all your family and friends are white.
As the report is now published and more is known I suspect that we'll find the report is more balanced and that government have managed the news cycle to their advantage.
bhstewie said:
Predictable jumping up and down with glee here - to the surprise of absolutely no-one.....hstewie said:https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/eddie-mair/...
Somehow many are managing to skip past "But overt racism remains, it adds."
They could have done a whole chapter on PH and it's snackbar lampost cowerers.
Jasandjules said:
No, more nepotism than racism.
Probably true in the case of Nicholas Hamilton's exploits in the BTCC! I have the utmost sympathy for his health issues and admire him for taking part, but can't help thinking he wouldn't be on the grid without a bit of influence (and maybe finance) from his brother.
Isn't that discrimination though in favour of those with BAME backgrounds - or does it only work one way? As usual!
Murph7355 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: ...
I've literally read people on here say they looked less favourably on applications from people with Muslim sounding names because they expect they'll be awkward and want special treatment around prayers etc.
And you extrapolate that to mean it's rife maybe? Oh dear BS.I've literally read people on here say they looked less favourably on applications from people with Muslim sounding names because they expect they'll be awkward and want special treatment around prayers etc.
Every large organisation I've seen goes to great lengths to avoid any accusation of bias/unfairness. There is no way, IMO, that a meaningful slice of the job market is subject to what you have literally read on here.
They sent 3,200 job applications off, changing names of the applicants to reflect different ethnic groups.
While 24% of white British applicants received a call back from UK employers, only 15% of ethnic minority applicants did.
Compared to White British applicants, people of:
Pakistani heritage had to make 70% more applications
Nigerian and South Asian heritage 80% more applications
Middle Eastern and north African heritage 90% more applications
Similar studies have been carried out in the US, with much the same esults.
There was also a report from the US Sentencing Commision, which showed that, on average black males received 20% longer sentences than white males, even after taking into consideration prior criminal history - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.co... .
Not aware of similar studies for the UK, or claims that our sentencing is similarly uneven.
Mr Tidy said:
Probably true in the case of Nicholas Hamilton's exploits in the BTCC!
I have the utmost sympathy for his health issues and admire him for taking part, but can't help thinking he wouldn't be on the grid without a bit of influence (and maybe finance) from his brother.
Isn't that discrimination though in favour of those with BAME backgrounds - or does it only work one way? As usual!
Those with BAME backgrounds are considered to be victims of racism. As such, there is no possibility of BAME people holding racist views. Same logic applies to women - they cannot be sexist.I have the utmost sympathy for his health issues and admire him for taking part, but can't help thinking he wouldn't be on the grid without a bit of influence (and maybe finance) from his brother.
Isn't that discrimination though in favour of those with BAME backgrounds - or does it only work one way? As usual!
nb This interpretation is common in professional circles. It is not necessarily my own view.
My "takeaway" from what we know so far was to stop the use of BAME, now that really will annoy a small minority of people 
The current level of silly accusations being thrown around, in the UK at least, is creating more division in a country where there is pretty much no division at all.
TX.
The current level of silly accusations being thrown around, in the UK at least, is creating more division in a country where there is pretty much no division at all.
TX.
rscott said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/am...
They sent 3,200 job applications off, changing names of the applicants to reflect different ethnic groups.
While 24% of white British applicants received a call back from UK employers, only 15% of ethnic minority applicants did.
Compared to White British applicants, people of:
Pakistani heritage had to make 70% more applications
Nigerian and South Asian heritage 80% more applications
Middle Eastern and north African heritage 90% more applications
.
Where was the foreign sounding name without a race change as a control? They sent 3,200 job applications off, changing names of the applicants to reflect different ethnic groups.
While 24% of white British applicants received a call back from UK employers, only 15% of ethnic minority applicants did.
Compared to White British applicants, people of:
Pakistani heritage had to make 70% more applications
Nigerian and South Asian heritage 80% more applications
Middle Eastern and north African heritage 90% more applications
.
My surname is Czech - I get a lot more response to applications if I "accidentally" anglicize my name, and correct it at interview. Ta grandpa!
Nothing to do with race, all to do with "foreign".
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