Will the plan work to turn generation rent into buy?
Discussion
p1stonhead said:
ben_h100 said:
a311 said:
It's not just house prices, I've heard what those living down south have to pay in child care. My mother never worked when we were kids then went back as we got older part and then full time. My wife wanted to work post kids which is good, and she has a good education and is well qualified which has allowed her the choice of working part time for what most would class as a good full time equivalent salary. If she didn't work we'd still have a decent life style, probably less holidays and so on. We pay ~£5 and hour for childcare, and similar for after school clubs.
This is a huge issue. Not only will young people want to save to get on the housing ladder, but when they eventually manage to scrape together a deposit and get a mortgage and think about starting a family, they have exorbitant childcare costs to budget for. Considering that the mortgage is often sourced based upon 2 full time earners, then both have to work. I can see people putting off/not bothering having kids which is another issue we are storing up for the future.The big difference between my parents generation, and mine is most households had 1 bread winner while the mother didn't work. Lord knows what the housing situation will be when my kids come of age and are looking to get on the ladder.
InitialDave said:
Also, the "something something avocado on toast" guff is laughable at this point. An avocado is maybe £1. An entire loaf of bread is £2 even for the nice multiseeded stuff.
The 'too much avocado on toast' (or Netflix or Sky etc) argument is particularly laughable when you consider that back in the 80s/90s everyday items such as appliances (TV/fridge/cooker/PC etc) were (relatively) far more expensive, clothes also before fast/cheap fashion.InitialDave said:
Biggy Stardust said:
The option of working hard & making sacrifices is available to all.
The rewards for doing so may not be.Your logic is, you saved £15k by working hard and sacrificing. Therefore, anyone who works hard and sacrifices can save £15k. Anyone who has not managed to save £15k clearly has not worked hard or sacrificed.
This is b
ks. Some people can save tens of thousands while being lazy, feckless arses. Some people bust themselves raw every day just to cover their basic outgoings. Also, the "something something avocado on toast" guff is laughable at this point. An avocado is maybe £1. An entire loaf of bread is £2 even for the nice multiseeded stuff.
The majority of people who I know who 'can't afford to buy' are looking at houses ready to move in, I get it may be different where you are.
I have bought hovels in places I wouldn't wish to live in order to gain a home, moved a decent distance from work, though as I usually work in factories it has not been too far.
First kitchen I fitted was a serious clusterf
k, cocked up on so many levels, I dispute that there are no properties available to those with the will and energy to attain them.Regardless of what you earn, there are properties available and within the means of a single bloke on minimum wage.
I’d argue the other way and say £15K is a big, big ask even with sensible finances. That’s about half the average UK salary. After tax, pension, and then c. 50% going on rent, and then bills, food, fuel etc, that’ll a good few years of scrimping and scraping. By which time prices have crept up again and a bigger deposit is needed. And so it goes on.
Edited by Jimbo. on Friday 16th April 22:03
Jimbo. said:
I’d argue the other way and say £15K is a big, big ask even with sensible finances. That’s about half the average UK salary. After tax, pension, and then c. 50% going on rent, and then bills, food, fuel etc, that’ll a good few years of scrimping and scraping. By which time prices have crept up again and a bigger deposit is needed. And so it goes on.
Yes. And it's also the idea that it's perfectly reasonable to expect everyone to move across the country, find a job, then find a hovel officially classified as 'uninhabitable' that's an hour away from that job and spend a year sleeping on a camp bed, cooking on a Trangia and relying on the goodwill of their new neighbours for an occasional shower in order to buy a house at a reasonable price in relation to a reasonable wage. And if people don't fancy this, their motivation, priorities and willpower get called into question.If people want to do up hovels they buy for a bargains, all the more power to them. But if that's the standard we're setting ourselves as a society then clearly something's very, very wrong. It shouldn't be unreasonable to expect a couple (or even a single person) on the average salary to be able to buy (let's be pedantic, get a mortage on...) a house at the average price that doesn't require massive repairs and renovation or virtually living like a squatter. It shouldn't even be that remarkable to be able to do so without forgoing every other expense, hobby, interest, socialisation or pleasure.
My parents managed it in the 1980s. They bought a perfectly reasonable 1930s suburban semi on one professional's wage and started a family. Yes, Dad had to sell one of his cars and they missed out on a couple of the annual skiing trips with their friends or going up to the West End and some other pleasures they had become accustomed to, but they didn't become hermits or Benedictine monks to do so.
stitched said:
I do get this, however if you think a £15k deposit is beyond your means then I also think a look at your finances might be sensible.
I'm absolutely fine. I bought a house years ago. I've been quite fortunate in many ways in my life, and while I don't feel any guilt about it whatsoever, I do recognise that for many people who don't get the same breaks it's going to be bloody hard work to do the same, no matter how old their phone or how low their avocado consumption.Jimbo. said:
I’d argue the other way and say £15K is a big, big ask even with sensible finances. That’s about half the average UK salary. After tax, pension, and then c. 50% going on rent, and then bills, food, fuel etc, that’ll a good few years of scrimping and scraping. By which time prices have crept up again and a bigger deposit is needed. And so it goes on.
I'd have to disagree, I think a modest house, outside London is attainable.Edited by Jimbo. on Friday 16th April 22:03
Finding a property is not IME easy, still think I could manage it on minimum wage.
I do however think the building regs stopping you from renovating, doing most of the work yourself, a bigger barrier than prices.
stitched said:
Jimbo. said:
I’d argue the other way and say £15K is a big, big ask even with sensible finances. That’s about half the average UK salary. After tax, pension, and then c. 50% going on rent, and then bills, food, fuel etc, that’ll a good few years of scrimping and scraping. By which time prices have crept up again and a bigger deposit is needed. And so it goes on.
I'd have to disagree, I think a modest house, outside London is attainable.Edited by Jimbo. on Friday 16th April 22:03
Finding a property is not IME easy, still think I could manage it on minimum wage.
I do however think the building regs stopping you from renovating, doing most of the work yourself, a bigger barrier than prices.
2xChevrons said:
Jimbo. said:
I’d argue the other way and say £15K is a big, big ask even with sensible finances. That’s about half the average UK salary. After tax, pension, and then c. 50% going on rent, and then bills, food, fuel etc, that’ll a good few years of scrimping and scraping. By which time prices have crept up again and a bigger deposit is needed. And so it goes on.
Yes. And it's also the idea that it's perfectly reasonable to expect everyone to move across the country, find a job, then find a hovel officially classified as 'uninhabitable' that's an hour away from that job and spend a year sleeping on a camp bed, cooking on a Trangia and relying on the goodwill of their new neighbours for an occasional shower in order to buy a house at a reasonable price in relation to a reasonable wage. And if people don't fancy this, their motivation, priorities and willpower get called into question.If people want to do up hovels they buy for a bargains, all the more power to them. But if that's the standard we're setting ourselves as a society then clearly something's very, very wrong. It shouldn't be unreasonable to expect a couple (or even a single person) on the average salary to be able to buy (let's be pedantic, get a mortage on...) a house at the average price that doesn't require massive repairs and renovation or virtually living like a squatter. It shouldn't even be that remarkable to be able to do so without forgoing every other expense, hobby, interest, socialisation or pleasure.
My parents managed it in the 1980s. They bought a perfectly reasonable 1930s suburban semi on one professional's wage and started a family. Yes, Dad had to sell one of his cars and they missed out on a couple of the annual skiing trips with their friends or going up to the West End and some other pleasures they had become accustomed to, but they didn't become hermits or Benedictine monks to do so.
Just pointing out that it could be done 20 years ago, I know because I did it.
That it could be done 3 years ago, as above.
It requires willpower and sacrifice, and I in no way denigrate the skills I learned first time around.
Owning a house is not a right, I still say it is attainable in the current market.
stitched said:
I wasn't suggesting any of the above.
Just pointing out that it could be done 20 years ago, I know because I did it.
That it could be done 3 years ago, as above.
It requires willpower and sacrifice, and I in no way denigrate the skills I learned first time around.
Owning a house is not a right, I still say it is attainable in the current market.
20 years ago things were VERY different, as you well know. If wages had kept pace with house prices and lending criteria, supply of houses etc remained the same, perhaps it could be done as easily as 20 years ago. But that’s not what’s happened.Just pointing out that it could be done 20 years ago, I know because I did it.
That it could be done 3 years ago, as above.
It requires willpower and sacrifice, and I in no way denigrate the skills I learned first time around.
Owning a house is not a right, I still say it is attainable in the current market.
Jimbo. said:
stitched said:
I wasn't suggesting any of the above.
Just pointing out that it could be done 20 years ago, I know because I did it.
That it could be done 3 years ago, as above.
It requires willpower and sacrifice, and I in no way denigrate the skills I learned first time around.
Owning a house is not a right, I still say it is attainable in the current market.
20 years ago things were VERY different, as you well know. If wages had kept pace with house prices and lending criteria, supply of houses etc remained the same, perhaps it could be done as easily as 20 years ago. But that’s not what’s happened.Just pointing out that it could be done 20 years ago, I know because I did it.
That it could be done 3 years ago, as above.
It requires willpower and sacrifice, and I in no way denigrate the skills I learned first time around.
Owning a house is not a right, I still say it is attainable in the current market.
In the eighties a swathe of people found themselves with expensive mortgages and properties worth less than half what they had paid for them, interest rates hit 17 or so percent, hard working couples lost every penny of their deposit and their property.
I do not think times harder now than then.
stitched said:
I don't know how old you are, care to illuminate?
In the eighties a swathe of people found themselves with expensive mortgages and properties worth less than half what they had paid for them, interest rates hit 17 or so percent, hard working couples lost every penny of their deposit and their property.
I do not think times harder now than then.
Back then...In the eighties a swathe of people found themselves with expensive mortgages and properties worth less than half what they had paid for them, interest rates hit 17 or so percent, hard working couples lost every penny of their deposit and their property.
I do not think times harder now than then.
Low house price ratio compared to salaries
High interest rates
High wage increases
Now...
High house price ratio compared to salaries
Low interest rates
Low wage increases
romeogolf said:
Okay, let's turn this around. At what point, how many multiples of the average pay, would it take for you to accept that house prices have outstripped the average person's ability to buy one?
I don't know, but people willing to make the efforts & sacrifices still seem to buy houses so we ain't there yet.Nico Adie said:
I'm 37. I bought my first flat (1 bed, repossession, no boiler, leaky roof but within 25 minutes of Edinburgh) in 2011 for £51k, and paid a 5% deposit. Salary at the time was £19k a year. Spent the best part of a year fixing the bits that I could and paying for the bits that I couldn't on a credit card. The interest rate on the mortgage was 6.7%, I took a 2 year fixed term. After the 2 years I remortgaged at (I think) 4.1%, again 2 year fixed, but I overpaid so that I was still paying the same monthly payment as I was before. After those 2 years I remortgaged again, again 2 year fixed, this time 3.4%, still paying the same as initially via overpayment. I sold in March 2017 for £74k and made approx £37k profit. Paid off the credit card, then bought a 3 bed ex-council semi for £105k. Then got married. Sold that one for £125k last year. Current house (3 bed, C-listed sandstone bungalow built in 1874) cost £240k which I wouldn't have been able to afford on my own but my wife and I's combined salaries could comfortably afford. Deposit was essentially all dealt and paid for with the money made from my first property.
It's really not difficult in anywhere other than the SE/London, and if I lived there and wanted my own property then I'd just move.
ETA - I went 2 years without broadband and central heating because I couldn't afford them, and got them when I could afford them. I still managed to go on holiday during that time and ran a 2002 Honda Civic 1.6 Executive.
Sounds horrendous It's really not difficult in anywhere other than the SE/London, and if I lived there and wanted my own property then I'd just move.
ETA - I went 2 years without broadband and central heating because I couldn't afford them, and got them when I could afford them. I still managed to go on holiday during that time and ran a 2002 Honda Civic 1.6 Executive.
Edited by Nico Adie on Friday 16th April 16:31
mikewilliams79 said:
Nico Adie said:
I'm 37. I bought my first flat (1 bed, repossession, no boiler, leaky roof but within 25 minutes of Edinburgh) in 2011 for £51k, and paid a 5% deposit. Salary at the time was £19k a year. Spent the best part of a year fixing the bits that I could and paying for the bits that I couldn't on a credit card. The interest rate on the mortgage was 6.7%, I took a 2 year fixed term. After the 2 years I remortgaged at (I think) 4.1%, again 2 year fixed, but I overpaid so that I was still paying the same monthly payment as I was before. After those 2 years I remortgaged again, again 2 year fixed, this time 3.4%, still paying the same as initially via overpayment. I sold in March 2017 for £74k and made approx £37k profit. Paid off the credit card, then bought a 3 bed ex-council semi for £105k. Then got married. Sold that one for £125k last year. Current house (3 bed, C-listed sandstone bungalow built in 1874) cost £240k which I wouldn't have been able to afford on my own but my wife and I's combined salaries could comfortably afford. Deposit was essentially all dealt and paid for with the money made from my first property.
It's really not difficult in anywhere other than the SE/London, and if I lived there and wanted my own property then I'd just move.
ETA - I went 2 years without broadband and central heating because I couldn't afford them, and got them when I could afford them. I still managed to go on holiday during that time and ran a 2002 Honda Civic 1.6 Executive.
Sounds horrendous It's really not difficult in anywhere other than the SE/London, and if I lived there and wanted my own property then I'd just move.
ETA - I went 2 years without broadband and central heating because I couldn't afford them, and got them when I could afford them. I still managed to go on holiday during that time and ran a 2002 Honda Civic 1.6 Executive.
Edited by Nico Adie on Friday 16th April 16:31
The were renting when her mother died, no siblings and she inherited a reasonable semi in a nice area, mortgage free.
Instead of saving, they had been 'saving a deposit' for several years, they took out a mortgage for a totally unnecessary full refit, outside as well.
I recall 3 foreign holidays that year.
Now struggling to pay a large mortgage and several credit cards, house is on the market to clear their debt and they plan on renting again.
Any equity left in the property, should it sell as refit was appallingly poor, it will get spunked up the wall.
I agree it can be hard work getting on the ladder but some just shouldn't be in charge of their own finances.
Biggy Stardust said:
romeogolf said:
Okay, let's turn this around. At what point, how many multiples of the average pay, would it take for you to accept that house prices have outstripped the average person's ability to buy one?
I don't know, but people willing to make the efforts & sacrifices still seem to buy houses so we ain't there yet.Your lived experience differs hugely from the average person. As has been pointed out, the average person does not have time - never mind the skills - to buy a derelict house and refurbish it themselves. As has also been pointed out, the sacrifices you've listed are not enough for the average person to save a reasonable deposit in a reasonable length of time. I also don't think it's reasonable for the average person to live without broadband and central heating just to put a roof over their head and would suggest that most people here would agree.
The broad majority of first-time buyers get their deposit through family help whether it's being able to live at a reduced rent under the family roof, through a gift, or through inheritance. That is an unsustainable system and further drives inequality.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff