Will the plan work to turn generation rent into buy?

[NRS]

Greg_D said:

I’m not sure what to say about that...

That’s got to be amongst the dumbest misrepresentations I have ever seen. That is absolutely not what I am saying, but you knew that, you’re just being wilfully circular in your position.

You know what they say, never argue with an idiot, they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience...

On that basis, I’m out. You just will not see reason and I have way better things to spend my time on than trying to play a game of twisty point with a bloody idiot...

It’s not. You’re just doing the selective choosing of what you consider ‘help’. As I’ve said I know people who have argued getting a car from the parents/taken on holidays etc is not help, for the same reasons you give.

Free accommodation is worth thousands a year... it can only be called help. Just because you think it’s ‘normal’ it doesn’t mean it’s not help...

Would my scholarship be counted as help? I would say it did, even though I ‘earned’ it through hard work too...

I’ve done well... probably ‘better’ than you by the sounds of things financially. However, unlike you I’m not turning a blind eye to others.

aston80 said:

Is a husband deemed to "help" his wife if she doesn't work?

Nope

Yes... my girlfriend uses those exact words... that she wouldn’t be able to buy now without my help...

[InitialDave]

aston80 said:

Is a husband deemed to "help" his wife if she doesn't work?

Nope

Is she claiming to have bought a house with no assistance?

[Electro1980]

NRS said:

Greg_D said:

I’m not sure what to say about that...

That’s got to be amongst the dumbest misrepresentations I have ever seen. That is absolutely not what I am saying, but you knew that, you’re just being wilfully circular in your position.

You know what they say, never argue with an idiot, they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience...

On that basis, I’m out. You just will not see reason and I have way better things to spend my time on than trying to play a game of twisty point with a bloody idiot...

It’s not. You’re just doing the selective choosing of what you consider ‘help’. As I’ve said I know people who have argued getting a car from the parents/taken on holidays etc is not help, for the same reasons you give.

Free accommodation is worth thousands a year... it can only be called help. Just because you think it’s ‘normal’ it doesn’t mean it’s not help...

Would my scholarship be counted as help? I would say it did, even though I ‘earned’ it through hard work too...

I’ve done well... probably ‘better’ than you by the sounds of things financially. However, unlike you I’m not turning a blind eye to others.

aston80 said:

Is a husband deemed to "help" his wife if she doesn't work?

Nope

Yes... my girlfriend uses those exact words... that she wouldn’t be able to buy now without my help...

We must not forget that the reason the question of parents help came up in the first place was claims that people should move to where there is better work and cheaper houses. The two are often mutually exclusive, so then there was talk of living with parents to afford a deposit. Being able to live with parents in an affluent area is most definitely help. Being stuck living with parents due to having a limited income due to lack of employment opportunities is a different question, and not one that is at question here.

[Electro1980]

aston80 said:

Is a husband deemed to "help" his wife if she doesn't work?

Nope

What an utterly irrelevant question.

[Biggy Stardust]

Ilovejapcrap said:

Biggy Stardust said:

Ilovejapcrap said:

Interesting read all this.

I don’t feel easy with BTL, I kinda feel it helps the rich get richer and keeps house prices high. Now I’ve not given this a huge amount of thought, I’m not saying I’m right . it’s just how I feel.

Would tax on BTL be a good thing ? If it didn’t exist will we have less rentable props for people ? I suppose house prices falling then affects those already on the ladder ?

What’s people’s view on stopping BTL ?

Do you honestly believe that BTL isn't taxed? Really?

Also if you stop BTL, where do you anticipate the tenants living?

What I meant is taxed higher, apologies I missed the word more. I actually mentioned less rentable housing for people in my query.

As stated in my comment it was just some loose thoughts I had for discussion.

Consider this:
Ireland really screwed landlords over, just like UK only considerably more so.
Landlords sold up in large numbers, just like many UK landlords are doing.
The shortage of decent rental places got to be a major problem, just like UK is starting to experience.
Ireland backtracked, assuring landlords that they would no longer be persecuted.

Do you think we should learn from this or do you think we should plough on regardless?

[stitched]

mikewilliams79 said:

stitched said:

I think anyone working a full week with only 13 hours rest deserves a house.
I have done 84 hour weeks, I doubt you have.
I took a chance and went self employed.
The one place we agree is that there should be housing provision for those less well paid who are essential.
I'd suggest something modelled on Port Sunlight but govt sponsored.

What point are you trying to make? Everyone can do what you did? Well, technically, they can't.

The point was really that anyone with the stamina to work 120 hours in a week, even on minimum wage, should have no issues buying houses.
It was a ridiculous statement and deserved calling out.
Not everyone will have the same opportunities or setbacks I have had, we are all different.
I didn't really get started on a settled life until I was 26, lifestyle slightly derailed by a girlfriend getting pregnant, yes I would have struggled a lot to manage a 10% deposit on a £150k house, yes the deposit was a lot less.
However I maintain my belief that I could, and would have managed it.
I will also state I had absolute and unfailing support from my mother, she couldn't help financially but that support was important to me and my sympathy for those who didn't have this shoulder, childminder and general encourager is absolute.
The financial and hard graft part was all me though.
Also I have changed my life several times, when the place I had a safe job as an maintenance engineer moved to Poland, right at the worst time for me to secure another job in a similar vein, I used my redundancy to qualify as a domestic electrical installer and rewired several houses.
Not liking that role, try it you'll see what I mean, I went self employed as an on call dairy process engineer, this was what I was doing when I had to make the role permanent in my current place, ironically if they had left me in the previous role I'd have paid off the mortgage this year, on the plus side I'm always at home now.
You need to look at what you really want from life and work out how to attain it.
In the grand scheme of multibillion corporations, and even individuals buying a small terrace is not really such a difficult target is it?
Oh, check the Port Sunlight reference, It is worth a look.
I think all employers should behave with such integrity, though he was vilified by Labour for trying to re establish a serfdom.
Lastly, why can't they?

[hotchy]

They should allow 100% mortgages for renters who have a record of rent for 2 years with no missed payments. Yes the interest will be higher than those without a deposit but it will still be less than they pay in rent. Ones with deposits should then get access to lower interest rates. Then nobody can complain they never got enough help etc etc.

[98elise]

Ilovejapcrap said:

Biggy Stardust said:

Ilovejapcrap said:

Interesting read all this.

I don’t feel easy with BTL, I kinda feel it helps the rich get richer and keeps house prices high. Now I’ve not given this a huge amount of thought, I’m not saying I’m right . it’s just how I feel.

Would tax on BTL be a good thing ? If it didn’t exist will we have less rentable props for people ? I suppose house prices falling then affects those already on the ladder ?

What’s people’s view on stopping BTL ?

Do you honestly believe that BTL isn't taxed? Really?

Also if you stop BTL, where do you anticipate the tenants living?

What I meant is taxed higher, apologies I missed the word more. I actually mentioned less rentable housing for people in my query.

As stated in my comment it was just some loose thoughts I had for discussion.

Its already subject to higher taxes than any other business. Businesses are taxed on the profits they make. Income - expenses = profit. Interest payments are a legitimate expense.

BTL landlords can't offset interest as an expense. This only applies to individuals owning BTL. Housing associations and companies that let property can still offset interest.

Its now possible to owe tax on a BTL when you've made no money!

[Greg_D]

hotchy said:

They should allow 100% mortgages for renters who have a record of rent for 2 years with no missed payments. Yes the interest will be higher than those without a deposit but it will still be less than they pay in rent. Ones with deposits should then get access to lower interest rates. Then nobody can complain they never got enough help etc etc.

That’s a good idea... you’d need some safeguards for lenders re negative equity, ie a guarantor or personal ongoing liability for a certain proportion of the value, as if it had been paid as deposit. It would essentially be an extended help to buy scheme. The worry is it would skyrocket prices again.

[austinsmirk]

It’d never work. How would you police it ? I work in social housing. Rents are tuppence. Seriously £72 a week for a one bed flat. About £85 to £120 a week for a house. No bonds. No deposits.

We write off £2.5 m a year in uncollected rent. I wouldn’t care but only 50% even have full/ part to pay. It’s accepted as the nature of the business you take these losses to help the most vulnerable

[moles]

Do any hobby btl landlords declare rent to hmrc?, I know none of my mates do or ever have

[mikewilliams79]

stitched said:

The point was really that anyone with the stamina to work 120 hours in a week, even on minimum wage, should have no issues buying houses.
It was a ridiculous statement and deserved calling out.
Not everyone will have the same opportunities or setbacks I have had, we are all different.
I didn't really get started on a settled life until I was 26, lifestyle slightly derailed by a girlfriend getting pregnant, yes I would have struggled a lot to manage a 10% deposit on a £150k house, yes the deposit was a lot less.
However I maintain my belief that I could, and would have managed it.
I will also state I had absolute and unfailing support from my mother, she couldn't help financially but that support was important to me and my sympathy for those who didn't have this shoulder, childminder and general encourager is absolute.
The financial and hard graft part was all me though.
Also I have changed my life several times, when the place I had a safe job as an maintenance engineer moved to Poland, right at the worst time for me to secure another job in a similar vein, I used my redundancy to qualify as a domestic electrical installer and rewired several houses.
Not liking that role, try it you'll see what I mean, I went self employed as an on call dairy process engineer, this was what I was doing when I had to make the role permanent in my current place, ironically if they had left me in the previous role I'd have paid off the mortgage this year, on the plus side I'm always at home now.
You need to look at what you really want from life and work out how to attain it.
In the grand scheme of multibillion corporations, and even individuals buying a small terrace is not really such a difficult target is it?
Oh, check the Port Sunlight reference, It is worth a look.
I think all employers should behave with such integrity, though he was vilified by Labour for trying to re establish a serfdom.
Lastly, why can't they?

Not all heros wear capes

[Biggy Stardust]

moles said:

Do any hobby btl landlords declare rent to hmrc?, I know none of my mates do or ever have

HMRC is pretty good on the subject of finding these things out & coming for taxes plus penalties.

[anonymous-user]

austinsmirk said:

It’d never work. How would you police it ? I work in social housing. Rents are tuppence. Seriously £72 a week for a one bed flat. About £85 to £120 a week for a house. No bonds. No deposits.

We write off £2.5 m a year in uncollected rent. I wouldn’t care but only 50% even have full/ part to pay. It’s accepted as the nature of the business you take these losses to help the most vulnerable

As someone else who has worked in social housing for many years, I can absolutely confirm the above, but also add that it isn't just the rental properties that fall into arrears and ultimately eviction.

I have witnessed many cases of people failing to pay the small rental amount on their Shared Ownership homes, and ultimately have lost their homes. These are homes that people have taken out mortgages on.

You can do everything you possibly can to advise people in the strongest possible terms that they are about to lose their rental property or shared ownership property due to their arrears situation, and the situation will not improve.

As Austinsmirk says, we are talking about significant numbers of people who can't even manage £80-100 a week and go on to lose their homes.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 19th April 10:25

[Bacon Is Proof]

stitched said:

The point was really that anyone with the stamina to work 120 hours in a week, even on minimum wage, should have no issues buying houses.
It was a ridiculous statement and deserved calling out.

100+ hour weeks are not that uncommon in care work (or hospitality for that matter), but they are unsustainable and the 120 hour example was given as the upper limit, not the typical amount worked that one could use to buy a house.
That would be a silly thing to say, only a dimwit would come to that conclusion.

Edited by Bacon Is Proof on Monday 19th April 12:29

[romeogolf]

A little bit off-topic here, but I wanted to respond a few posts further up to make things a little clearer as to why "working harder" isn't actually a solution.

p1stonhead said:

The whole boasting about how many hours you work compared to others is horrendous. It’s not something to be proud of. It’s an awful consequence of a st working environment and under resourcing.

In the care industry specifically, it's a consequence of a government policy which has reduced the available funding for adult social care. In real terms, on a per-adult basis, funding is almost 5% lower than it was a decade ago and even then we knew the system was under-funded and required help which was why the social care precept was added to council tax bills in 2015. [I am happy to be corrected here by those more knowledgeable, this isn't my field of expertise, but my basic understanding of the issues] Some further reading here: https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/bns/BN...

Greg_D said:

Impressive dedication, thank you for doing a difficult job. However, even at nmw that’s £1,100 for a few days work. That should make saving a deposit doable surely.

I believe the OP of this, AJM, was referring to overnight shifts. These aren't paid at minimum wage: https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2021/03/24/employe...

[mikewilliams79]

romeogolf said:

I believe the OP of this, AJM, was referring to overnight shifts. These aren't paid at minimum wage: https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2021/03/24/employe...

Exactly
What our resident all work no play hero is suggesting is utter rubbish. Not all opportunities are available to everyone and often If they are at a significant personal cost

[austinsmirk]

Lord Marylebone said:

austinsmirk said:

It’d never work. How would you police it ? I work in social housing. Rents are tuppence. Seriously £72 a week for a one bed flat. About £85 to £120 a week for a house. No bonds. No deposits.

We write off £2.5 m a year in uncollected rent. I wouldn’t care but only 50% even have full/ part to pay. It’s accepted as the nature of the business you take these losses to help the most vulnerable

As someone else who has worked in social housing for many years, I can absolutely confirm the above, but also add that it isn't just the rental properties that fall into arrears and ultimately eviction.

I have witnessed many cases of people failing to pay the small rental amount on their Shared Ownership homes, and ultimately have lost their homes. These are homes that people have taken out mortgages on.

You can do everything you possibly can to advise people in the strongest possible terms that they are about to lose their rental property or shared ownership property due to their arrears situation, and the situation will not improve.

As Austinsmirk says, we are talking about significant numbers of people who can't even manage £80-100 a week and go on to lose their homes.

Edited by Lord Marylebone on Monday 19th April 10:25

just to expand on this our sector is rigorous when it comes to debt enforcement. and its not a case of letting people get away with it- there are massive income teams helping and assisting people get what they are due income wise, help them budget, help with advise on best energy deals.............you can get attachments from their benefits to clear debt off..

don't forget this is all interest free- unlike when you bounce on your mortgage payment.

I used to run the cities homeless services for years: I've seen it from the other end of people losing their homes. A very common thing that used to occur was people buying their "council" house- obviously discounted. they'd get all sorts of shady mortgages to do so, managing to prove income. you'd look at people who utterly failed to pay promptly and on time, forever, somehow getting mortgages.

they wouldn't get a mortgage for £50k to buy it, they'd go for £100k for "home improvements".

you could literally do a check list of where the £50k went- holiday to disney, massive RV, pair of dirt bikes, pick up truck/4 x 4, deck/stone clad every inch of the house..................... but the bank wants paying don't they, with interest unlike their previous landlord.

so re-possessions would kick in. they'd be back asking for a free house.....................



funnily enough, if you can get a nice social housing prop and all you ever have to pay is £85 a week for life- its repaired and maintained for free for you------------ you could have a lovely quite wealthy life if that's what and where you wanted to live in. people think its all estates- its not. but those rural village homes are harder and harder to find these days.

[A.J.M]

I’ll clarify a few details for the avoidance of doubt.

My sleepover is 11pm to 7am. Currently, as I’m in Scotland, we get an hourly rate for sleepovers, it’s less than day rate though.
It used to be a set £45 a night for sleepover.
My second job has it set at £25 a night.

I’m sure Nippy wouldn’t rule out changing from an hourly rate to a set rate.

I mentioned the 127 hours as it’s a personal record for being at work in one shift. Previous being 118 and before that 113.
It’s not sustainable. I’m doing it because I have to. Not because I want to. The long shifts weren’t common... but they weren’t unknown. Every few weeks I would have to do one.

Last year I was about to change jobs, covid killed that.
So I was stuck where I am.
Throw in trying to get a mortgage and I couldn’t change jobs as it would knock the application back 3+ months.
I had to grin and bear it till everything was sorted and approved.
The kicker was seeing the 10% deposit mortgages disappear. So 15% was the lowest we could get so the hours went to getting the extra several grand needed.

[anonymous-user]

austinsmirk said:

just to expand on this our sector is rigorous when it comes to debt enforcement. and its not a case of letting people get away with it- there are massive income teams helping and assisting people get what they are due income wise, help them budget, help with advise on best energy deals.............you can get attachments from their benefits to clear debt off..

don't forget this is all interest free- unlike when you bounce on your mortgage payment.

I used to run the cities homeless services for years: I've seen it from the other end of people losing their homes. A very common thing that used to occur was people buying their "council" house- obviously discounted. they'd get all sorts of shady mortgages to do so, managing to prove income. you'd look at people who utterly failed to pay promptly and on time, forever, somehow getting mortgages.

they wouldn't get a mortgage for £50k to buy it, they'd go for £100k for "home improvements".

you could literally do a check list of where the £50k went- holiday to disney, massive RV, pair of dirt bikes, pick up truck/4 x 4, deck/stone clad every inch of the house..................... but the bank wants paying don't they, with interest unlike their previous landlord.

so re-possessions would kick in. they'd be back asking for a free house.....................

funnily enough, if you can get a nice social housing prop and all you ever have to pay is £85 a week for life- its repaired and maintained for free for you------------ you could have a lovely quite wealthy life if that's what and where you wanted to live in. people think its all estates- its not. but those rural village homes are harder and harder to find these days.

Absolutely.

As for the bit I highlighted in bold. This is very true. I have worked for a couple of housing associations who had quite a lot of nice stock in stunning rural locations. Small developments of 8 or 10 cottage style houses in really upmarket little villages etc.

Some providers still have fairly active development programs in nice rural areas.

A friend of mine just managed to get a house-swap for his Mum, from some dodgy part of Essex to a stunning village in Cumbria, and into a lovely house. It's hers for the rest of her life as long as she keeps paying £80 a week, and she will never have to worry about any repair bills. All she has to do is decorate it internally and keep it tidy.